Zoom and a flash or a fast prime?

[elliottnewcomb]

Most people do not have good flash skills, they avoid using it, based on a general distain, and poor results when they first try their flash at default strength, often over-bright with strong shadows created by the flash.

Also, many don't take photos if/when flash is needed, IOW, they are not getting the type of shots that need flash skills.

My Sony R-1 had a wonderful constant f2.8 24-120mm manual zoom lens, however, it had no Image Stabilization, and I took photos of local musicians in small music clubs with low light and motion involved twice a week for over 20 years, 8 years using the R-1, waiting for an update that never came.

I needed flash to avoid blur on moving subjects, and used a big cold shoe flash that was strong enough for large group shots and learned to cut it's flash strength, make individual adjustments shot to shot.

I learned, even cut back, in order to get consistent flash strength, always wait for the flash to fully charge, then each adjustment + or - will be relative to the last flash strength.

rx100m1,2,3,4,5 have f1.8 lenses, you often forget the camera has a tiltable flash.

now, the rx100m6 and m7 have f2.8 lens, and when needed, I use the flash, typically strength cut back, adjust shot to shot, similar to my R-1. The positioning, adjacent to the EVF when popped up, makes flexing it awkward.

However, now, my cell phone has an f1.8 lens for close low light, results so good I most often do not bring a camera with me unless planned.

rx100m6,7 have aggressive in-camera Jpeg NR, and very effective Image Stabilization, I have gotten no flash ISO 6400 photos without flash that look surprisingly good.

rx100m6, Lyle Lovett and John Hiatt; many ISO 6400

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4371620

rx100m6, NJ Symphony, NJPAC; some ISO 6400

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4371847

I tell myself I should practice using/adjusting the flash of my rx100m6, but years of not even considering using flash, and the cell phone, I simply keep forgetting to do it.

here's a link to an album in my gallery, many of the musician photos were R-1, a great many of them using the flash, in P mode, getting fast enough shutter speeds to avoid blur.

https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9701497431/albums/musicians

Dave 'Snakeman' Runyon at Robin's Nest, Linden, NJ



Not my photo, but this was typical size/lighting level at these clubs.



She was sitting at the end of the bar near the stage



I probable could do some PP, these are typically SOOC Jpegs.

I never learned S Mode back then, it was the rx100m1 that defaulted to 1/30th that forced me to learn and now happily use S Mode, adjusting SS shot to shot, 'just fast enough;, or 'as slow as possible', to help Auto ISO keep it low.

--
Elliott

 

[jhunna]

Elliot this is great! I have a few questions:

1. Did club performing artist mind the flash?
2. How was life at 1/30 shutter and flash? I know the flash can stop motion but at 1/30 there has to be motion blur right?

Thanks for anything you can share.

 

[elliottnewcomb]

Elliot this is great! I have a few questions:

1. Did club performing artist mind the flash?
2. How was life at 1/30 shutter and flash? I know the flash can stop motion but at 1/30 there has to be motion blur right?

1st, the R-1, with it's big flash (often mounted on a sturdy Monopod) is very professional looking, it gets a lot of respect.



2nd, The fans want good photos of their favorite musicians. They help you get in front of them if you are actively shooting, a mutual respect exists.

Note: using the small rx100, it get's no respect, even if wearing a Press Pass,

3rd, I became friends with the club owners, open mic hosts, and many of the musicians. I would make prints for the club's walls, musician's personal use, even give them digital copies for their online use. I helped create a few CD covers/inserts.

1/30th too slow even for some stills. Hover over any photo, you can see the exif info, speeds were typically faster and that was timing the shot while waiting for minimum movement, maximum lighting, and a trademark movement, this was early rx100m1, no flash, happily their set was bright and they are posers.



One trick I learned, in a theater, the people in front all shoot the same shot, with cell phones, the combined flash makes a wall of light, you can rush down the aisle, get a sense of their timing, use that wall of light to get better results, and scurry away just as the security guard tells you to go.

You only need a few good shots, so you wait, watch the lighting, movements, look for unique expressions



My comments are all about transitioning from the Sony R-1 to the rx100m1 in late 2012, then the m3 a few years later, then the m6 in 2018.

I changed from P mode with or without flash to S mode primarily without flash when using the rx100m1's f1.8 lens, and now using the rx100m6 with it's f2.8 lens, still by habit primarily without flash.

......................................................

Due to handheld shake, I could not get blur free stills at 1/30th with my then new rx100m1 (late 2012).

Many took their new rx100m1's on expensive vacations and also got blurred stills handheld, because the camera defaulted to 1/30th in A or P. Steadier people did ok, but not me or many others.

I had to learn S mode to force 1/60th handheld for stills. That became my default.

For motion, you speed up, but 'just fast enough', always trying to keep Auto ISO as low as possible.

specifically, with the Sony rx100m6 and m7, the In-Camera Jpeg NR advanced so that ISO 6400 yields acceptable results, still no flash.

Handheld stills, the IS was terrible, better, now very good, so I can get blur free:

rx100m1 I need 1/60th

rx100m3 I can use 1/30th

rx100m6 I can use 1/20th, thus I could use A or P mode, but I stick with S mode, and have a sense of what speed is needed as motion increases.

I also use Smart Zoom, extended optical zoom, to get up to 280mm optical handheld, and often combine that with AF/MF Toggle, using magnification assist, and waiting for something to occur, bang, finish the shot.

various makers have their versions of this

SZ Smart Zoom (in-camera OPTICAL sensor crop) (no up-scaling)
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4305652

AF/MF Toggle, MF Setup
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58890915

--
Elliott

 

[Michael Fryd]

Two of my favorite lenses are the Nikon 24120/4 and the Sony 50GM1.2. Ever since I have become proficient in flash, I am finding that I don't need the light gathering of the f1.2 lens.

I am finding if I go out into the world to shoot, I like having the crutch of the zoom and flash, as I know I have vastly decreased the likelihood of not being prepared for a shot. I also get the advantage of being prepared for a video moment.

Conversely, I like the simplicity, and compositional challenge that comes with a fast prime and using the available light. Most of the time I am using this to shoot portraits, and to make people look good in a natural environment.

Lastly, I find that my GFX100RF and a flash is a pretty good pairing, and something I have with me everyday.

Interested in what you guys like, what you prefer and why.

Do whatever makes it easier to create the images you want.

Personally, I like zooms. In terms of image quality, modern day zooms are very good. Even entry level "kit" lenses.

The disadvantage of a zoom, is that they tend to have smaller maximum apertures than primes. This isn't an issue for my style of photography.

I also use flash when needed. I prefer to use bounce flash, but that isn't always an option. I have a flash bracket that hinges. It allows me to keep the flash above the lens in either landscape or portrait orientation. It also keeps the flash in the same orientation as the sensor (wide part of the flash coverage aligns with the wide part of the sensor. Truth be told, unless I know I will be shooting a lot of non-bounce flash, I don't bother with the bracket.

One reason that I prefer zoom is that it saves me time, and makes it easier to get the image I want. I generally choose my subject distance based on the desired perspective. Then I choose a focal length to give me the desired framing. If I have zooms, I need to settle for a different perspective, or lose resolution by cropping in post processing.

When I am out in nature, I can cover the range of 10mm to 400mm with three zoom lenses. That gives me a lot of flexibility

Of course, what's right for me isn't the same as what's right for someone else. If you love shallow depth of field, you need really wide apertures, and that often means a prime.

.

In studio, I use off camera studio strobes and zooms.

 

[KPM2]

Hello jhunna

I think it also depends on the ligh and shadow look and /or whether the subject is in the bright or dark areas. If you're happy with the conditions, you don't need a flash; then it's just a question of what ISO you get and what DOF you can use. But you therefore change the given lighting conditions of the scene by 'zoom and a flash'. On the other hand, if you are not happy with the conditions, you'll need a flash, regardless of whether you use a fast prime or a zoom.

And now to those who are afraid to use flash

Due to the hazy weather, the scene had hardly any light or shadow look, and hardly any significant differences between bright and dark areas. The images would have looked bland. The flash mounted to the side solved the problem. The high ISO was necessary do to my exposure for the ambient light and my DOF choice, but more so to avoid blinding the bird with too much flash light. The flash did only delivered a low output.



It's as if I took the picture on a sunny morning with the sun low in the sky from the side.



I think it's never been easier with digital cameras that you can learn how to use and types of use a flash step by step by try and error.

best regards KPM2

 

[stratman1976]

I voted fast prime, but it is really close. It really depends on the style you are after. But the organic, soft images of a shallow depth of field prime has the upper hand for me.

I use to be a part-time pro and I am really glad I made the effort to learn how to use flash, indoors and outdoors as well as in a studio setting. I shot portraits and weddings mostly. When you have some experience, it is great to see how much possibilities and creativity that opens up

I always chuckle a bit when I come across these "I only shoot in natural light" kind of photographers. They talk about flash like it's a bad thing. That often tells me they just don't know how to use it and sell their lack of technique as an asset.

 

[GingerBeard118]

I don't like the shoot wide open, for me 2.8 is my max and i will often go 5.6 or 8 if need be so having a 1.4 is no need so to get that "light" i ether up my iso of use a flash.

 

[jhunna]

I don't like the shoot wide open, for me 2.8 is my max and i will often go 5.6 or 8 if need be so having a 1.4 is no need so to get that "light" i ether up my iso of use a flash.

I am finding this to be the case too... I would rather have a zoom with flash, than a prime. The only time I move from this is when the Prime's rending is truly special and I can't get that look any other way. Sony GM glass comes to mind, but I f1.8 glass is usually not up to par.

 

[elliottnewcomb]

Depth of Focus is related, to bright aperture and sensor size

I started with 120 film in 1966

Digital, I had my Sony R1 APS-C f2.8 for 8 years

Changing to 1" sensor, I missed the artistic isolation I could get with the APS-C f2.8

My 1st and only Full Frame sensor is the Sony RX1r with fixed f2.0 lens

My 1st use was a total exploration of shallow focus depth, you can see my friend's 1" sensor shots compared to mine

I call it my Shallow Focus Monster, you can see the difference at Icon size.

RX1r, auto museum

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4017358







--
Elliott

 

[TJ Olympus]

I think how people shoot is often less about what they like than what they know!

A GOOD photographer is an expert with a flash as well as ambient light or a mixture of the two. A mixture? Yes a good photographer is also well versed on dragging his shutter!

I shoot a minimum of 1 event per week and as many as 3 and it's all flash work with a minimum of 1000 shots per event. I can always tell the new guys, they show up without a flash or strobes.

If you're only shooting 1 person you can get away with a fast lens and shallow DOF. Two or more people and it's virtually impossible to get two people in sharp focus even at f2.8 let alone faster!

I shot a 50 1.4 prime for the first ten years, and yes, got to know it very well. Fast forward 50 years and it's all 2.8 zooms, mostly 24-70 2.8. And absolutely I use primes, but the zooms are almost as sharp, especially at f8 for landscape! Flash can be used for landscape and birds too!!!

John

I agree. I'm a prime and flash/strobe fanatic on wedding and event shoots and so are the other shooters I work with. We had a young guy last year come in to second shoot. Reception came, dark as midnight, I said "where's your flash?", he said "I don't have one", I said what ISO are you at"?, "8000, what about you?", "Me, 1250, and if you're going to do this job you need a flash and /or a strobe". He ended up getting a nice on camera flash.

Outdoors, I understand not using flash (I do anyway), but once it goes indoors, God help you if you go with "natural light" because there ain't none in 95% of the churches and venues I work. A crutch? Mmmm, so be it then, who cares. What matters most to me is giving the clients professional looking pictures and on and off camera flash gets me there. Post is easier too, one click to increase contrast, done.

I saw a guy once working a wedding with a shoulder rig contraption that let him mount a strobe on a pole that went about a foot above and behind his head and a battery pack on his belt. It looked absolutely crazy but I ended up asking to see some shots and his shots were BOSS PRO....and he was using a f/2.8 zoom.

 

[jhunna]

I think how people shoot is often less about what they like than what they know!

A GOOD photographer is an expert with a flash as well as ambient light or a mixture of the two. A mixture? Yes a good photographer is also well versed on dragging his shutter!

I shoot a minimum of 1 event per week and as many as 3 and it's all flash work with a minimum of 1000 shots per event. I can always tell the new guys, they show up without a flash or strobes.

If you're only shooting 1 person you can get away with a fast lens and shallow DOF. Two or more people and it's virtually impossible to get two people in sharp focus even at f2.8 let alone faster!

I shot a 50 1.4 prime for the first ten years, and yes, got to know it very well. Fast forward 50 years and it's all 2.8 zooms, mostly 24-70 2.8. And absolutely I use primes, but the zooms are almost as sharp, especially at f8 for landscape! Flash can be used for landscape and birds too!!!

John

I agree. I'm a prime and flash/strobe fanatic on wedding and event shoots and so are the other shooters I work with. We had a young guy last year come in to second shoot. Reception came, dark as midnight, I said "where's your flash?", he said "I don't have one", I said what ISO are you at"?, "8000, what about you?", "Me, 1250, and if you're going to do this job you need a flash and /or a strobe". He ended up getting a nice on camera flash.

Outdoors, I understand not using flash (I do anyway), but once it goes indoors, God help you if you go with "natural light" because there ain't none in 95% of the churches and venues I work. A crutch? Mmmm, so be it then, who cares. What matters most to me is giving the clients professional looking pictures and on and off camera flash gets me there. Post is easier too, one click to increase contrast, done.

My sentiments exactly! I don't see crutch as a negative, just a way of supporting what you are trying to do...

I saw a guy once working a wedding with a shoulder rig contraption that let him mount a strobe on a pole that went about a foot above and behind his head and a battery pack on his belt. It looked absolutely crazy but I ended up asking to see some shots and his shots were BOSS PRO....and he was using a f/2.8 zoom.

Would have loved to have seen this contraption and the shots.

 

[TJ Olympus]

Would have loved to have seen this contraption and the shots.

Yea, haven't seen him out in the field since, probably 3-4 years now. Probably a studio photographer that decided to shoot a wedding. In recent times, I just follow the videographers during receptions who have steady cam rigs with an LED panel mounted on a short pole attached to their rig, allows me to stop down for crispy shots!

 

[JohnSil]

Two of my favorite lenses are the Nikon 24120/4 and the Sony 50GM1.2. Ever since I have become proficient in flash, I am finding that I don't need the light gathering of the f1.2 lens.

I am finding if I go out into the world to shoot, I like having the crutch of the zoom and flash, as I know I have vastly decreased the likelihood of not being prepared for a shot. I also get the advantage of being prepared for a video moment.

Conversely, I like the simplicity, and compositional challenge that comes with a fast prime and using the available light. Most of the time I am using this to shoot portraits, and to make people look good in a natural environment.

Lastly, I find that my GFX100RF and a flash is a pretty good pairing, and something I have with me everyday.

Interested in what you guys like, what you prefer and why.

to use the 50GM1.2 wide open, you will get a shallow DOF which means focusing will be harder, and not everything in focus (esp for social occasions) so many people end up shooting it stopped down....leading back to the flash !! lol

Depends on your distance from your subject, but I get your point. You stand back far enough you can get everyone focused at f1.2. Granted a high MP sensor helps...

back in the day I liked the sigma 30/1.4 and got many keepers with it

although with todays sensors having such clean high-iso...

You said...., "Depends on your distance from your subject, but I get your point. You stand back far enough you can get everyone focused at f1.2. Granted a high MP sensor helps..."

I looked up the DOF for an 85mm f1.2. I put in TWENTY FEET!!! At 20' the DOF was NINE INCHES!!! If you have 5 people they won't be able to stand in a line and will need to arc or those on the ends are not gonna be sharp. At 40' you have 36"!

At what crowded event do you have 20', let alone 40'!!? A 50mm iOS not much different!!

John

 

[jhunna]

Two of my favorite lenses are the Nikon 24120/4 and the Sony 50GM1.2. Ever since I have become proficient in flash, I am finding that I don't need the light gathering of the f1.2 lens.

I am finding if I go out into the world to shoot, I like having the crutch of the zoom and flash, as I know I have vastly decreased the likelihood of not being prepared for a shot. I also get the advantage of being prepared for a video moment.

Conversely, I like the simplicity, and compositional challenge that comes with a fast prime and using the available light. Most of the time I am using this to shoot portraits, and to make people look good in a natural environment.

Lastly, I find that my GFX100RF and a flash is a pretty good pairing, and something I have with me everyday.

Interested in what you guys like, what you prefer and why.

to use the 50GM1.2 wide open, you will get a shallow DOF which means focusing will be harder, and not everything in focus (esp for social occasions) so many people end up shooting it stopped down....leading back to the flash !! lol

Depends on your distance from your subject, but I get your point. You stand back far enough you can get everyone focused at f1.2. Granted a high MP sensor helps...

back in the day I liked the sigma 30/1.4 and got many keepers with it

although with todays sensors having such clean high-iso...

You said...., "Depends on your distance from your subject, but I get your point. You stand back far enough you can get everyone focused at f1.2. Granted a high MP sensor helps..."

I looked up the DOF for an 85mm f1.2. I put in TWENTY FEET!!! At 20' the DOF was NINE INCHES!!! If you have 5 people they won't be able to stand in a line and will need to arc or those on the ends are not gonna be sharp. At 40' you have 36"!

At what crowded event do you have 20', let alone 40'!!? A 50mm iOS not much different!!

John

No one is taking an 85mm to a crowded event to shoot group shots. There is research and there is actual experience.

 

[Smaug01]

...it'd be the fast prime.

(longer answer follows)

What I usually do is bring my favorite zoom, the Z NIKKOR 24-120 f/4 S, a small bounce flash, (SB-400) and a fast-but-humble prime, the Z NIKKOR 40 mm f/2. I could make do with the slow 24-50 if I were watching my ounces. It's a reasonably small kit, as full frame goes.

If I know I'll have a low, white ceiling and I'm not concerned with impacting the mood of the place, I use the bounce flash & zoom lens. No bounce = no deal, as direct flash in low light looks horrible. In that case, I either let the ISO go to the moon or swap on my fast prime or both.

Doing candid people photography, which is my favorite subject matter, I really enjoy not needing a flash any more. Subjects are more cooperative when they're not being blinded and the mood of the place is not interrupted by bright flashes.

I find faster than f/2.8 mostly unnecessary, because depth of field is too shallow. So, f/2.8 and let the ISO go where it needs to.

 

[elliottnewcomb]

Group Shots, you don't see many posted on the forums.

You need both a wide lens and/or to move further back which is too far away for most built-in small flashes.

I want them to put the hot shoe back on, and rather than pop-up, a small hot-shoe flash in the box, then most people will never use the little flash but we would have the option of the small flash, or purchasing and using a big controllable flash. Next is a nice directional hot shoe mic which makes natural sounds in videos possible. Now your talkin!















--
Elliott

 

[elliottnewcomb]

Bobby was the life of the party, until he wasn't







--
Elliott

 

[jhunna]

...it'd be the fast prime.

(longer answer follows)

What I usually do is bring my favorite zoom, the Z NIKKOR 24-120 f/4 S, a small bounce flash, (SB-400) and a fast-but-humble prime, the Z NIKKOR 40 mm f/2. I could make do with the slow 24-50 if I were watching my ounces. It's a reasonably small kit, as full frame goes.

If I know I'll have a low, white ceiling and I'm not concerned with impacting the mood of the place, I use the bounce flash & zoom lens. No bounce = no deal, as direct flash in low light looks horrible. In that case, I either let the ISO go to the moon or swap on my fast prime or both.

Doing candid people photography, which is my favorite subject matter, I really enjoy not needing a flash any more. Subjects are more cooperative when they're not being blinded and the mood of the place is not interrupted by bright flashes.

I find faster than f/2.8 mostly unnecessary, because depth of field is too shallow. So, f/2.8 and let the ISO go where it needs to.

I follow this process to, as people are also my favorite subjects. I find, depending on the event, that flash isn't as much of a distraction after the first few photos. The 24120/4 is a brilliant zoom, so it makes using it easier.

No flash, the Sony 50GM1.2 is my go to...

 

[CamilloAndrew]

I use a fast, 2.8 constant aperture, short zoom - 17-55 - along with a small flash if needed. But I find even at iso 16,000 I have no problem with images.

 

[TJ Olympus]

If I know I'll have a low, white ceiling and I'm not concerned with impacting the mood of the place, I use the bounce flash & zoom lens. No bounce = no deal, as direct flash in low light looks horrible. In that case, I either let the ISO go to the moon or swap on my fast prime or both.

Agree about the look of direct flash in low light, terrible, a big no-no, unless the flash is way higher, like on a stand off to the side and even then it's not great.

I use strap on white bounce cards on my flashes when there's no ceiling to bounce off during low light events....which is like, 90% of the time! These cards have a bigger area than the flashes' built-in little pull up white card, allowing for a nice spread when the subjects are 4-6ft away. Can stay at f/4 and around ISO 2000-2500, varying flash power between 1/32 and 1/64. Makes it a heck of a lot easier in post.