If 5dmk4 has no new sensor

[rwbaron]

By your timeline, Sony probably moved away from Bayer sensors and into some exotic new way of capturing light. Supposedly, the next generation will be coming in April.

You could be right.

Isn't Sony the one that had the recent announcement of a photon counting sensor?

not really - it's a patent application for one.

The important thing is they're working on it (spending money, time & resources).

 

[rrccad]

By your timeline, Sony probably moved away from Bayer sensors and into some exotic new way of capturing light. Supposedly, the next generation will be coming in April.

You could be right.

Isn't Sony the one that had the recent announcement of a photon counting sensor?

not really - it's a patent application for one.

The important thing is they're working on it (spending money, time & resources).

not really. a patent application is done at nearly the start of the process, you don't do work until you at least get through the submissions and get a patent approved - especially for something like this.

it can take up to 5+ years before that patent is even approved - if ever.

just like the bazillion sensor related patent applications that canon has filed over the past 2-3 years.

CR, CW,etc .. miss most of canon's patents. they've already filed 600 applications so far this year, and by a quick scan, around 40% of them are photographic in nature.

 

[clager]

So what would be the point of a new camera if its not a new sensor? the new DS and RS have new sensors but the DR according to Canon is the same as the MIII.

I am sure it will be a 36MP cam with a new sensor. How's that!

 

[davev8]

its just not acceptable that I will have to pay so much for a camera which is already beaten by smaller sensors and cheaper cameras, and the leaps in sensor tech and what will soon come from panasonic have me worried

I always find comments like this amazing -- and the reason why I tend to think that most of this DR discussion is driven by nothing more than DR envy on the part of many Canon users. There is nothing said about photography here, it looks like you just want a better number on some spec sheet or a higher rating in a review.

you do have to wonder.

how on earth did we take photos with digital cameras when there was only 9EV of DR instead of even the miniscule 11EV on canon sensors?

with out looking is the 6D 12EV?

Well, everybody worked in the past with 1MB hd, why can't we just keep that way? .

1MB......i not know im not that old ;P

 

[Ultradan]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

5DIV will come with new sensor tech as it would otherwise kill off one of Canon's strongest marketing points: the 5d-series.

Even if Canon lags Nikon/SONY sensor quality and seem unlikely to catch up anytime soon Canon has said they are committed to improving their sensors. Any 5DIV will certainly include some sort of "improved" sensor tech.

Canon lags in one aspect only: DR at base ISO. Compared to the A7R/A7II (bit not Nikon), it still has better DR at high ISO, where it really matters, no visible sensor reflections or color shift. It has much better colors, too. And this is just the 6D, we do not really know what the 5DS will bring.

I wonder how many people actually take photos with their equipment.

"I wonder how many people actually take photos with their equipment."

I don't take photos I just take Dynamic range.... then spend hours scrutinising every range to see if its dynamic enough.....

 

[David Hull]

Canon is in the business to sell cameras and make a profit to satisfy investors. They've lagged behind the competition for several years on both resolution and low ISO DR and their strategy is brilliant when you think about it. They have this massive pent up demand for both with their customer base but they intro the ultra high res camera first without any significant improvement to low ISO DR because they know people will still flock to buy them like Hershey bars. They wait a bit and then intro a low (by todays' standards) resolution FF but with new sensor architecture and state of the art low ISO DR and probably other benefits and sell even more boatloads of cameras. Then a few years from now they announce they finally put it all together in one camera and everyone again beats their door down to get one. Why sell people only 1 camera now when you can sell them 3 over several years.

Don't think for one moment that Canon can't produce the uber high res high DR camera today.

Canon plays the market like a fiddle and much better than the competition when you think about it.

Bob

It cannot be done with the current electrical design. IMO, if they could have done it, they would have done it -- but they didn't. I think that the marketing guys told the engineering guys "we need a high resolution camera with minimum development effort" and that is what we see in the new cameras. However, I think they will be fine, they just won't satisfy the DxO worshipers. I suspect that the pattern noise will be well controlled though. I suspect that they are doing that through SW and calibration.

I definitely agree that Canon could produce a D800 if they wanted to, but they will have to move to an architecture that is optimized for this one corner case. They can either develop it themselves, or buy it like Nikon did.

--

http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

 

[Johnrr44]

Agreed. I worked for a high tech firm, and they lived accordingly.

 

[bronxbombers4]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

yes

I'm already starting the move. (made tricky though by fact I got super-teles years ago when they are cheap, so the move is sort of expensive and I've stalled out a bit, maybe get a sony+adapter for the moment until more funds get built up)

 

[rwbaron]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

yes

I'm already starting the move. (made tricky though by fact I got super-teles years ago when they are cheap, so the move is sort of expensive and I've stalled out a bit, maybe get a sony+adapter for the moment until more funds get built up)

Sorry to hear that but I don't blame you. If can you might want to hang on to the super teles until the 5Dk4 is announced. I have a hunch it'll have a sensor with new architecture.

Bob

 

[rwbaron]

By your timeline, Sony probably moved away from Bayer sensors and into some exotic new way of capturing light. Supposedly, the next generation will be coming in April.

You could be right.

Isn't Sony the one that had the recent announcement of a photon counting sensor?

not really - it's a patent application for one.

The important thing is they're working on it (spending money, time & resources).

not really. a patent application is done at nearly the start of the process, you don't do work until you at least get through the submissions and get a patent approved - especially for something like this.

it can take up to 5+ years before that patent is even approved - if ever.

just like the bazillion sensor related patent applications that canon has filed over the past 2-3 years.

CR, CW,etc .. miss most of canon's patents. they've already filed 600 applications so far this year, and by a quick scan, around 40% of them are photographic in nature.

OK then. Some one at Sony got up one morning and decided to file a patent for a photon counting sensor. Just thought it was a nice idea.

Happy?

 

[rwbaron]

Canon is in the business to sell cameras and make a profit to satisfy investors. They've lagged behind the competition for several years on both resolution and low ISO DR and their strategy is brilliant when you think about it. They have this massive pent up demand for both with their customer base but they intro the ultra high res camera first without any significant improvement to low ISO DR because they know people will still flock to buy them like Hershey bars. They wait a bit and then intro a low (by todays' standards) resolution FF but with new sensor architecture and state of the art low ISO DR and probably other benefits and sell even more boatloads of cameras. Then a few years from now they announce they finally put it all together in one camera and everyone again beats their door down to get one. Why sell people only 1 camera now when you can sell them 3 over several years.

Don't think for one moment that Canon can't produce the uber high res high DR camera today.

Canon plays the market like a fiddle and much better than the competition when you think about it.

Bob

It cannot be done with the current electrical design. IMO, if they could have done it, they would have done it -- but they didn't. I think that the marketing guys told the engineering guys "we need a high resolution camera with minimum development effort" and that is what we see in the new cameras. However, I think they will be fine, they just won't satisfy the DxO worshipers. I suspect that the pattern noise will be well controlled though. I suspect that they are doing that through SW and calibration.

My point was that Canon has the resources and technical prowess to design and manufacture a sensor with new architecture but they would have had to start several years ago. They just choose not to do it but no one really knows what lurks in their future.

I definitely agree that Canon could produce a D800 if they wanted to, but they will have to move to an architecture that is optimized for this one corner case. They can either develop it themselves, or buy it like Nikon did.

 

[David Hull]

Canon is in the business to sell cameras and make a profit to satisfy investors. They've lagged behind the competition for several years on both resolution and low ISO DR and their strategy is brilliant when you think about it. They have this massive pent up demand for both with their customer base but they intro the ultra high res camera first without any significant improvement to low ISO DR because they know people will still flock to buy them like Hershey bars. They wait a bit and then intro a low (by todays' standards) resolution FF but with new sensor architecture and state of the art low ISO DR and probably other benefits and sell even more boatloads of cameras. Then a few years from now they announce they finally put it all together in one camera and everyone again beats their door down to get one. Why sell people only 1 camera now when you can sell them 3 over several years.

Don't think for one moment that Canon can't produce the uber high res high DR camera today.

Canon plays the market like a fiddle and much better than the competition when you think about it.

Bob

It cannot be done with the current electrical design. IMO, if they could have done it, they would have done it -- but they didn't. I think that the marketing guys told the engineering guys "we need a high resolution camera with minimum development effort" and that is what we see in the new cameras. However, I think they will be fine, they just won't satisfy the DxO worshipers. I suspect that the pattern noise will be well controlled though. I suspect that they are doing that through SW and calibration.

My point was that Canon has the resources and technical prowess to design and manufacture a sensor with new architecture but they would have had to start several years ago. They just choose not to do it but no one really knows what lurks in their future.

Yep. Maybe they DID start several years ago and are still trying to make it work. It took Sony a while to get theirs as good as it is.

I definitely agree that Canon could produce a D800 if they wanted to, but they will have to move to an architecture that is optimized for this one corner case. They can either develop it themselves, or buy it like Nikon did.

 

[bronxbombers4]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

yes

I'm already starting the move. (made tricky though by fact I got super-teles years ago when they are cheap, so the move is sort of expensive and I've stalled out a bit, maybe get a sony+adapter for the moment until more funds get built up)

Sorry to hear that but I don't blame you. If can you might want to hang on to the super teles until the 5Dk4 is announced. I have a hunch it'll have a sensor with new architecture.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

Yeah I won't be able to buy new ones in that time frame anyway so I will be forced to hold on that long anyway.

Why do you think the 5D4 would go new process if the dedicated studio/landscape cam, where new process would or at least should have been the most important model for that, didn't get new process?

The CR rumors claims the 1DX2 will go to some new process and fix up DR first.

That seems weird to me. The 5Ds and 5D4 get stuck with old process and then the one that arguably needs it least of the three, the 1DX2, is the one that they give it to??

Anyway I'll see, with the costs to switch when owning big glass it's gonna take quite some time so I'll be Canon+Sony mix by 5D4 release time I think and not to Nikon yet. If they really do finally do something good with the 5D4 I'll be back and dump off the Sony.

The fact that CPN today was more or less bragging that the 5Ds manages to match 5D3 for dynamic range, the fact that they made the cropped modes on the 5Ds jpg only! and the fact that they claimed that going to cropped JPG mode on the 5Ds makes up for leaving your TC accidentally at home gives me nearly zero faith in Canon anymore.

How does any of that make good sense?

 

[rwbaron]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

yes

I'm already starting the move. (made tricky though by fact I got super-teles years ago when they are cheap, so the move is sort of expensive and I've stalled out a bit, maybe get a sony+adapter for the moment until more funds get built up)

Sorry to hear that but I don't blame you. If can you might want to hang on to the super teles until the 5Dk4 is announced. I have a hunch it'll have a sensor with new architecture.

Bob

 

[Teila Day]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

silly... for *most* photographers in my opinion, to "leave" Canon (as if Canon is a spouse or something) for another manufacturer just because of a sensor that isn't awesome, but not horrible either?

Will a paying client likely notice the difference between a new sensor and the current Canon 5D3 sensor after processing and printing the file? That's the question that I'd ask myself. If there's not much of a benefit to be gained then what's the point? ... unless I'm just in it to collect gear- and I'm not.

I still shoot Nikon (and Canon), but I didn't bank on them coming out with a really high-res camera; I banked on Canon about 7 years ago, because they're historically consistently progressive in the areas that matter more to me. (resolution, lenses, raw file colour, etc.) I always thought it was nuts not to have a TC/extender built-in to super telephoto lenses. Years later Canon offered the current 200-400. I'm hoping Canon follows suit with the 400 f2.8, 500, and 600 lenses.

Seems more sensible to just purchase the product that best suits your wants or needs. If you're in business to make money, then just buy the product line that offers the best all-around financial advantage. Rather simple to me.

Best in photography to you and everyone.

--

Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

 

[bronxbombers4]

Will you leave Canon? I think I will have no choice!

yes

I'm already starting the move. (made tricky though by fact I got super-teles years ago when they are cheap, so the move is sort of expensive and I've stalled out a bit, maybe get a sony+adapter for the moment until more funds get built up)

Sorry to hear that but I don't blame you. If can you might want to hang on to the super teles until the 5Dk4 is announced. I have a hunch it'll have a sensor with new architecture.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

Yeah I won't be able to buy new ones in that time frame anyway so I will be forced to hold on that long anyway.

Why do you think the 5D4 would go new process if the dedicated studio/landscape cam, where new process would or at least should have been the most important model for that, didn't get new process?

It's been Canon's way. I remember when they announced the last 1Ds model with the old small low res LCD and then very soon after came out with the 3" high res in like an xxD or maybe even a Rebel. I thought wow, people who spent $7 or 8K on a camera just got one with old LCD tech and are stuck with it for several years.

As I said in a prior post in this thread Canon is in business to sell cameras and make profits and they do that better than anyone. They know they'll move tons of the new high MP 5D's due to all the pent up demand so why should they give away both high res and high DR in the same camera. They can intro a lower res 5D4 with new sensor architecture and wide DR finally but it won't have the resolution but they'll still sell tons to people like us that have been waiting for a high DR Canon body. This way they sell a lot of their base 2 cameras instead of just one. Eventually they come out with a high res high DR body and sell tons more. It's smart business just like withholding simple firmware features in lower priced models.

Well in that actually does make it sound a bit more possible. Canon these days does love to deliver only one or two things and once and hold back one or two big so they can try to maximize the milk. it seems a bit of a gamble to go there with the landscape cam, but I guess so far they have not been bitten too badly and everyone defends whatever they do anyway so....

(Maybe they go 4k for 5D4, high MP for 5Ds and high fps and DR for 1DX2 and wait for next round though to give the DR to the 5 series though?)

The CR rumors claims the 1DX2 will go to some new process and fix up DR first.

Would make sense but I don't think that's Canon's way of doing business. The 1Dx is mostly PJ's and sports shooters shooting at higher ISO's and JPEG's to boot so I don't think wide low ISO DR is all that important on that camera. Even the D4S is not Nikon's best in that regard.

exactly, so it was weird to see it CR2

but weird has been the Canon way in recent years, nothing makes entire sense

That seems weird to me. The 5Ds and 5D4 get stuck with old process and then the one that arguably needs it least of the three, the 1DX2, is the one that they give it to??

Consider that this is Canon.

yup

Anyway I'll see, with the costs to switch when owning big glass it's gonna take quite some time so I'll be Canon+Sony mix by 5D4 release time I think and not to Nikon yet. If they really do finally do something good with the 5D4 I'll be back and dump off the Sony.

The fact that CPN today was more or less bragging that the 5Ds manages to match 5D3 for dynamic range, the fact that they made the cropped modes on the 5Ds jpg only! and the fact that they claimed that going to cropped JPG mode on the 5Ds makes up for leaving your TC accidentally at home gives me nearly zero faith in Canon anymore.

I lost faith in them about a year ago.

yeah, I was actually seeing bad writing on the wall pre-Nikon going FF, everything their rep said back then hinted at all that has to come, nobody believed me then, but sadly it seems I was right....

How does any of that make good sense?

It doesn't but Canon's become the GM of the camera industry.

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

yeah

 

[bronxbombers4]

Canon is in the business to sell cameras and make a profit to satisfy investors. They've lagged behind the competition for several years on both resolution and low ISO DR and their strategy is brilliant when you think about it. They have this massive pent up demand for both with their customer base but they intro the ultra high res camera first without any significant improvement to low ISO DR because they know people will still flock to buy them like Hershey bars. They wait a bit and then intro a low (by todays' standards) resolution FF but with new sensor architecture and state of the art low ISO DR and probably other benefits and sell even more boatloads of cameras. Then a few years from now they announce they finally put it all together in one camera and everyone again beats their door down to get one. Why sell people only 1 camera now when you can sell them 3 over several years.

Don't think for one moment that Canon can't produce the uber high res high DR camera today.

Canon plays the market like a fiddle and much better than the competition when you think about it.

Bob

--

http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

We'll see if they carried it one generation too far.

At some point you think it will bite them, pushing the milking just one time too far....

 

[Oilman]

[No message]

 

[Hans Kruse]

This in no way means one gets rid of their Canon gear. The OP has converging interests, some of which has no skin tone issues (which affect jpeg only btw), and I am suggesting one way to satisfy those interests. Complaining incessantly may have its long term benefit but at the moment:

Skin tones or other differences in color rendition is not only jgp from what I see shooting both Canon and Nikon. Even if the cameras are calibrated which I always do using an x-rite colorchecker and generate a profile for Lightroom (ACR) for each kamera. There are differences due to the Bayer filters that makes it impossible to match the exact same colors from two different kameras like e.g. the 5D3 and the D810. Sometimes I like the Nikon colors best and sometimes Canon

 

[Rick Knepper]

This in no way means one gets rid of their Canon gear. The OP has converging interests, some of which has no skin tone issues (which affect jpeg only btw), and I am suggesting one way to satisfy those interests. Complaining incessantly may have its long term benefit but at the moment:

Skin tones or other differences in color rendition is not only jgp from what I see shooting both Canon and Nikon. Even if the cameras are calibrated which I always do using an x-rite colorchecker and generate a profile for Lightroom (ACR) for each kamera. There are differences due to the Bayer filters that makes it impossible to match the exact same colors from two different kameras like e.g. the 5D3 and the D810.

I too use both brands.

I know that I have been able to strip down RAWs from both brands to the point that the resulting images look identical. Don't know how we would resolve these different experiences.

I agree that when not purposely trying to do this, each brand will produce different 'looks'. Even different cameras of a given brand may have a unique 'signature'.

I reject the idea that a skin tone or any color can't be made to look like whatever a skilled PS user wants it to look like.

However, this really wasn't the point of my post.

Sometimes I like the Nikon colors best and sometimes Canon

Or is it? What you just said here illuminates my point regarding diversification.