Use JPEG and forget RAW?!

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Do you shoot Weddings? I do and I can tell you no matter how good you are in JPEG your not good enough to make changes in the split second which means getting the shot or missing the shot, and you don't have a second chance.
Agreed - and the loss in resolution due to NR smudging even at Base ISO doesn`t exactly give you the best start to making large prints or cropping either .

a lot of scenes, especially at weddings require careful DR control PER SHOT which only RAW can offer - the cameras fast`n`crude Wide-DR screw-ups can ruin a JPG more than help improve it ..

JPGs IMO have three purposes - 1:- controlled environment shooting such as product photography to save time 2:- using them as proofs to weed out the keepers from a large shoot 3:- happysnaps which you could use your phone or a megazoom bridgecam or pocket compact for anyway

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** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **
 
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I know I shouldn't rise to this but ...

Mike Johnston's quote the other day seems appropriate here ..

"Making a picture that's technically what you want is where photography begins, not where it ends."
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.
I'm amused by your presumption that thousands of experienced and skilled photographers "do not know how to shoot a perfect jpeg on the spot"
They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.
For many, photography is a creative process, not simply recording a scene. Part of creativity is interpreting the image. Many great landscape photographs result from the photographer reproducing the effect the scene had on him/her.
I saw an exhibit of prints of Ansel Adams's most famous photo, Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico. Over the years, he printed a number of different versions, each with a different look. Which one was how the scene "really was"? I guess he was like one of those darn raw shooters, who can't get it right the first time. :-)
The fact is that many scenes CANNOT be accurately recorded - the dynamic range is too wide. RAW gives us much more scope to manage highlight/shadow detail than jpg. And yes, it does need to be managed.
Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
RAW should not be a "crutch" for poor photography (garbage in, garbage out). But it offers some advantages over jpg, simply because you are starting with more data.

An image may need manipulation for a variety of reasons - is the final image for screen or print? What size print? What lighting conditions? The masters will prepare an image differently to best suit the intended output (which might include the type of paper and/or printer used).
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.
I know I shouldn't feed you, but..... I shoot with a Pany G2. It is not capable of creating a useable jpeg in a number of simple situations. It is not alone in that respect. In RAW I am able to see the picture I took and want to keep. Why should I suffer loss of images I want to keep just because you don't like the way I work?
The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back,
Rubbish!
i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
and I for one look forward to being awed by your expertise - perhaps you could show us some examples please? Oh, and some of the not so good stuff as well?
You understand exactly what i meant, learn to shoot in JPEG and benefit from all the advantages JPEG gives and after that you will be more satisfied i am sure of that, no hard feelings and i am not arrogant, i am just trying to help people with our passion for photo and film.
If what you are trying to say is get it right in camera and don't rely on the computer to fix things, I couldn't agree with you more. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what format you shoot in.

But you have stated this very badly by alienating many photographers who know this (some of us have many years of shooting Kodachrome under their belts - you don't get much more demanding for camera technique than that).

So while we are perfectly capable of shooting jpg, we choose not to - the replies to your post will, I hope, enlighten you.
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.
Instead why not consider a different objective for the image capture? When I click the shutter the objective is to best capture the range of tones so I have the most latitude to create an image with my feel, rather than create the best a mechanical copy.
They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.
Who is to say what is the most pleasing image? Many people don't agree that photography is supposed to be like a perfect zerox machine copy.
Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
Exact copy is a narrow view of photography that limits one's individual interpretation. This doesn't even sound like fun.

In my way of thinking the raw image is simply my best attempt at capturing the image with focus and dynamic range to provide the most flexibility in developing it into it's final interpretation. There's more opportunity to come up with a honed final image with your own interpretation using a large monitor, than trying to tweak a few jpg parameters when taking the shot.
 
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The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
The only things I do RAW are sushi, (half-shell) oysters and salads. My steaks medium-rare and my (gourmet) burgers medium. Everything else - cooked.

I like my pics cooked well done by a JPEG engine - I can't remember the last time I shot RAW. If a camera's JPEG engine is lousy, I'll not consider it. Why JPEG only? Simple - I don't have the time nor talent to try to beat the camera's.
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
Shooting JPEG is fine. Shooting raw is fine. Raw files are more flexible.
 
The OP has a point that I like: the time taken to make the decisions in the field about the final image before shooting in JPEG, develops the photographer's ability to pre-vision the image -- and ultimately I think that makes for a more skilled photographer than one who lapses into the mentality "the basic subject is interesting, I will take a snap and try to make something of it later, but not sure what that might be just yet".
Actually I wish people would spend more time making sure their subject is interesting as opposed to spending time fiddling around to get a perfect JPG with no PP'ing later. I've already seen enough stunningly perfect ducks... zzz... flowers... zzz... squirrels... zzz... zzz...

I don't care how much time someone spends taking a photo or in post processing it, because whether it's a photo I took or one someone else took, all I am worried about is the end result. Just as most people won't ask 'Did you use a Nikon or a Canon?' they also won't ask 'How much time did you spend in PP'ing?' If they like the image, that's all that matters to both of us.
 
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It makes the assumption that everyone is just trying to replicate exactly what they see
And depending on where you look at an overall scene, your eyes adjust for 'exposure' and compensate for varying 'white balance'... no single setting for a taken image can do that. You may need to pull up the shadows to bring out some detail, or tone down a highlight to restore some details.

As always, everyone has their own preference but mine is to make the best photo, not necessarily to make it a perfect representation of something (unless it is something I am selling on Ebay, in which case reality must rule).
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
The only things I do RAW are sushi, (half-shell) oysters and salads. My steaks medium-rare and my (gourmet) burgers medium. Everything else - cooked.

I like my pics cooked well done by a JPEG engine - I can't remember the last time I shot RAW. If a camera's JPEG engine is lousy, I'll not consider it. Why JPEG only? Simple - I don't have the time nor talent to try to beat the camera's.
There are a lot more advantages to discover in JPEG e.g. speed, burst, etc. etc. just think about all the possibility's you do not have in RAW.
 
I am an idiot. I only want to be thinking about composition and exposure while shooting, not composition, exposure and what silly setting from the last image I left on and need to remember to reset/turn off/change. Using raw is sort-of like 10-15 years ago shooting film. Just shoot and get it "right", whatever right is, later.
Totally agree! I would rather try for the best image and composition, let the camera and its fancy systems handle the capture settings as much as possible, and fine tune the result later for the shots that I care about afterward.
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
The only things I do RAW are sushi, (half-shell) oysters and salads. My steaks medium-rare and my (gourmet) burgers medium. Everything else - cooked.

I like my pics cooked well done by a JPEG engine - I can't remember the last time I shot RAW. If a camera's JPEG engine is lousy, I'll not consider it. Why JPEG only? Simple - I don't have the time nor talent to try to beat the camera's.
There are a lot more advantages to discover in JPEG e.g. speed, burst, etc. etc. just think about all the possibility's you do not have in RAW.
In camera processing is all that's missing from RAW, but that's the point (duh). It doesn't matter which workflow one chooses, as long as s/he can get the results they expect.

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...Bob, NYC
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"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobtullis/
http://www.bobtullis.com
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The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
What is the perfect jpeg and how does the relatively limited processor in the camera produce it?

There are limitations which you as a photographer have no control over.
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Have Fun
Photo Pete
 
It may not have been your intention, but the wording of your post serves only to antagonize and create controversy -- why?

I happen to be a Jpeg shooter, almost exclusively -- and I feel I have valid reasons. However, your dogmatic assertions regarding Raw shooters are pure nonsense. It seems that your attitude is as equally offense and off target as 'Raw snobs' who look down there noses at Jpeg shooters as being inept, lazy people who don't care about image quality.

If you wanted to make a valid point about the benefits of shooting Jpeg only, why not word your post in a way that indicates why you Jpeg capture format, rather than attack Raw shooters as being unable to get it right at the time of capture.

Your premise would equally condemn photography greats such as Ansel Adams, Edward and Brett Weston, etc. as being unable to 'get it right' on the negative, because they engaged in extensive printing manipulation.
After being here long enough, one learns to see the forest and not just the trees. That's why this thread is much like so many others:

1. State a position. (For camera choice / brand / viewfinder type / zoom vs prime / etc. )

2. Use the rationale behind that choice to demonstrate that one's choice elevates them above other people, who must be stupid or misguided to feel otherwise.
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
If you cook a frozen TV dinner absolutely perfectly, it comes out so good you need never waste time actually cooking REAL food at home.

tvdin06.jpg
 
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The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.
I know I shouldn't feed you, but..... I shoot with a Pany G2. It is not capable of creating a useable jpeg in a number of simple situations. It is not alone in that respect. In RAW I am able to see the picture I took and want to keep. Why should I suffer loss of images I want to keep just because you don't like the way I work?
The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back,
Rubbish!
i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
and I for one look forward to being awed by your expertise - perhaps you could show us some examples please? Oh, and some of the not so good stuff as well?
You understand exactly what i meant, learn to shoot in JPEG and benefit from all the advantages JPEG gives and after that you will be more satisfied i am sure of that, no hard feelings and i am not arrogant, i am just trying to help people with our passion for photo and film.
learn to process in RAW and benefit from all the advantages RAW gives and after that you will be more satisfied i am sure of that.

Spend a few minutes on my website. It's in my signature. In many cases, JPEG simply wouldn't deliver what I need. Not everything that I can do in Lightroom can be done on the back of a camera, and for a JPEG with 256 brightness levels does not afford me as much space to do what I need to do as does a 4096-level RAW.

The reality is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both in equal measure. This biggest mistake anyone can make is the belief that there is only one right way to do something.

--
http://www.photoklarno.com
 
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The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.
The real problem here is that many raw shooters don't know how to achieve an optimal raw exposure. They expose for the "perfect JPEG" as you put it and, therefore, do not achieve the biggest potential advantage of shooting raw. See bottom of post for more information

As an aside, the notion that one type of shooter is a better, smarter or more knowledgeable photographer simply because they shoot one way or the other is absurd. The only thing such a claim proves is that the person making the claim is NOT among the better, smarter and more knowledgeable photographers.
They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.
And how would you know that's the case? And how do you know that your "perfect jpeg" that looked "perfect" on you camera's LCD or EVF in the field looks perfect on your monitor or your target audience's monitors? What about when it's printed on glossy paper with a dye-based printer? What about when it's printed on matte paper with a pigment-based printer?

And what's the correct white balance? The WB that looks "identical" when your eyes are adjusted to the scene or the white balance that looks correct when you're viewing the reulting image under very different lighting conditions?
Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.
JPEG shooters can take images to the extremes just as easily as raw shooters. Regardless, it's a question of taste and not a question of format.
The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
Most photographers who choose to shoot JPEG+raw are exposing for the JPEG (what looks right to them in the EVF or what the in-camera metering is telling them to do). If they were really exposing for optimal RAW capture, they'd be utilizing an ETTR strategy based on monitoring critical highlight exposure and intelligent increase of ISO as a last resort. That strategy will maximize dynamic range and minimize noise with often clearly visible advantages in increased detail and decreased noise in shadows, blue-skies and other lower midtones, decreased posterization in tonal gradients, decreased blown highlights in clouds and light sources. However, it will very often result in the jpeg being too bright overall or too dark overall with all sorts of shadow/highlight problems that can't be satisfactorily corrected in postprocessing. The ONLY valid reason to shoot JPEG+raw if you're primarily a raw shooter is to get the benefits of viewing the magnified jpeg to check on correct focus/resolution post capture.

So...your original claim has a kernal of truth to it with respect to raw shooters who don't know how to correctly expose for raw (and there are many out there in that boat), but in the broader sense your claim is complete hooey. If you know what you're doing, shooting raw will almost always be the better option for getting the best image quality.
 
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On the other hand a professional digital printer commented that to actually see the detail hidden in a file you have to up-rez and print from there. Strange idea but he prints for big names at gallery sizes.
He probably has a process that works that he doesn't fully understand technically. My theory of what he's talking about: Photoshop is better at interpolation than a printer's internal software and you tend to get finer results supplying a certain resolution file to your printer (Epson printers are most comfortable at 360ppi, for example).

But there is no "detail hidden in a file". It's all there, otherwise we'd have no way to extract it.

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http://www.photoklarno.com
 
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Which in-camera JPEG setting brings out the best in your chicken is no less a creative decision than moving sliders in Lightroom.
I prefer to choose my chicken free range and of best quality. Not sure what the ready meal manufacturers criteria is though.
--
Have Fun
Photo Pete
 
The biggest problem with the RAW shooters they do not know how to shoot a perfect JPEG on the spot.

They go to their computer (time consuming) and they are forgotten how the scene really was and than they give a certain twist to their photo's thinking that was the original scene.

Do the test and you should be glad, do not use the extremes because that photo was not good enough right from the start.

The RAW shooters show you always very extreme lighting examples and think or say look at that what i have gain back, i say shoot your JPEG properly and than you gain all the profit from JPEG shooting.
Looks like someone doesn't understand RAW :)
 
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