What is the fasination with in body IS ?

To rephrase your own words:

You have to pay for IS in every lens you buy and if it fails (which
as a mechanical system it will eventually do) it will be expensive
to fix and you will also be without your very expensive lens
until it returns. With AS, I can grab another body or shoot (gasp)
film.
With IS in the lens (which is less likely to fail, just a single grain of dust in the piezo elements will fry them easily, that's what I meant with higher precision, it's a more fragile system) I can take a film body any day and still have IS and thus know how my system will behave whereas you will be used to relying on AS which isn't there on the film body.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
I have a 400 mm stabilised lens
(100-400 mm zoom) and it works fine. I don't know about you, but I
can see the picture just fine in the viewfinder.
Now let's put that movement when IS is off into the perspective of the AF sensor size and it's movement is bad enough at 400mm to be picking up the wrong part of the picture.
Try turning off IS, you'll see it's not so bad.
I did the other day (well I normally shoot even my long lens without IS eventhough it has that feature because I am quite versed at hand holding that focal length. But the movement was enough to have AF miss at times in challenging situations.
What did you do before IS?
The same as today: Mount the lens on a really sturdy tripod/head and shoot at whatever shutter speed the subject demands. You praise the AS as the holy grail of photography. Neither IS or AS is, they are helping in situations where a tripod may not be helpful and that's for me only in panning at relatively low shutter speeds - and that's only because I still haven't made up my mind which tripod head will be better for my useage: the Wimberly sidekick or the full fledged Wimberly gymbal head. After buying that I have no use for IS anymore.
At slow shutter speeds the actual image will be blurred, but AS copes with
that just as good as IS. You have to try it. But then again: you
might like it, and that really won't do, will it?
I don't even really like IS - it's a natural system to use if you insist on skimping on the basicis, but I still think IS/AS/OS is a cludge with AS being the worst because it falls short of really helping the photographer design his shot (no viewfinder stabilisation) and it's even drawing attention away from the framing of photograph having to look at the LED efficiency indicator.

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
The sports shooter has to track for long periods of time
and uses long lenses. Stabilization is indispensable.
And comes in the form of monopods and proper technic.
The wildlife shooter is very similar to the sports shooter and also has the need
for stabilization.
Which comes in the form of tripods and proper technic. Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.
And then finally, there is daddy. He takes
pictures of his kid. He doesn't have technique, no fancy lenses, no
education on lighting or shutter speeds or depth of field. But
included free of charge with every camera sold, is camera shake.
And he'll get blurred shots not because they suffered from had hand shake but because the subject moved faster than the reduced shutter speed (which the non-pro doesn't apreciate) would freeze sufficiently. In exactly those situations IS and AS both are a distraction from proper technic, which would be to up the shutter speed to reduce hand shake and at the same time would be sufficient to stop the subject movement from blurring the shot.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
cludge with AS being the worst because it falls short of really
helping the photographer design his shot (no viewfinder
stabilisation)
Heh. You must really be waving your lenses around. I repeat, in typical stabilized shots (two-three stops longer than usual) movement is pretty slight. When following birds in flight, to take your earlier example, the slight vibrations are the least of your compositional problems.
and it's even drawing attention away from the
framing of photograph having to look at the LED efficiency
indicator.
Then don't look at it. It is visible enough to be viewable with the peripheral vision.
 
To rephrase your own words:

You have to pay for IS in every lens you buy and if it fails (which
as a mechanical system it will eventually do) it will be expensive
to fix and you will also be without your very expensive lens
until it returns. With AS, I can grab another body or shoot (gasp)
film.
With IS in the lens (which is less likely to fail, just a single
grain of dust in the piezo elements will fry them easily, that's
what I meant with higher precision, it's a more fragile system)
You have no proof for this lesser reliability, and have no idea how the actual units are sealed, neither in AS or IS. Canon, Nikon and Sigma also uses piezo actuators. The AS actuators in the A1/A2 must be even more fine grained but yet I have heard of very few failures, despite the cameras being sold in way numbers than the 7D. You are just waving your hands here.
I can take a film body any day and still have IS
Not with the IS lens broken and on repair, you can't. Is your position that a functioning lens with IS and a digital camera is better than a non-IS lens and a broken digital camera with AS? Wow, must have taken some real thinking to get to that argument.
 
to say those things, you can't. No, you can't.

I lost a kiss because of camera shake. 2 weeks ago I captured what would be a great portrait of the bride but at 1/45, f2.8 and ISO800 (on a D60 that can't go higher) there is a little amount of camera shake. And I have steady hands, plus I shoot bursts more and more often, in the hope that one out of the 2 or 3 will be sharp. Well, that picture is good enough, and I've seen blurry pics in Elle, but still, it kills me. The lens was a Tamron 28-75 2.8. In-body IS would have saved it, no question. If Canon made a 24-70 2.8 IS and put a decent QC at the end of the factory line, I'd buy it, and would make great use of IS at 24mm.

Sorry, but using a monopod is completely impractical in the kind of weddings I shoot. Monopods are fine for video guys, as they never film in portrait mode, obviously. And no, a monopod + stroboframe isn't practical either.

So, you never shot a wedding, did you? or maybe you only use flash under 1/125 s ?
And comes in the form of monopods and proper technic.
Which comes in the form of tripods and proper technic. Sorry but
you don't know what you are talking about.
Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
 
Magnus W you are very good at twisting and turning the words in ones mouth and citing out of context. I have had it and will not reply to you anymore.

Please go back to shooting the D7D and be happy with it, I honestly hope you get good shots...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
to say those things, you can't. No, you can't.
Well I have and I did perfectly well. I don't apply photojournalist style to it though. If you had shown up with that style at my wedding I would have kicked you out in the first 15 mintues!

Still weddings are only a side line for me, I'm a wildlife guy and only do weddings for friends to get those shots the pro's miss out on.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
So, you never shot a wedding, did you? or maybe you only use flash
under 1/125 s ?
I can tell you that I have shot several weddings this year; in all cases, AS made for some stunning available light shots. I rarely carry a flash anymore. I have never been that hot about stabilization, not needing it (yet!) for my type of wildlife shots, so I was never very interested in getting stabilized long lenses -- still, when the 7D came out, I bought it and checked out the stabilization system.

The possibility to use fast primes, especially wide angles, down to impossible times is what makes the AS system indispensible. It works fine (two-three stops) for long lenses, but it's way more than that for shorter focal lengths.

I'd love to see Karl in a church with a Sachtler :-D
 
A Very good point, how do I miss this! Also, I rather have the
motor shake the lens than the image sensor. The flex circuit from
the sensor to the processor could break eventually.
Are you serious? Of course they have tested the cables for many, many years of usage. AS operation is intermittent, it's only needed to operate the AS mechanism in the lab continously for a couple of hours to get a simulation of several years, and hundreds of thousands of shots.
 
Why even bother pontificating about how AS doesn't work, may lead to unsharp images, blah blah blah when there are plenty of people using it who can tell you how well it works? Or better yet, try it and find out first-hand. I did...and it does work. Very well. AS with a 35mm f/1.4 lens in low light is a blast . I had no trouble getting sharp results at ISO 1600 and 1/10th sec. at f/1.4 in very dim light. Canon currently has no equivalent to this.

-Dave-
 
As someone who keeps things (like camera) around for dozens of
years, IS is just another failure mechanism. And since its a
delicate mechanism, it is subject to more failures than more robust
systems. Therefore, if IS is in the lens, only that lens is
crippled when IS fails. If IS is in the body, I can't shoot
anything for 3 weeks while it is repaired....
AS can and does fail, but according to KM it was designed to be more robust than the shutter. KM has had AS for a while now in their digicams and I have not noticed a high number of failure complaints.
And I wish they would bring back hand cranked automobile windows
and fromt window vents too.....
LOL - my nieces saw my wifes 66 Mustang and asked what those funny handles were on the doors! (They were window cranks, they had never seen them before, god, I feel old :))

--
Shawn
 
Haven't seen you around here for a while, Guillaume. Great to read your hard-nosed professional answers again.

Rik
 
Having the IS within each individual lens allows canon to adjust
the IS system specifically for the optics for that lens, thus
allowing for a better overall IS system. The IS needed for say the
70-300 DO IS is far different from the 17-85 IS. Having the IS in
the body of the camera limits its ability to stablize the image.
However it is a nice little marketing gimmick and weak minds that
don't understand that fall for it all the time. Good for business,
bad for uneducated consumers.
unless of course the technology is good enough where the body can read the lens and the IS can act accordingly. shrug

also, i think "weak minds" is a funny term... it makes me think i'm in a bad 80s movie about chess or something. (actually... basically like rocky IV... but with chess).

--
-Dan
 
In a shot like this, you need to keep the shutter speed up to prevent motion blur from subject movement. IS can't help with that.

HOWEVER, I love IS, and have it on my 70-200 and on my 17-85 lenses.

But let's not forget that a good wedding photographer has his own style, and what some couples love others would hate. (I've known some serious people who would hate this shot and others who would love it!)

--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25

 
You guys can speculate watever you want as though nobody among pro reviewers tested AS vs IS (just check DPR or Imaging-Resource reviews of KM 7D or A2/A200) or nobody has and uses both Canon/Nikon IS/VR lenses and KM AS bodies. AS works and works well, on par with IS.

I for one have both 28-135 IS on my 300D and KM A2 with buitin 28-200 and in-body AS. Lemme tell you both stabilization systems on average give a 2 stop lattitude fro handholding. Both IS and AS share same pluses (2-3 stops with static obejcts) and same limitations (no way a replacement, especially for action, for fast constant aperture lens).

You can't say which system is absolutely better. Both have specififc pluses and minuses.

DSLR (like 7D/5D) with in-body AS:

+ Every lens ordinary becomes stabilized saving you hundreds and opening wider range of lens for your needs. Imagine. 17-40L suddenly becoming also stabilized without costing more and weighting more. Heck, who would refuse to open few stops on 18-55 kit lens so they could perform better?

+ Judging by KM's prices vs competition AS doesn't increase substantially per body price.
  • Having sesnsor constantly moving within body is a scary proposition in terms of things that can go wrong due to added complexity and moving parts.
  • At same focal length to compensate for shake sensor platform has to move with greater amplitude and faster than optical in-lens element.
  • As opposed to IS you don't see effects of stabilization in the finder (though KM shows a nifty bar gauge).
In-lens IS/VR:

+ Point of failure is concentrates within single lens and not body (a good thing unless IS lens cost more than camera).
+ No extra to pay for a body.
+ You see effects of stabiliztion on a finder.
+ Somewhat better stabilization effect, especially at longer end.
  • Additional in-lens stabilization elements add complexity and invariably compromise optical quality and make lens bigger, heavier, potentially less reliable and more expensive.
  • Limited choice of IS/VR lens as opposed to AS with which every lens becomes stabilized on AS body.
--
http://www.pbase.com/klopus
 
And if you DON't WANT that IS/AS/VR stuff at all?

If it is in the body you have to pay for something you don't want ... no, thank you - I'll take the dinner.

However, I'm not sure if this one size fits all thingy from Minolta really works with all lenses to 100% .. can the sensor really be moved that far, and, most of all, that fast?

Dont lynch me now ;)
 

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