What is the fasination with in body IS ?

That's one lens. You give the impression that it applies to all
lenses. In fact a Dynax 7D plus any number of stabilised lenses is
cheaper than a Canon 20D with similar lenses, barring the ones that
cost more than an average car.
Well here in Germany this extends to the 70-200 f/2.8 SSM compared to the 70-200 f/2.8L IS, the 300 f/4 APO G, the 300 f/2.8 APO G compared to their L counterparts, so overall for the telephoto users who need the focal length at excellent results and who might have a use for AS/IS the Minolta system is more expensive and doesn't offer the USM equivalent of SSM (needed for the speed in focusing more than the silence of it). And if I make the jump to any other Canon body then the IS will stay with me, so I don't have to pay over and over for it - a lens has a useful life of in excess of 10 years if you get 3 out of your DSLR then you're very lucky, so if you need 300mm image stabilized it pays to buy a 300mm IS lens (with the advantage of IS stabilizing the viewfinder and helping the AF) at a lower price than the Minolta counterpart and simply keep the lens when getting the next body irregardless if it's a full frame sensor one (on which AS wouldn't function properly for limits of image circle size) or not.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
When I touch the shutter button I often get gasps from
the students as they see the clock slowly move instead of jiggle on
the projector screen. It works really well.
As you seem to have one of the bridge cameras with it's stabilized sensor this isn't valid for the D7D or any other DSLR which might incorporate this mechanism as the viewfinder is directly looking through the lens without any electronic recording/playback off the main sensor.

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
Without IS, the sensor is moving relative to the subject when the light hits it, giving motion blur. With IS, the sensor is stable relative to the subject so you don't get motion blur.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25

 
The IS is switchable on/off so you could choose when to use it and when not to.

Could another approach be to use a gyroscope to keep the camera from shaking?

--
Todd Haehn
 
...I choose to disagree.

1. If we can do stabilisation in a cheap way, why do it in an expensive way?

2. I agree with you that AS does not provide a stabilised viewfinder and does not help with autofocus. You cited an excellent example about birds - IS has an advantage with super-long teles. But what about anything other than the super-teles? I shoot mostly from 20mm to 400mm (30mm to 600mm equiv.) and as yet have not found the two shortcomings bother me a bit. I can live with that. OTOH, AS has its unique advantage. Consider this scenario: if you want to shoot something in a dimly lit museum where no flash and tripod is allowed, what will you do? Of course you have a fast lens but it is usually not adequate. I can assure you that with AS I have been able to get lots of sharp pictures with a 50/2.8 lens under these conditions. I even had the luxury to put on a CPL filter. Third-rate stabilisation? I don't think so.

3. I don't shoot many pannings so I'm not going to comment on that. But I've seen examples of these on the KM forum. They are good.

4. The 600/4 G may be the least popular lens in the KM lineup. To be honest, I don't know its price. For the more popular ones, KM lenses cost more or less the same as their Canon equivalents (without IS).

Pete
 
You picked the right subject...it sure describes the context of your post.

--
John
---------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: 'Peter, I see you've been missing alot of work lately'

Peter: 'Well I wouldn't exactly say I've been 'MISSING' it, Bob'
 
1. If we can do stabilisation in a cheap way, why do it in an
expensive way?
So IS is the way to go as the Canon IS lenses are cheaper than their Minolta counterparts :-)

You have to pay for AS in every body you buy and if it fails (which as a mechanical system it will eventually do) it will be more expensive to fix as it is a higher precision and more critical system than shifting an optical element in the lens, it does only one third (currently only one quarter as the logic to do a proper panning mode - the minolta manual says to switch off AS when panning - is missing) of the job, so it's a cludge.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
What is the fasination with IN-LENSE IS ? Really, it's just two
separate approaches to the same problem.
But with two different outcomes. The AS only stabilises the final image, IS stabilises the viewfinder, helps AF performance and the final image.

You only buy a new lens every 10 years (for a given range) if not even longer time passes between purchases, with advances in SLR bodies you probably end up buying a new one every 2 years (if the body lasts that long to begin with). So what's more sensible: Paying less for a IS lens (than the comparable Minolta counterpart) and keep that for 10-15 years or buy 7 bodies over that time and paying for AS over and over...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
As someone who keeps things (like camera) around for dozens of years, IS is just another failure mechanism. And since its a delicate mechanism, it is subject to more failures than more robust systems. Therefore, if IS is in the lens, only that lens is crippled when IS fails. If IS is in the body, I can't shoot anything for 3 weeks while it is repaired....

And I wish they would bring back hand cranked automobile windows and fromt window vents too.....
--
Mitch
 
A Very good point, how do I miss this! Also, I rather have the motor shake the lens than the image sensor. The flex circuit from the sensor to the processor could break eventually. There is no flex circuit coming of the lens, I don't think. Just my 2 cents
It's only 3rd rate compared to true optical image stabilisation
because it doesn't stabilize the viewfinder and it's not helping
the autofocus.
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
first: you say it wont work. well..sorry to tell you, but many users and magazine reviewers state that it does give at least 2 stops for any given focal length. its alot easier to doubt and slam the competition, then accept the fact that it does work, and work well. from wide angle to telephoto. ok maybe not at super-speeds..but what % of the photographing world has a 600 f4, or a 500 f4.5? i figure that minolta has nailed the market that it wants with a product that works.

second: you say you have to pay for it each time you buy a body. actually, you wont. since minolta has incorporated it into all of its prosumers and now into its P&S cams, it will be standard for all DSLR bodies, at no extra cost. just look at the 5D. it is priced very competitively in its market and some places lower than its competition. you dont see minolta tacking on an extra 2 hun just for having AS do you? and with the 7D, it came out originally above the 20D's price point. but its now dropped in price where it is equal if not lower than the 20D. AS will be free for current and future dslr models. Id rather pay for one stabilized body, than for each lens that has IS.

third: you say that the moving sensor may cause malfunction or doubt its reliability. this is just fearing the unknown of new break through technology. im sure there were alot of doubters regarding the first IS lens that came out..since it is in fact moving optical elements. Canon has managed to put IS into many lenses, so im sure they know what their doing. Same with AS. if a KM AS sensor shakes its way out of a camera..i will eat my words. but i am 100% sure, with the frequent body upgrades that comes with going digital, that the AS will last until your next upgrade.

fourth: you say you can use your IS lenses on your film cams still... oh come on. how many of you STILL shoot that ancient media? ;)

im not bashing canon's IS. i know it works. i know it works well. i know many that have dumped LARGE amount of coin for IS lenses. i know canon has a select line of IS lenses. i know KM does have stabilized 85 1.4's 50 1.4/7's, 17-35's. 11-18's etc etc. i know many of the KM users know and accept that IS works, and accept canon users' decision to use and support it. too bad i cant say the same thing about 'most' canon users. each has their own percieved advantages..so lets just leave it at that.

to each their own...

peace
--
sonny C

p.s: i dont have a 7D but ive borred a friends many times, and ive been able to shoot images not possible with my film 7 with excellent results...so i know it works.
 
But with two different outcomes. The AS only stabilises the final
image, IS stabilises the viewfinder,
Yes -- if you like it. A IS/VR/OS stabilized viewfinder can have a slightly wandering quality to it. That's one of the reasons you have the option to disable "live" IS on a Canon body.
helps AF performance
For the shake typically compensated by IS/AS. this is a total non-issue as the shakes don't make you "miss the subject". For in-flight birding, you will have a pretty large bird to lock on -- where AF looks is uninteresting. If you shoot very small birds, or in tricky situations, you are likely to use pre-focusing and/or manual focus anyway.
and the
final image.
Right. As well as AS.
You only buy a new lens every 10 years (for a given range) if not
even longer time passes between purchases,
Let's see, where's Canon's 50/1.4 IS? Where's their 20/2.8 IS? Where's their 85/1.4 IS? With this setup, I can set the camera to 2-800 ISO depending on weather and walk around at night, shooting scenes as if it was day. Even stopping down a fair bit. Working AS on my teles (200/2.8, 300/2.8, 500/8 cat + TCs) is just icing on the cake.
 
You have to pay for AS in every body you buy and if it fails (which
as a mechanical system it will eventually do) it will be more
expensive to fix as it is a higher precision and more critical
system than shifting an optical element in the lens, it does only
one third (currently only one quarter as the logic to do a proper
panning mode - the minolta manual says to switch off AS when
panning - is missing) of the job, so it's a cludge.
Man, you are weird. You state that because IS is in the lens, all your cameras are stabilised. Well, if the system fails (and it will), none of your cameras are stabilised with the lens or lenses in quetion. If I have two 7D's, then at least one will still be stabilised with all my lenses of any focal length; how many photographers have two identical cameras - and how many have two identical lenses? And now all of a sudden Minolta's system is of higher precision than Canon's? Who would have figured Canon to be such cheapskates? People are actually able to take pictures at far below the normal shutter speed for a given focal length, but that means nothing to you? Oh, yes: that they have been fooled into believing that their photos are sharp when they're atualy not! Yes, you are weird.
 
Therefore, if IS is in the lens, only that lens is
crippled when IS fails. If IS is in the body, I can't shoot
anything for 3 weeks while it is repaired....
I'd rather be without a camera body -- then I can grab another one. If my 300/2.8 is at the repair centre, it's not like I keep a backup lens under the bed just in case. Having the possible failure point in the most often upgraded item is a good thing, and allows me to get upgraded IS every time they come to think of something new.
 
To rephrase your own words:

You have to pay for IS in every lens you buy and if it fails (which

as a mechanical system it will eventually do) it will be expensive to fix and you will also be without your very expensive lens until it returns. With AS, I can grab another body or shoot (gasp) film.
 
That's one lens. You give the impression that it applies to all
lenses. In fact a Dynax 7D plus any number of stabilised lenses is
cheaper than a Canon 20D with similar lenses, barring the ones that
cost more than an average car.
Well here in Germany this extends to the 70-200 f/2.8 SSM compared
to the 70-200 f/2.8L IS, the 300 f/4 APO G, the 300 f/2.8 APO G
compared to their L counterparts, so overall for the telephoto
users who need the focal length at excellent results and who might
have a use for AS/IS the Minolta system is more expensive and
doesn't offer the USM equivalent of SSM (needed for the speed in
focusing more than the silence of it).
Let's be realistic for a while; the Canon owners who would like AS instead of IS are not the ones who have all the money in the world to buy IS lenses, or else they would already have them. Would you suggest that they should change to Minolta?
And if I make the jump to
any other Canon body then the IS will stay with me, so I don't have
to pay over and over for it - a lens has a useful life of in excess
of 10 years if you get 3 out of your DSLR then you're very lucky,
so if you need 300mm image stabilized it pays to buy a 300mm IS
lens (with the advantage of IS stabilizing the viewfinder and
helping the AF) at a lower price than the Minolta counterpart and
simply keep the lens when getting the next body irregardless if
it's a full frame sensor one (on which AS wouldn't function
properly for limits of image circle size) or not.
Except for a few new budget lenses, all Minolta lenses cover FF and more, so forget about that one. I have a 400 mm stabilised lens (100-400 mm zoom) and it works fine. I don't know about you, but I can see the picture just fine in the viewfinder. Try turning off IS, you'll see it's not so bad. What did you do before IS? At slow shutter speeds the actual image will be blurred, but AS copes with that just as good as IS. You have to try it. But then again: you might like it, and that really won't do, will it?
 
Camera shake is a given, and it happens all the time. Some people do not realize that it is even going on. It is a very normal accepted feature in all modern video cameras to have image stabilization. Yet, in cameras it has been very slow to arrive.

There are 2 reasons to have stabilization and it addresses 2 distinct different type of shooting. The first and most common is for zoom lenses. Because the need is so strong there, and the marketing makes it easy to sell this feature the long zooms have added stabilization to them a long time ago.

For normal range lenses it is not as easy to sell the person on the idea that they need it. You actually sound like one of the people not realizing the need and are therefore not sold on it. So, in their marketing, the camera makers have been slow to implement this feature because people are not convinced they need it.

Yet, for anyone that does a heavy amount of shooting they will eventually realize that camera shake is a problem. I shoot weddings. About 15 percent of my pictures suffer from camera shake, yet I could be macho about it and refuse to recognize it, say it is my technique that needs to be fixed and cast the issue aside. But the truth still remains no matter how I bury it. People who refuse to see or understand that they are having camera shake use all kinds of methods to bury the issue but once you see it for what it is, it needs to be addressed.

There is camera shake, and there is subject motion. The 2 are not the same. A trained eye can easily spot the difference. A lot of the complaints about soft images are also a low level of camera shake, but then again the majority denies this even exists and the problem just hounds us but can never be fixed because it is never reveled as the root.

There are 2 ways to address camera shake. Image stabilization, in either the lens or the camera body is one way. It gives you some terrific advantages. But it only addresses camera shake and does not address subject movement.

The other way to introduce solving camera shake and also address subject movement is to raise the shutter speed to the point where neither is present. Instead of putting image stabilization into the camera system, a camera maker can focus on cleaner high ISO ranges that allow faster shutter speeds. Canon happens to have an advantage in this area and they may look at this avenue to address this topic rather than to implement a stabilization scheme inside the lens or camera.

Operating by fear does not solve any of these possible answers. People who are afraid to introduce in camera image stabilization because the sensor is moving are way out of tune with reality. This is fear motivated and not logic motivated.

I have owned the Konica Minolta 7D and I can tell anyone who wants to hear what a pleasurable relief it was to have stabilization on ANY lens I can put on the camera (other than a few select macro lenses). The camera was a dream to use for available light photography. There just isn't any other experience that compares with it. The camera has some serious interaction problems with the user when you want to do flash photography though, at least in a pro sense, and this basically causes the camera to shoot itself in the foot.

The 7D does the job very well and it does it for every lens you own. What an exciting feature that is.

Now, instead of a mechanical stabilization scheme, imaging an ISO of 1600 that is clean as ISO 400, and ISO 3200 that is as clean and detailed as ISO 800, and an ISO of 6400 that works as well as ISO 1600 and you will be looking at the best way to "image stabilize". No mechanical movement to limit you to an artificially slow shutter speed, and no having to turn it to position 1 or position 2 or turn it off on a tripod. You just get high shutter speeds that just chew up and spit out camera shake AND subject motion in one swift kick.

Either way, a camera today that has no image stabilization scheme available for it's user is handicapping that user. It is very necessary. It isn't about muscle strength or shooting techniques, it happens and it happens a lot. Don't box yourself in to looking at it from your point of view only. Think of the other guy too. The wedding photographer may have to stand on his feet for over 6 to 10 hours and most of that time is with the camera up to his eye. No technique is going to compensate for just plain old getting tired. The journalist has to get that once in a lifetime shoot at every assignment. He will take every precaution to eliminate camera shake. Having stabilization is a very welcome friend to have in your bag. The sports shooter has to track for long periods of time and uses long lenses. Stabilization is indispensable. The wildlife shooter is very similar to the sports shooter and also has the need for stabilization. And then finally, there is daddy. He takes pictures of his kid. He doesn't have technique, no fancy lenses, no education on lighting or shutter speeds or depth of field. But included free of charge with every camera sold, is camera shake. So good old dad can use stabilization as much as all the rest of them.

Peter

--
Peter Gregg
[email protected]
pbase.com/pgp777
 
A) We have image stabilization available with every lens for our camera if we go with in-body stabilization.

B) We can buy lenses of equal quality for about half as much when we go with in-body stabilization.

There are people here using theory and speculation to determine that in-body AS either couldn't work, or doesn't work as well at longer focal lengths. Yet interestingly enough, every image sample and test shot I've seen proves them wrong.

I currently have a Digital Rebel, but a Minolta 5D or 7D coupled with some constant f2.8 Sigma zooms seems very attractive to me.

--
I see your schwartz is as big as mine.
 

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