* Visual Structure: Movement *

[Bill Borne]

Norman...I just got done checking out all your recent additions on pbase. Very nice! I have to wonder how you are getting so close to some of the subjects, the bear, the Bald Eagle...
Anyway upon viewing the photo of the fish eggs once again, a fine photo;

It has intrigued me for a while now as I am familiar with fish embryos...I raised Angelfish for about a year selling them to local petshops. Looks to me like newly hatch with yolksacs attached. What I haven't figured out is where these are when you photographed them? I can't figure out what the background is? Care to elaborate on it for me or is it a trade secret?

IMO a little less well realized: the background,- the ground in the
figure ground reationship of the image. Here again an interplay of
opposites, greens and the overly strong reds. These background
forms are supportive and diffused abstractions of the surrounding
enviroment. The visual problem here IMO is that the red is
especially strong in its relative size and saturation, in that it
pulls and tends to hold the eye strongly into the upper right, in
pathways that do not support , rather compete with the key element
of yelow leaves and bug. As a variation I tuned this balance a
bit by backing off the saturation of the red in this area, and
picked up a little of the surrounding green to tone back the reds
and pink a little, that allows the eyes to move more slowly
-circulating the drama back through to the leaf and bug, and get
more of a push pull relation of the figure to the ground.

If you look at your three drawings I think you'll see conciderable
simularities in most of your directional arrows, with the exception
of the areas of the upper reds, which had pronged like ends (varied
pointers) in its form. It appears to me , you've intuitively sensed
that this area is problematic. Also a relatively small amount of
advancing red often goes a longer ways, in balancing greens, in
photography as in painting. I'd suggest trying the exercise with
lines of directional movement on this enclosed variation:
Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108
...and let me know your experience - how the perceptual movement
and flow differs.

Bill.... Thank you.

I 'd like to suggest two fine examples from your galleries for
you to bring up ( one at a time and study further for and
post back the results. I think you'll find it helpfull using these
two specific images.# 5151380 and 5152905 from your pbase gallery.

Both work well, have movement that carries through, in and around
the image. Both have discernable dynamic interplay of directional
forces. Both simplified in their beauty of composition. Perhaps you
could post a link to the originals, draw in and discribe the
movements,( 7 lines max ) in this flower and insect image.

Here is a suggestion. Do the directional lines for one, then store
it temporarily out of sight. Return a while later , repeat the
exercise looking anew, at the same image - do this three times.
Later come back and view the three; note small distinctions,
observations, and emphasis. This is can be an avenue of pure
process, at the visual level.

You are IMO exceptional in your persistence, your growth apparent,
your shared experience, I expect others may benefit from as well.
I'd like to suggest you post back ,any two or all three of these
variations of the same image, in the order they were made.

My edited variation below:

Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108.jpg

Norman...
Here are three I did at three different times. Not thinking about
what I did previously, only what I percieved at the time I did
them. Hmmm...all different?
Original
http://www.pbase.com/image/5152905

--
Norman
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

 

[NRich]

Bill... My coastal wildlife gallery at pbase represents a sampler of my wildlife portrait "photgraphy ", the fourth in my series of CD-Rom slide shows - (170 photos each ) that I am currently working on. One of the many challenges is to narrow some 1,500 wildlife images to 170.

Circumstsances of the shots differ widely. This gallery is a sampling , they are all digitally shot with either the 505v, 707, or 717. Whats interesting about eagle # 4 with the seal carcass, is others held back from this series reveal the extraordinary circumstances of the eagle surrounded by vultures - with the eagle manteling over its prey to protect it. at the time I was crouched on a reef in several feet of salt water, as I was in salt water in the heron shot also.

I will go to what others would some might consider extreames - I have remained day set up below an eagle's nest photographing two eaglets and their early flights, deer apprached, and a family of racoons stumbled over me.

Virtually all wildlife shots use the TCON- 14B. attached, all preset at 1SO 100( make it difficult for yourself Norm - even still I am very close - for example less than 20' from the eagle and the heron.lying prone in high grass, I have been less than six feet from shore birds. I place myself in the center of experience, much like a native american might, and I am very patient. I enjoy hanging out in wild areas. I'm reluctant to share additional specifics, ~ I'm not looking to clone any one path or approach

I'd rather viewers absorb the grandeur of the outdoors, and wildlife through the images themselves,- as a direct shoot - a direct experience with the photo, without explanations. I shoot for experience, the image a by product of that exoerience. ~ I'm not interested in labels - My attention is not on what kind of gull this is. What matters more is The visual impact, and sustained wonder in the photo. Often folks identify the species turn there back on the unfolding experience itself.
Gull portrait ~ in flight below.



I have rarely found a viewer to authentically enjoy a painting more by telling them how it was made, or how long it took. What matters most to me, and I hope to the viewer is that I bring the same purposeful Intent, to wildlife photography, as I would a painting, much as those do who care about human portraiture ~ wildlife being perhaps a tad more squiggly

I've stoped posting originals sizes- in my galleries, as I feel puts a misguided emphasis on equipment, rather than artistry. In my slide shows i give no specific locations, as no where the shots were taken -as I feel its up to individuals to find their own wild santuary. I don't want to find tourists at my favorite haunts - your a fisherman you understand, good reasons for keeping ones favorite fishing holes to themselves

My wife, a biology teacher, and myself an artist, choose to explore wild places annually for expedition like stretches, of two months at a time, principaly from an old basic 30' steel sail sailboat, that I referbished as a winter project six years ago. From a dolphin leaping along side the boat in open waters with a rainbow running from head to tail, to an eagle with vultures, ,with a wildlife CD-Rom in the works I give, and understandably hold back a little

Norman...I just got done checking out all your recent additions on
pbase. Very nice! I have to wonder how you are getting so close to
some of the subjects, the bear, the Bald Eagle...
Anyway upon viewing the photo of the fish eggs once again, a fine
photo;
It has intrigued me for a while now as I am familiar with fish
embryos...I raised Angelfish for about a year selling them to local
petshops. Looks to me like newly hatch with yolksacs attached. What
I haven't figured out is where these are when you photographed
them? I can't figure out what the background is? Care to elaborate
on it for me or is it a trade secret?

OK.....I'll make these fish eggs an exception, and tell you these fish eges were attached to the underside of a large rock, in a salt water tide pool on the Canadian coast. The rock was returned to its original position on departure. Already, I'm regretting mentioning this, as I'd rather not see people carelessly turning over rocks, without turning them back again....In any event - a shot that does not appear in my pbase galleries reveals a close -up of the mother fish with these little ones. I expect it will make it into the final cut of the marine and wildlife portrait slide show.

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
Regards
Norman
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

 

[NRich]

Norman, Sorry about the delay. I checked this post out and just
forgot to get back to it!
You are right. The red flower was just distracting me. Especially
with it's several spikes jutting out.

It would just sort of "trap"
your eye and then you have to "break away" from it into the flow of
the photo. Hope you can interpret that?

Bill... this is the kind of purely visual thinking that I am hoping to see emerge in these threads... It has little to do with hard thinking. Instead its about perceptive seeing- its entirely perceptual in nature. Overly saturated reds can "Trapping the eye and having to break away from the flow of the photo." Thats is exactly it ! - and you've put this very well . - simple and straight forward.

The exciting thing, I find is that Compositional understanding are learn able, as evident in these threads. We can learn to seeing skills , as musicians learn to hear. Its a lot easier to see the movement with complemenatry opposite visual elements, that competing elements...as you've well discovered... This post leads in the direction of the emerging thread to come.These threads are originating from meaningful dialogue with STFers such as youself.

By the way I noticed an interesting exercise you did - in your gallery - drawing upon and exploring movement in Shutters Beach photo...I feel It would be useful to others, to post it for a reference -sooner the better, as the thread closes -should it go to 150.

I see how the desaturation
of the red blending it into the background more has achieved this.
So a different composition, or maybe a little less DOF may have
helped to achieve a natural "flow" with emphasis on the main
subject. The difference noted here brings me back to the
variations of Marcels Snow Scene.

Yes, balance & proportion of compositional elements, can make or break a photo.

In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos. The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

Bill
....I find this a very interesting post - It is also helping me to
crystalize an emerging theme of the next thread ~ the visual
interplay of opposites. This is often buried to our awareness,
almost invisible, yet in ongoing ways I am seeing these balances
furthered or detracting from the intent of photographs.

Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108
...and let me know your experience - how the perceptual movement
and flow differs.

My edited variation below:

Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108.

Norman...
Here are three I did at three different times. Not thinking about
what I did previously, only what I percieved at the time I did
them.
Original
http://www.pbase.com/image/5152905
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370815 .
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370816 .
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370818 .

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

 

[Bill Borne]

Bill... My coastal wildlife gallery at pbase represents a sampler
of my wildlife portrait "photgraphy ", the fourth in my series
of CD-Rom slide shows - (170 photos each ) that I am currently
working on. One of the many challenges is to narrow some 1,500
wildlife images to 170.

Hmm, Norman....Now I would think that is a "Challenge"!

Circumstsances of the shots differ widely. This gallery is a
sampling , they are all digitally shot with either the 505v, 707,
or 717. Whats interesting about eagle # 4 with the seal carcass, is
others held back from this series reveal the extraordinary
circumstances of the eagle surrounded by vultures - with the eagle
manteling over its prey to protect it. at the time I was crouched
on a reef in several feet of salt water, as I was in salt water in
the heron shot also.

I will go to what others would some might consider extreames - I
have remained day set up below an eagle's nest photographing two
eaglets and their early flights, deer apprached, and a family of
racoons stumbled over me.

Virtually all wildlife shots use the TCON- 14B. attached, all
preset at 1SO 100( make it difficult for yourself Norm - even
still I am very close - for example less than 20' from the eagle
and the heron.lying prone in high grass, I have been less than six
feet from shore birds. I place myself in the center of experience,
much like a native american might, and I am very patient. I enjoy
hanging out in wild areas. I'm reluctant to share additional
specifics, ~ I'm not looking to clone any one path or approach

I am getting the picture

I'd rather viewers absorb the grandeur of the outdoors, and
wildlife through the images themselves,- as a direct shoot - a
direct experience with the photo, without explanations. I shoot for
experience, the image a by product of that exoerience. ~ I'm not
interested in labels - My attention is not on what kind of gull
this is. What matters more is The visual impact, and sustained
wonder in the photo. Often folks identify the species turn there
back on the unfolding experience itself.
Gull portrait ~ in flight below.

I understand. I have gotten too involved in the experience shooting wildlife where I never took the shot.

I have rarely found a viewer to authentically enjoy a painting more
by telling them how it was made, or how long it took. What matters
most to me, and I hope to the viewer is that I bring the same
purposeful Intent, to wildlife photography, as I would a painting,
much as those do who care about human portraiture ~ wildlife being
perhaps a tad more squiggly

http://www.pbase.com/image/370099/medium >

OK.....I'll make these fish eggs an exception, and tell you these
fish eges were attached to the underside of a large rock, in a
salt water tide pool on the Canadian coast. The rock was returned
to its original position on departure. Already, I'm regretting
mentioning this, as I'd rather not see people carelessly turning
over rocks, without turning them back again....In any event - a
shot that does not appear in my pbase galleries reveals a close
-up of the mother fish with these little ones. I expect it will
make it into the final cut of the marine and wildlife portrait
slide show.

Thank You for the background on this photo. That was what I was wondering....eggs adhered to a rock. You see, what puzzeled me was the rock has that "honeycomb" effect to it. I was thinking maybe some kind of artificial spawning slate in a hatchery or someting like that. Actually years ago I had raised many types of tropical fish and bred many different varieties. Some adhere their eggs, some just drop them to fall to the bottom, some spray them and stick to plants, etc. Very interesting IMO.And some will fight to the death to protect their young! Now it's all clear and I do believe in not disturbing nature. "Walk light, tread easy, carry it in-carry it out"! I have seen more than my share of the "Remnants" left from obnoxious people!!!

Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
Regards
Norman
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

 

[Bill Borne]

Norman, Sorry about the delay. I checked this post out and just
forgot to get back to it!
You are right. The red flower was just distracting me. Especially
with it's several spikes jutting out.

It would just sort of "trap"
your eye and then you have to "break away" from it into the flow of
the photo. Hope you can interpret that?

Bill... this is the kind of purely visual thinking that I am hoping
to see emerge in these threads... It has little to do with hard
thinking. Instead its about perceptive seeing- its entirely
perceptual in nature. Overly saturated reds can "Trapping the eye
and having to break away from the flow of the photo." Thats is
exactly it ! - and you've put this very well . - simple and
straight forward.

Yup, that's me..Simple and straightforwrd...get's me in trouble
sometimes

The exciting thing, I find is that Compositional understanding are
learn able, as evident in these threads. We can learn to seeing
skills , as musicians learn to hear. Its a lot easier to see the
movement with complemenatry opposite visual elements, that
competing elements...as you've well discovered... This post leads
in the direction of the emerging thread to come.These threads are
originating from meaningful dialogue with STFers such as youself.

Yes, "learnable" is the key word here. For me anyway.

By the way I noticed an interesting exercise you did - in your
gallery - drawing upon and exploring movement in Shutters Beach
photo...I feel It would be useful to others, to post it for a
reference -sooner the better, as the thread closes -should it go to
150.

I had posted it a while ago. I should have modified the post heading....see
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4445247

I see how the desaturation
of the red blending it into the background more has achieved this.
So a different composition, or maybe a little less DOF may have
helped to achieve a natural "flow" with emphasis on the main
subject. The difference noted here brings me back to the
variations of Marcels Snow Scene.

Yes, balance & proportion of compositional elements, can make or
break a photo.
In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore
both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos.
The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component
that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

Bill
....I find this a very interesting post - It is also helping me to
crystalize an emerging theme of the next thread ~ the visual
interplay of opposites. This is often buried to our awareness,
almost invisible, yet in ongoing ways I am seeing these balances
furthered or detracting from the intent of photographs.

Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108
...and let me know your experience - how the perceptual movement
and flow differs.

My edited variation below:

Http: www.pbase.com/image/13683108.

Norman...
Here are three I did at three different times. Not thinking about
what I did previously, only what I percieved at the time I did
them.
Original
http://www.pbase.com/image/5152905
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370815 .
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370816 .
http://www.pbase.com/image/13370818 .

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

 

[NRich]

Bill....meaningfull simulaties in our variations.

Your variation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4445247 .

My variation of Shutters beach photo below:



Shutters variation below:

In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore
both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos.
The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component
that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

 

[Bill Borne]

Norman

Yes there are simularities in ours, but seems one big difference is I tend to see the sunlit water at the top and flow down into photo and you see it almost the oppisite. I think both are worthy perceptions. Just the way we look at it?

Your variation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4445247 .

My variation of Shutters beach photo below:



Shutters variation below:

In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore
both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos.
The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component
that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

 

[NRich]

Bill,

I pulled the two of our variations up to look at them the same time. Here is my take on the simularites and differences. The simularites on the lower half of each are IMO remarkable.

Specifically the approach to the lower right figure, the directional movement in tne railing the draw of our eyes to the round wheel shape. So what might be causing the difference in the upper half?

Well as you've indicated, your eyes enter the image and are drawn down from the top in the direction of the light source. Thats entirely understandable and nothing wrong with that ...I'm drawn to enter this image through the areas of greatest contrast - the central figure, and the hot ( or bright area under the railing and elbow.) I've drawn in a large strong red directional arrow indicating this.

I am also drawn to the foreground first as it has the greatest amount of information. The tendancy of our eyes is to look early on at the larger closer figures, and move back into perspective space at the smaller objects and figures, though not always.

And in this image, i find the balance teeters toward movement in favor of either direction, down from the light source at the top, or may also be read as foreground interest proceeding in and upward. Either way returns our eyes to figure ground relationships in an organized space. Here we have the benefit of refering to the three variations of of Marcels snow scene where we've seen how small editing adjustments can tip the balance redirecting perpetual movement in a photo.

For example imagine the effects compositionally of reducing, or toning back the bright higlights in the water - through the railing for example, and reducing or elimanating the brightest whites at the top center. Yes, I agree all " worthy perceptions " and from a wonderfull diversity of participants. I know I've benefited from the opportunity to exercise seeing in new and meaningfull ways in this thread, as I hope others have as well.

Regards
Norman

Yes there are simularities in ours, but seems one big difference is
I tend to see the sunlit water at the top and flow down into photo
and you see it almost the oppisite. I think both are worthy
perceptions. Just the way we look at it?

Bill....meaningfull simulaties in our variations.

.....and meaningfull differences

Your variation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4445247 .

My variation of Shutters beach photo below:



Shutters variation below:

In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore
both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos.
The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component
that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

 

[NRich]

Just as I am heading out the door - I received an e-mail post from Marcel.

"Hi Norman,
I'm sending you my own variation on Shutter's b & w photo, because
currently I can't add anything to my galleries on pbase (I am currently
in the process of buying more space, but for the time being I'm stuck).
If you feel like it, would you mind embedding it for me on dpreview?
Otherwise at least you'll know how I viewed it. In some respects it is
fairly close to your variation and Bill's, yet some minor differences in
perception may be interesting..."

Marcel-Etienne

variation below by Marcel



Amazing- 149 posts and its just getting, well more interesting (still - I mean movement ....And i'm running late..out the door....wanted this variation included in the thread...terrific contribution....more speed moving right to left follows the direction of heads, again simularites with differences, to paraphraze nzmacro,: composition, what a wonderful world, ...
got to go - out for the evening....

I pulled the two of our variations up to look at them the same
time. Here is my take on the simularites and differences. The
simularites on the lower half of each are IMO remarkable.
Specifically the approach to the lower right figure, the
directional movement in tne railing the draw of our eyes to the
round wheel shape. So what might be causing the difference in the
upper half?

Well as you've indicated, your eyes enter the image and are drawn
down from the top in the direction of the light source. Thats
entirely understandable and nothing wrong with that ...I'm
drawn to enter this image through the areas of greatest contrast -
the central figure, and the hot ( or bright area under the
railing and elbow.) I've drawn in a large strong red directional
arrow indicating this.

I am also drawn to the foreground first as it has the greatest
amount of information. The tendancy of our eyes is to look early on
at the larger closer figures, and move back into perspective space
at the smaller objects and figures, though not always.

And in this image, i find the balance teeters toward movement in
favor of either direction, down from the light source at the top,
or may also be read as foreground interest proceeding in and
upward. Either way returns our eyes to figure ground relationships
in an organized space. Here we have the benefit of refering to the
three variations of of Marcels snow scene where we've seen how
small editing adjustments can tip the balance redirecting
perpetual movement in a photo.

For example imagine the effects compositionally of reducing, or
toning back the bright higlights in the water - through the
railing for example, and reducing or elimanating the brightest
whites at the top center. Yes, I agree all " worthy perceptions "
and from a wonderfull diversity of participants. I know I've
benefited from the opportunity to exercise seeing in new and
meaningfull ways in this thread, as I hope others have as well.

Regards
Norman

Yes there are simularities in ours, but seems one big difference is
I tend to see the sunlit water at the top and flow down into photo
and you see it almost the oppisite. I think both are worthy
perceptions. Just the way we look at it?

Bill....meaningfull simulaties in our variations.

.....and meaningfull differences

Your variation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=4445247 .

My variation of Shutters beach photo below:



Shutters variation below:

In the next thread we'll have the opportunity to further explore
both competing elements and complementary opposites in our photos.
The challenge for me is to design the visual exercise component
that will involve and benefit a wide variety of paticipants.

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman
http://www.pbase.com/norman/dsc_f717_expressions

 

[Marcel-Etienne56998]

Who would have believed it when it started? We have now reached the 150 posts mark with this thread on purely visual matters — and what a memorable thread it has proved to be! Some of the views exchanged were truly fascinating, IMO, and progress was made at a speed far beyond my personal expectations. This augurs well for the future.

There is an interesting coincidence in the fact that in the end some of us felt compelled to go back to Shutter's fascinating beach scene and give a visual interpretation of movement as they saw it — careful variations, showing how much in common we already have and how much our individual variations can bring to the fore.

I am also sincerely convinced that through the use of such methods, our photographic skills will slowly build up to an even more impressive total. There is a lot to learn here, not only for the beginner but also for the experienced photographer who wants to widen his range of perceptions and his ability to transmit them (another major aspect of photographic or any other artistic means of creation: whatever we may feel deep inside, it's pretty useless if we can't communicate it to other people).

Last, I would like to thank all the participants: you Norman first of all, for your patience, your careful understanding and your 'relaxed attention' throughout the thread — and all the others as well: Bill, Luis, Pondria, Shutter, SmokinMan, to name but a few... It has been a privilege to take part in this, and I'm eagerly looking forward to further developments.

variation below by Marcel



Amazing- 149 posts and its just getting, well more interesting
(still - I mean movement ....And i'm running late..out the
door....wanted this variation included in the thread...terrific
contribution....more speed moving right to left follows the
direction of heads, again simularites with differences, to
paraphraze nzmacro,: composition, what a wonderful world, ...

--
Marcel-Etienne
http://www.pbase.com/braudel2001

'I don't believe in the absolute picture. There can only be approximations, experiments and beginnings, over and over again.' (Gerhard Richter)