Using 10-bit HEIF image files in Windows

[Kenneth Ekman]

I have been using mainly Windows at home, and think Microsoft usually does an ok job at supporting and updating their products.

Recently I got a Canon Eos R6 II camera, which supports HDR images since the sensor supports 10-bit. With previous photo gear, I have usually been using JPEG images (for compatibility and size), even though I have played around a bit with RAW images as well.

So I find there is a slightly more modern file format (.HIF, high efficiency image format, which seem to be around ten years old now) than JPEG available now that has better compression and supports HDR images, so I want to try it out.

I have installed Canon Digital Photo Professional, and it's nice, but I still want to manage my image collection directly in the operating system's file browser.

To my surprise Microsoft does not support it out of the box, but recommends installing both a free HEIF image addition, and a HEVC video addition which costs around 1 dollar. I have installed both (and payed for the HEVC addition), but it still does not work for the 10-bit HIF files produced by my Canon Eos R6 II camera.

It does work for 8-bit HIF / HEIF files produced by my OnePlus phone, however.

Has anyone tried HIF/HEIF/HEIC files with cameras from other brands? Does it work for anyone with a modern Sony, Nikon or Sony camera?

I think it is a tragedy when the use and adoption of new improved image file formats are held back by big companies like in this case when Microsoft does not seem to take their part of the responsibility.

What do others think?

 

[CAcreeks]

Has anyone tried HIF/HEIF/HEIC files with cameras from other brands? Does it work for anyone with a modern Sony, Nikon or [Fujifilm] camera?

Not sure about the others, but it works with Sony.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67539804

The Canon R forum has a question about it, but so far the thread is inconclusive.

Adobe has "gain map" for real HDR, but for me it's only visible in Google Chrome. Samples are in AVIF, JPEG, and JXL - but not HEIF, which might be a dead-end format.

 

[gscotten]

I think it is a tragedy when the use and adoption of new improved image file formats are held back by big companies like in this case when Microsoft does not seem to take their part of the responsibility.

"Improvements" to the JPG format have come and gone ever since the format was created. Not enough people care about minor reductions in file size to deal with the incompatibities they impose. I think the only one that has survived is JPEG2000, which nobody I know has ever used. It offers most of what Apple is trying to forcefeed us by setting iPhones to HEIF/HEVC instead of JPG.

 

[Kenneth Ekman]

I think it is a tragedy when the use and adoption of new improved image file formats are held back by big companies like in this case when Microsoft does not seem to take their part of the responsibility.

"Improvements" to the JPG format have come and gone ever since the format was created. Not enough people care about minor reductions in file size to deal with the incompatibities they impose. I think the only one that has survived is JPEG2000, which nobody I know has ever used. It offers most of what Apple is trying to forcefeed us by setting iPhones to HEIF/HEVC instead of JPG.

 

[gscotten]

I think it is a tragedy when the use and adoption of new improved image file formats are held back by big companies like in this case when Microsoft does not seem to take their part of the responsibility.

"Improvements" to the JPG format have come and gone ever since the format was created. Not enough people care about minor reductions in file size to deal with the incompatibities they impose. I think the only one that has survived is JPEG2000, which nobody I know has ever used. It offers most of what Apple is trying to forcefeed us by setting iPhones to HEIF/HEVC instead of JPG.

The main thing that HEIF offers is not offered by jpeg2000 and that is the increased bit depth to 16 bit. An interesting thing is that Windows 11 supports Canon raw files (CR3), but not 10-bit HEIF files. This feels inconsistent.

But raw, TIFF, and a dozen other formats support that. Many of us see no need for another proprietary format, and I suspect Microsoft doesn't either.

 

[Billiam29]

The HEVC video format is fairly heavily patent-encumered. I couldn’t find a definitive answer, but it seems reasonable to assume that the HEIF/HEIC image file format would probably also fall under this since it is effectively a sub-section or “child” spec of the “parent” video format.

If Wikipedia is to be believed, then the section of the article on HEVC linked below probably contains the answers to why Microsoft has taken the stance it has with the format. Albeit not necessarily for the lack of 10-bit support over simple 8-bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#Patent_license_terms

 

[Kenneth Ekman]

This is interesting and explains why they have decided to deliver HEVC support as a payed add-on. I don't have a problem with that, but the lack of working 10-bit support is still just a bug I think.

 

[Henry Richardson]

Here is a video about shooting HIF.

By the way, Windows 11 can handle HIF (HEIF/HEIC) files and so can MacOS. But on both I use the free XnView MP as my photo browser that I can cull, compare photos side-by-side, etc.:

https://www.xnview.com/en/

 

[CAcreeks]

Here is a video about shooting HIF.

By the way, Windows 11 can handle HIF (HEIF/HEIC) files and so can MacOS. But on both I use the free XnView MP as my photo browser that I can cull, compare photos side-by-side, etc.:

https://www.xnview.com/en/

Pronounced hyfe to rhyme with life?

I would say hif to rhyme with gif.

Apple pronounced HEIF as heaf to rhyme with leaf.

 

[Henry Richardson]

Here is a video about shooting HIF.

By the way, Windows 11 can handle HIF (HEIF/HEIC) files and so can MacOS. But on both I use the free XnView MP as my photo browser that I can cull, compare photos side-by-side, etc.:

https://www.xnview.com/en/

Here is another video about shooting HIF (HEIF/HEIC):

Shooting Football with Sony's HIF files: Tons More Dynamic Range

 

[XiaoDeer]

The nice thing about standards is... we have so many to choose from

 

[Sean Nelson]

Pronounced hyfe to rhyme with life?

I would say hif to rhyme with gif.

Apple pronounced HEIF as heaf to rhyme with leaf.

How about "heff" as in the first syllable of "heifer"? ;-)

Geez, this is worse than the controversy over "GIFF" vs "JIFF"...

 

[Henry Richardson]

HEIF vs JPG Image Quality Comparison

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64915768

Interesting post with photo examples.

 

[Henry Richardson]

Sony, Canon, Fuji, Nikon, Panasonic, Apple, and maybe other cameras create HEIF, JPEG, and raw files. Probably OM Systems (formerly Olympus) will start supporting it too since they are pretty much alone now, I think. I do not recall any camera companies producing JPEG2000, etc. photo files so HEIF is different in that extremely important respect than other file formats.

Windows, MacOS, Android, and iOS support HEIF. Probably Linux too.

I will note that raw files also have compatibility issues. You must process them and make a JPEG to share them on websites, email, social media, etc.

HEIF is not a raw replacement. It may not even be a JPEG replacement, but it is more like a better JPEG in the sense the files are smaller yet 10-bit HEIF instead of 8-bit JPEG. An HEIF file from a camera can easily be made into a JPEG, just as a raw file can.

 

[Kenneth Ekman]

Windows, MacOS, Android, and iOS support HEIF. Probably Linux too.

I agree with all you are saying, except, Windows supports 8-bit HEIF, but it does not support the 10-bit HEIF files that a Canon R camera produces when HDR is enabled, unfortunately.

It seems to have the same problem with 10-bit HEIF files from a recent OPPO phone found here https://github.com/ImageMagick/ImageMagick/discussions/3883 too.

That's the only two types of 10-bit HEIFs I have been able to test with so far. I would like to test with others if I could find any.

Edit: I just tried on my Ubuntu 22.04 at work, and yes it produces thumbnails nicely with the OPPO 10-bit HEIF in the file explorer unlike Windows 11.

 

[CAcreeks]

HEIF vs JPG Image Quality Comparison

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64915768

Interesting post with photo examples.

Image comparison here:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2CJDw7S/0/6fd4379d/O/i-2CJDw7S.png

It's interesting that HEIC quality is worse across the board than JPEG quality 20 and below. Possibly libheif on Github needs more work.

 

[Henry Richardson]

HEIF vs JPG Image Quality Comparison

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64915768

Interesting post with photo examples.

Image comparison here:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2CJDw7S/0/6fd4379d/O/i-2CJDw7S.png

It's interesting that HEIC quality is worse across the board than JPEG quality 20 and below. Possibly libheif on Github needs more work.

I recommend people read the 2021 link I provided in addition to merely seeing the image because it gives context and explains things. It is just an example (and non-photographic at that) of HEIF using some sort of (free?) tool. The cameras that produce HEIF files may do similar, better, or worse.

I recall about 20 years ago someone did a JPEG comparison using Photoshop and several other programs comparing different compression levels. They were not equal. Some created better JPEGs than others. Maybe it is the same for HEIF.

By the way, a Photoshop level 20 JPEG is extremely compressed. I sure never use that. I usually use 60-100.

 

[Henry Richardson]

Windows, MacOS, Android, and iOS support HEIF. Probably Linux too.

I agree with all you are saying, except, Windows supports 8-bit HEIF, but it does not support the 10-bit HEIF files that a Canon R camera produces when HDR is enabled, unfortunately.

It seems to have the same problem with 10-bit HEIF files from a recent OPPO phone found here https://github.com/ImageMagick/ImageMagick/discussions/3883 too.

That's the only two types of 10-bit HEIFs I have been able to test with so far. I would like to test with others if I could find any.

Edit: I just tried on my Ubuntu 22.04 at work, and yes it produces thumbnails nicely with the OPPO 10-bit HEIF in the file explorer unlike Windows 11.

I have a Sony A6700. On my Win11 PC I found that HEIF 4:2:0 files have thumbnails in File Explorer and can be opened properly with the Windows Photo app. And HEIF 4:2:2 files have thumbnails in File Explorer but cannot be opened properly with the Windows Photo app. Sony says that both 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 are 10-bit. I use HEIF 4:2:2 and Fine compression.

I rarely use the thumbnails view with Windows File Explorer and MacOS Finder though. For over 20 years on Windows I use Faststone for my photo browsing, culling, comparing photos side-by-side, etc. Unfortunately, the current version of Faststone does not support HEIF files, but I sent a request in a few months ago. Therefore on both Windows and MacOS I use XnView MP which does support HEIF. For me, it is a non-issue since I have always used a better photo browser than File Explorer and Finder.

 

[Kenneth Ekman]

I rarely use the thumbnails view with Windows File Explorer and MacOS Finder though. For over 20 years on Windows I use Faststone for my photo browsing, culling, comparing photos side-by-side, etc. Unfortunately, the current version of Faststone does not support HEIF files, but I sent a request in a few months ago. Therefore on both Windows and MacOS I use XnView MP which does support HEIF. For me, it is a non-issue since I have always used a better photo browser than File Explorer and Finder.

I have earlier been using Photoshop Elements and digiKam for managing my images, but I keep getting disappointed with media management software as they usually keep their own databases for image-related metadata which makes it really hard to switch to something else if / when support for one falters.

I would appreciate an image management software that does not create it's own database, but just uses standard image / video metadata to store content, geography, time or other metadata.

I downloaded the free version of XnView, and it does not handle the 10-bit Canon images unfortunately, btw.

 

[Sean Nelson]

I would appreciate an image management software that does not create it's own database, but just uses standard image / video metadata to store content, geography, time or other metadata.

I have no problem with proprietary databases as long as the software also stores the same information in the image files themselves (for example, in JPG EXIF metadata tags). That way the data can be used by other software, including searches using Windows Explorer, for example.

Data stored in a proprietary database can be accessed a lot faster than if the software has to scan through tens of thousands of individual image files each time you try to search for something. And if you switch to a new image management package, it can populate its own proprietary database from the metadata in the image files.