SD9 Resolution prediction

[mango]

My statement was that the X3 sensor

captures three times the amount of data as a Bayer design....The > extra data captured will
manifest itself in different ways. Part of the increase will go
toward resolution. Part of it toward color fidelity. Part of it
toward sharpness.

Thanks Mike for the thread. You explain this clearly. Anyone wanting to get a grip on the Fovion should take some time to ponder what Mike wrote here. 3 times more data...how will this data be manifest in images? Sharpness, resolution, color fidelity. There may be more ways. A 3 MP Fovion would not have the resolution of a 9 MP Bayer camera. But the images will carry more data about a scene than a 6 MP Bayer. The data in a Bayer-image is heavily weighted towards spacial resolution, per pixel color fidelity and sharpness are sacrificed. The data in a monochrome sensor is weighted towards spacial resolution and sharpness, but color is sacrificed. The data in a fovion sensor image equally favors spacial resolution, color fidelity, and sharpness...but file size is sacrificed...the RAW data-file from a Fovion sensor is 3 times as big as the RAW data-file from an equal pixel-count Bayer sensor.

 

[dove-7]

Folks let's face it. Foveon is indeed sharper than a Bayer sensor. I was fist hipped to the Canon 1ds this past summer. A seller at a local camera store here in Michigan praised this camera. His point to me was that the image is much sharper than the Foveon image from Sigma. I became intrigued. I asked for the brochure on this $8,000.00 plus camera. When I looked at the image on the front of the brochure, I was dissapointed. The image wasn't that sharp at all. The first thing that I look at when I am viewing any image, paticulary digital, are the eyes of the subject being photographed. The eyes taken with a Canon 1ds weren't sharp. When I look as Foveon Sigma sd9, the image is incredibly sharp. YEah, yeah, yeah, we can argue the color thing. Big deal. And yes it is a big deal. But Foveon will correct this problem. In my opinion, the new Fuji slr image is sharper than the Sd1.

I'm predicting that the Sigma won't be the camera that all photographers, be professionals and amatuer pros alike will priase. But I am predicting that the Foveon will be the techonolgy that will force the other camera companies to adopt. Canon knows this, otherwise they wouldn't come out with a $8,000.00 camera to proove this. My 2 cents.

. . . . It is theoretically possible,
given pure white and black lines, for a CFA interpolation algorithm
to give you the limit of resolution, for example 1000 line pairs
given 2000 linear pixels (or 2000 [lines] in terminology used
here). After all, some data is being captured at every sensor,
hence you have a whole line of everything 0, so even if the values
of green on both sides were 255, the red pixel being 0 should
result in some attenuation in the green signal. . . .

That's not correct for any Bayer implementation used in typical
digital cameras. As the feature size drops toward the theoretical
resolution limit, the artifacts gradually overwhelm the image, and
below the limit there really isn't any image at all - only
artifacts. If you have lines more closely spaced than 1.4 pixels
the image doesn't record a number of lines that corresponds to the
target, and trying to count the lines simply allows you to
characterize the artifacts.

In fact, if the target consists of black lines exactly 1 pixel wide
which are separated by 1 pixel white spaces, the captured image
will be precisely flat gray, with no modulation whatever, because
each 2x2 sub-array of sensors will grab an image that's half-black
and half-white. I suppose the RAW image captured by some cameras
might permit you to extract a non-averaged image, but the
theoretical limit of any system that uses 2x2 averaging really is
1.414 pixels.

 

[dove-7]

Good points Dana. Age isn't always the factor to knowing and not knowing. As for Intel, they weren't the orginal owners of the Pentium processor. Like the Celeron that was sold to them by another company. So was the Pentium.

Dana,
You must be a young one! The Intel powered PC is more than twenty
years old, and much of the software written for it (on the 8088,
DOS 1.0) will still run on a P4 XP machine! WAY before the Motorola
PowerPC/DEC Alpha/IBM RISC stuff. (At a local USAF base, we've
replaced several RISC machines with PCs!)
I live with only 4.1 megapixels in my 1D ... which I can do,
because I'm old!
Ken

I didn't mean before Intel! I was already into computers when the
8088 came out though (in high school I think). I don't recall much
frenzy about 68k vs. x86 regarding MHz, but I do remember it in the
workstations. Then Intel started playing in earnest, and AMD's
competition has really spurred them on. Remember, before the
Pentium, x86 machines were pretty pathetic in floating point,
making them not a player at all in the workstation market. Well,
yes, I had a 486 I did software development on, but it was over 2x
slower on FP than the Sparcs, whcih were no speed demons compared
to the HP and IBM machines. Cheap though.

My point was actually that people went over this whole MHz rules
thing before Intel started playing that game in the consumer
market. Not before Intel started making CPUs! (which would be
before Sun was incorporated, before MIPS, etc.).

 

[dove-7]

Don,

yes and no. Indeed monopolizing seems to constantly come out on top. But do realize this, within these so called 'brute force' is that same 'brute force' that buy out that superior techonology in order to endure the competition by buying out the competion. Intel is a prime example. They aren't the inventors of the Pentium processors. Pentium was bought and adopted the name Pentium by Intel. It is obvious to why they prevailed, because they bought this company out. But this still doesn't mean that guys like AMD won't and can't previal. AMD has prooven this. Forcing Intel to come out with a Pentium 4 a few years or two back. Because AMD was giving them competition and at one time were out selling Pentium. This same analogy came be used for the Foveon vs Bayer vs Sigma vs Canon 1ds. Sigma may not prevail because of the Psyhcology that people get sucked into, like they do with the "I got to have a Pentium" syndrome. But like Pentium being the one on top because of the Technology that they bought. So will Canon and Nikon will too. People do wake up and smell the fresh coffee. They saw this with AMD. I know of stores here in my area that stop selling Pentium as their primary product and instead made AMD their primary seller. One it's cost less and is just as good.

Like I posted on another forum. This is why Canon made a 8,000.00 camera. They won't tell you this. But we hve to use our common senses. But I also won't forget about the tradition on Nikon and Canon users who own those expensive lenses that they aren't giving up to move over to a newer camera because of the newer and in my opinion better technology that Foveon has put out.

• DL

Dana,
You must be a young one! The Intel powered PC is more than twenty
years old, and much of the software written for it (on the 8088,
DOS 1.0) will still run on a P4 XP machine! WAY before the Motorola
PowerPC/DEC Alpha/IBM RISC stuff. (At a local USAF base, we've
replaced several RISC machines with PCs!)

 

[dove-7]

I agree Dhraj. But let's also remember too that the 1ds isn't a ccd but a Cmos technology like the Foveon. But it's still differen't from the Foveon techonology.

1) Lens quality
2) Camera shake
3) Bayer CCD vs Foveon.
3) In extreme cases, even the heat waves in the atmosphere.

When you look at all these factors, it turns out, there isn't much
point going beyond 6-7 MP for P/S digital cameras and 10-12 MP for
SLRs.

So, once you start looking at Foveon next generation at 6MP or
more, you won't be able to beat its resolution just by increasing
pixel count and if the Foveon claims are true and if it scales to
6MP+, then either Canon/Nikon etc will follow the suit or they will
have to come up with some radically different technology.

Once resolution is not a factor, Foveon wins hands down (assuming
their published claims are true).

Note on color bandwidth: While it is true that objects have more
luminance bandwidth than chrominance, it is not as easy to exploit
this for photos as it is for video (it is much easier to exploit
for video, since in video, the scenes are changing fast and your
eye cannot feel the difference. in photos, you can concentrate on a
part of photo and can detect the fault much easily).

--dhiraj

I was just over in the "News Discussion" forum, and I can't quite
believe the arguments for/against the Foveon sensor.

Believe me, I am just as anxious for the state of the art in sensor
design to advance as the next guy; and I am VERY interested in
seeing indepentend tests of the SD9... but when I see messages such
as "it's the same as a 10Mp Bayer CCD for resolution" I just groan.

Here is a solid prediction:

The SD9 will have:

Horizontal LPH
Vertical LPH

Why?

Because there is NO way around Nyquest... or, to explain it to
those readers who never heard of Nyquest... think of alternating
black & white lines. Even if they are perfectly aligned with the
photo receptors it will take one photo receptor to read "white" and
one to read "black".. so you CANNOT resolve (on a rectangular
layout) more than 1/2 the number of line pairs as you have photo
receptors on that axis.

It is true that if you are trying to resolve Green/Black, Red/Black
or Blue/Black lines the bayer sensor will be at a disadvantage;
however as colors are rarely pure primary colors the de-bayering
algorithm can compensate to a certain extent.

If the Foveon proponents merely pointed out that the Foveon will
have a more accurate spatial color resolution, I'd have no argument

• but arguing that a 3Mp Foveon sensor will resolve as much detail

as a 6Mp Bayer is a MUCH weaker argument.

If you are interested in the LPH/V of S2/D100/D60 look at Phil's S2
review at the bottom of
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujis2pro/page19.asp

Now a 6Mp Foveon sensor capable of ISO1600 would be a wonderful
thing... but by the time that arrives, Nikon/Canon/Fuji will be
shipping 12Mp-16Mp bayer sensors.

You just HAVE to love a tech "arms" race

Personally, I'd rather be out there shooting than arguing the
merits of existing sensor tech vs. yet unreleased sensor tech. The
fact is any of the current DSLR's are capable of producing great
results - so enjoy photography!

Best Regards,

Bill

--
http://whphotography.com/
http://www.cpureview.com/

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Just curious why you are responding to a year old thread.

RIL

yes and no. Indeed monopolizing seems to constantly come out on
top. But do realize this, within these so called 'brute force' is
that same 'brute force' that buy out that superior techonology in
order to endure the competition by buying out the competion. Intel
is a prime example. They aren't the inventors of the Pentium
processors. Pentium was bought and adopted the name Pentium by
Intel. It is obvious to why they prevailed, because they bought
this company out. But this still doesn't mean that guys like AMD
won't and can't previal. AMD has prooven this. Forcing Intel to
come out with a Pentium 4 a few years or two back. Because AMD was
giving them competition and at one time were out selling Pentium.
This same analogy came be used for the Foveon vs Bayer vs Sigma vs
Canon 1ds. Sigma may not prevail because of the Psyhcology that
people get sucked into, like they do with the "I got to have a
Pentium" syndrome. But like Pentium being the one on top because of
the Technology that they bought. So will Canon and Nikon will too.
People do wake up and smell the fresh coffee. They saw this with
AMD. I know of stores here in my area that stop selling Pentium as
their primary product and instead made AMD their primary seller.
One it's cost less and is just as good.

Like I posted on another forum. This is why Canon made a 8,000.00
camera. They won't tell you this. But we hve to use our common
senses. But I also won't forget about the tradition on Nikon and
Canon users who own those expensive lenses that they aren't giving
up to move over to a newer camera because of the newer and in my
opinion better technology that Foveon has put out.

• DL

Dana,
You must be a young one! The Intel powered PC is more than twenty
years old, and much of the software written for it (on the 8088,
DOS 1.0) will still run on a P4 XP machine! WAY before the Motorola
PowerPC/DEC Alpha/IBM RISC stuff. (At a local USAF base, we've
replaced several RISC machines with PCs!)

 

[dove-7]

Didn't realize that it was that old. But regardless, I'd figured that someone would reply to it. I was originally on a updated forum and a poster posted this forum regarding the still on going debate. Anyways, I still say that the Foveon has a sharper image than the over priced Canon 1ds. I was on the Calumet website and they have dropped the price from 8,000 to 7,000 and now lower.

RIL

yes and no. Indeed monopolizing seems to constantly come out on
top. But do realize this, within these so called 'brute force' is
that same 'brute force' that buy out that superior techonology in
order to endure the competition by buying out the competion. Intel
is a prime example. They aren't the inventors of the Pentium
processors. Pentium was bought and adopted the name Pentium by
Intel. It is obvious to why they prevailed, because they bought
this company out. But this still doesn't mean that guys like AMD
won't and can't previal. AMD has prooven this. Forcing Intel to
come out with a Pentium 4 a few years or two back. Because AMD was
giving them competition and at one time were out selling Pentium.
This same analogy came be used for the Foveon vs Bayer vs Sigma vs
Canon 1ds. Sigma may not prevail because of the Psyhcology that
people get sucked into, like they do with the "I got to have a
Pentium" syndrome. But like Pentium being the one on top because of
the Technology that they bought. So will Canon and Nikon will too.
People do wake up and smell the fresh coffee. They saw this with
AMD. I know of stores here in my area that stop selling Pentium as
their primary product and instead made AMD their primary seller.
One it's cost less and is just as good.

Like I posted on another forum. This is why Canon made a 8,000.00
camera. They won't tell you this. But we hve to use our common
senses. But I also won't forget about the tradition on Nikon and
Canon users who own those expensive lenses that they aren't giving
up to move over to a newer camera because of the newer and in my
opinion better technology that Foveon has put out.

• DL

Dana,
You must be a young one! The Intel powered PC is more than twenty
years old, and much of the software written for it (on the 8088,
DOS 1.0) will still run on a P4 XP machine! WAY before the Motorola
PowerPC/DEC Alpha/IBM RISC stuff. (At a local USAF base, we've
replaced several RISC machines with PCs!)

 

[Michael Long]

over priced Canon 1ds. I was on the Calumet website and they have
dropped the price from 8,000 to 7,000 and now lower.

The 1Ds at B&H sells for $7195, after starting at $7995. It's dropped about 10% since introduction.

The SD9, on the other hand, now sells for $1099, after starting at $1799.

Or to put it another way, it's fallen in value over 40% since its introduction. (Actually, a local store was trying to push one off its shelf for $899, as it's sat there collecting dust for 5 months, but to be fair, I'll stick with B&H pricing.)

Now, 10%... 40%... which camera, again, was overpriced?

 

[David M.]

Just curious why you are responding to a year old thread.

A little slow on the draw perhaps?

RIL

yes and no. Indeed monopolizing seems to constantly come out on
top. But do realize this, within these so called 'brute force' is
that same 'brute force' that buy out that superior techonology in
order to endure the competition by buying out the competion. Intel
is a prime example. They aren't the inventors of the Pentium
processors. Pentium was bought and adopted the name Pentium by
Intel. It is obvious to why they prevailed, because they bought
this company out. But this still doesn't mean that guys like AMD
won't and can't previal. AMD has prooven this. Forcing Intel to
come out with a Pentium 4 a few years or two back. Because AMD was
giving them competition and at one time were out selling Pentium.
This same analogy came be used for the Foveon vs Bayer vs Sigma vs
Canon 1ds. Sigma may not prevail because of the Psyhcology that
people get sucked into, like they do with the "I got to have a
Pentium" syndrome. But like Pentium being the one on top because of
the Technology that they bought. So will Canon and Nikon will too.
People do wake up and smell the fresh coffee. They saw this with
AMD. I know of stores here in my area that stop selling Pentium as
their primary product and instead made AMD their primary seller.
One it's cost less and is just as good.

Like I posted on another forum. This is why Canon made a 8,000.00
camera. They won't tell you this. But we hve to use our common
senses. But I also won't forget about the tradition on Nikon and
Canon users who own those expensive lenses that they aren't giving
up to move over to a newer camera because of the newer and in my
opinion better technology that Foveon has put out.

• DL

Dana,
You must be a young one! The Intel powered PC is more than twenty
years old, and much of the software written for it (on the 8088,
DOS 1.0) will still run on a P4 XP machine! WAY before the Motorola
PowerPC/DEC Alpha/IBM RISC stuff. (At a local USAF base, we've
replaced several RISC machines with PCs!)

 

[dove-7]

over priced Canon 1ds. I was on the Calumet website and they have
dropped the price from 8,000 to 7,000 and now lower.

The 1Ds at B&H sells for $7195, after starting at $7995. It's
dropped about 10% since introduction.

The SD9, on the other hand, now sells for $1099, after starting at
$1799.

Or to put it another way, it's fallen in value over 40% since its
introduction. (Actually, a local store was trying to push one off
its shelf for $899, as it's sat there collecting dust for 5 months,
but to be fair, I'll stick with B&H pricing.)

Now, 10%... 40%... which camera, again, was overpriced?

Which camera is over priced? Most definetly the Canon 1ds. Regardless of 10% vs 40%, B&H and Calumet neither aren't going to drop the price down too steep, because of the street value/price. I think it's not the issue of over pricing when it comes to dropping down the price at these camera stores. But more of the issue of lack of consumer buying. So when you have this, you become desperate and sell it at any price. I think that the Sigma is a fair price. As for the Canon, the only way that I'd own that camera is that it has to be given to me as a gift or I won it. 8,000 plus is rediculous for a camera that still isn't as sharp as the Foveon image. More hype than hope. I'l stick with film before I spend that kind of money if I want sharpeness. film is still better. But I'll take the Foveon Sigma. That priced aint bad a twall.

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Tired of the Bayer trying to proove a point.

You reopened a year old thread. The only person trying to "proove" a point here is you.

Odd way to introduce yourself to the group.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Good points Dana. Age isn't always the factor to knowing and not
knowing. As for Intel, they weren't the orginal owners of the
Pentium processor. Like the Celeron that was sold to them by
another company. So was the Pentium.

I am curious why you said this. It is so blatently untrue that you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe or agree with it, and too crude to hook any fish for a really good argument.

As a troll, you are an unmitigated failure.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Just curious why you are responding to a year old thread.

He's just trolling. He's created this boorish character and he's test driving it to see how we react. This has to be a created persona: no one could have such a lack of basic economic theory, the semiconductior industry, marketing, and the capabilities of the cameras.

My guess is he has some sort of grudge against Sigma, and he's trying to use this "drooling fan" character to make Sigma fans look silly.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[dove-7]

Wrong Mr. Nobody. The only one that's trying to proove a point is you, yourself. Stop trying to grandstand here. So what I was making a point. There's no mystery behind that. So what I replied to a year old thread. If you are so concerned about a year old thread, then why in hell did you take the time to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy back, yourself, only to try to show off? Stop making an ass out of yourself.

As my point was explained to a poster who asked me earlier, I came here and replied because on a more updated forum, a poster forward this site. But obviously it isn't that outdated because people like you and others have come back to re-read and 're-reply' to 'old 'news'. Take all of that energy of anger and get a life. It's only the internet where we come and give our 'points of view' and 'opinion'. It's only about a camera, man. Not about politics. So debate about my point of view on the camera and not what time of day I decide to post. That choice is given to me and anyone on here. If I need a pest to post only to nagg me, then I'll hire you. So far I haven't called. Lol. Man, some people have issues and want to post them on the net.

Tired of the Bayer trying to proove a point.

You reopened a year old thread. The only person trying to "proove"
a point here is you.

Odd way to introduce yourself to the group.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Michael Salzlechner]

on a message that is more than a year old.

I would say in that case it wasnt a failure after all ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

photos at http://www.salzlechner.com/photo

 

[dove-7]

Michael you are correct. So far Joe has replied to my point of view 3 times. Twice on this 'old' forum and once on the updated site. I think that Joe is infatuated with me. It's time to grow up. Come with a more mature argument and stop acting like a child.

on a message that is more than a year old.

I would say in that case it wasnt a failure after all ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

photos at http://www.salzlechner.com/photo

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

on a message that is more than a year old.

I would say in that case it wasnt a failure after all ...

If all he can hook is someone who collects, rnaks, and critiques trolls, they he has, indeed, failed.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[dove-7]

Poor Joe. Opps excuse me. Joseph. A man who has nothing better to do but to come with irrelevant arguments but to insult, only to insult himself because it brings out the fool in him with the foolish behavior. Behave my poor dissillusioned friend. For it's only the internet. Don't let the internet be a spider web to you, only to get trapped in your own web of confusion that you weave up only to entrapped others in your confused Helter Skelter world. It's big world out there, you should get off of your computer for a month or two and venture out into that big world to see that there is more to life than to be bitter about nothing. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Sorry sad man.

One more thing, stop contradicting yourself by calling the tea kettle black. You continue to reply on a old forum. You hypocrite.

on a message that is more than a year old.

I would say in that case it wasnt a failure after all ...

If all he can hook is someone who collects, rnaks, and critiques
trolls, they he has, indeed, failed.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[dove-7]

on a message that is more than a year old.

I would say in that case it wasnt a failure after all ...

If all he can hook is someone who collects, rnaks, and critiques
trolls, they he has, indeed, failed.

What's the matter Joe? Cat got your tongue?

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com