R5 intervalometer exposure issues

[zeniki2]

Which shutter did you use M, EFC or ES?

 

[John Sheehy]

Definitely worth testing and I shall do so, but why would the metadata in the image have a 13s exposure?

Maybe there's a firmware bug (or unusual "feature") that keeps the intended exposure time, while the camera also terminates the exposures prematurely to meet the intervalometer timing?

How often did the camera seem to start a new exposure? What was the total amount of time vs number of photos?

 

[John Sheehy]

<edit> I just tried myself, never activated it before, and jeez did Canon make a mess with that option... I could not make it work :/

After reading this I had to try it on my R3. Haven't done that before either.

Piece of cake, though. Worked immediately. Took five pictures three seconds apart.

So, it seems that the intervalometer is working sort of like a bulb mode that releases the "bulb" in time for the next scheduled image, even if it cuts it short.

I guess there are 3 basic ways that an intervalometer can be done. One is like that, above; another is to just take full intended exposure times back-to-back if the intended exposure time is greater than the interval, and the third would be waiting for the next precise interval (in unbroken interval timing) before the next exposure.

 

[John Sheehy]

I have never had it underexpose shots to achieve the required interval & selected number of shots. Maybe this is a new thing on the R5 ? Otherwise I have no idea what this under-exposure issue is as I have never seen it before.

If he OP's issue was by camera design, then perhaps the fields in the EXIF might show a second actual exposure time, other than the intended exposure time.

 

[John Sheehy]

Try setting an interval time about 2 seconds longer than your exposure time. There are plenty of articles and videos on this. The time you set is the repeat time for exposures, NOT the “interval between images”. As far as I’m aware all “intervalometers” whether inbuilt or external, work this way.

An assumption like that probably comes from the confounder present when one shoots at, say, 1/2000 with an intervalometer, in which case the interval is about the same as the time between exposures.

This is the phenomenon, I believe (unseen confounders) that makes people draw incorrect conclusions about causality. That's why exposure and brightness get conflated, for example. The terminology evolved when people were shooting film with a fixed ISO/ASA, where the brightness and exposure varied together, always, with the same film or film of the same ISO/ASA. Same for aperture; when most people are shooting with 50mm lenses, or individuals only use 50mm lenses, then conflating aperture and the inverse of the f-ratio does not lead to errors in judgement within those confines.

 

[zeniki2]

I was out photographing the northern lights last night. Manual exposure. F4, iso3200, 13seconds. Everything was exposed perfectly. I then turned on the intervalometer to record a sequence of images for a timelapse, same exposure settings, but the images were all 3 or 4 stops underexposed.

Reviewing the images on the camera showed exactly the same settings from the metadata of the images, but they were underexposed.

I've done a very small experiment in the daylight this morning and everything seems to be.

Any ideas?

Maybe you used ES which can not do longer than 0.5 sec ?

 

[John Sheehy]

You read correctly, 1 sec, not 2. I set the interval to 5 sec and it didn't change one bit, still 1 sec. That's probably because the exposure time is longer than the interval time so it shortens to the minimum.

If that's what happened it makes perfect sense. You made a stupid setting - the camera did the best it could out of it.

Of course, we buy cameras to take photos; not to test our knowledge, so the camera could do better by giving you options, namely the three I gave in another post here:

1 Terminate exposures longer than the interval to meet the interval.

2 Take an exposure precisely on the intervals, if the camera is ready to do so completing the previous intended exposure.

3 start the next exposure as soon as possible if the previous exposure was longer than the interval.

Of course, you will also need to consider how an exposure mode like Av or P, which can automate exposure time (especially when ISO is fixed), plays into all of this.

This stuff is all Programming Kindergarten stuff, really. Manufacturers are just cheap with options.

 

[Paul Gath]

Definitely worth testing and I shall do so, but why would the metadata in the image have a 13s exposure?

Maybe there's a firmware bug (or unusual "feature") that keeps the intended exposure time, while the camera also terminates the exposures prematurely to meet the intervalometer timing?

How often did the camera seem to start a new exposure? What was the total amount of time vs number of photos?

 

[Paul Gath]

Which shutter did you use M, EFC or ES?

M

 

[Paul Gath]

I was out photographing the northern lights last night. Manual exposure. F4, iso3200, 13seconds. Everything was exposed perfectly. I then turned on the intervalometer to record a sequence of images for a timelapse, same exposure settings, but the images were all 3 or 4 stops underexposed.

Reviewing the images on the camera showed exactly the same settings from the metadata of the images, but they were underexposed.

I've done a very small experiment in the daylight this morning and everything seems to be.

Any ideas?

Maybe you used ES which can not do longer than 0.5 sec ?

Nope, mechanical shutter. I didn't change anything between turning on and off the intervalometer.

 

[John Sheehy]

I know one more victim trapped by the Canon interval timer when I read the title.

So many cases. Canon, can you listen to the users, change the interval timer to anything else that easier to understand and use?

Or how about just giving us scripting capability in-camera, like some tethering software does.

 

[Andy01]

However, the usual symptom of making this mistake is simply skipped shots. Ask for 10 shots at 10 second shutter speed with interval set to 2 seconds and you will probably get 2, maybe 3 shots because the camera is trying to take a shot every 2 seconds but it is busy with an exposure for 10 seconds so it simply skips a few until it is ready.

Well this is not very intuitive is it?

Intuitive or not, that is the way Canon has chosen to make it work. It has been this way with Canons for many years. Once you understand how it works it is pretty simple - no trickery involved.

If the camera is taking a shot, it should not "try" to take another while exposing, it should not do hidden multiplications like interval time x number of shots to get a total shooting time, and on top of that not even showing that.

Well, the camera (or it's designers) may assume that the photographer has read the manual and knows how to operate it, and lets the user TELL the camera what to do, rather than having the camera assume that the user is incompetent and just over-ride the instruction.

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Period.

Then set it correctly If you chose not to read the manual properly, that is on you, not Canon. It is dead easy to get the 10 shots, you just set it up as per my post above and it will work flawlessly :-D

This is not an external timer, the camera knows what's going on.

It does, but as above, it is programmed to assume that the photographer knows what is going on (as above). I am grateful (most of the time anyway) that my camera doesn't assume that I am an incompetent moron and chose to ignore my settings and do it's own thing - I would like to think that most of the time my settings are at least close to correct.

I have never had it underexpose shots to achieve the required interval & selected number of shots. Maybe this is a new thing on the R5 ? Otherwise I have no idea what this under-exposure issue is as I have never seen it before.

I did not experience such an issue with my test on r6 yesterday, but hey... it took only 2 shots each time I tried

That is because you didn't set it correctly. RTFM and try again :-D

 

[EmotionBlur]

However, the usual symptom of making this mistake is simply skipped shots. Ask for 10 shots at 10 second shutter speed with interval set to 2 seconds and you will probably get 2, maybe 3 shots because the camera is trying to take a shot every 2 seconds but it is busy with an exposure for 10 seconds so it simply skips a few until it is ready.

Well this is not very intuitive is it?

Intuitive or not, that is the way Canon has chosen to make it work. It has been this way with Canons for many years. Once you understand how it works it is pretty simple - no trickery involved.

Of course once you know how it actually works, then it's fine. But the menu is far from intuitive.

If the camera is taking a shot, it should not "try" to take another while exposing, it should not do hidden multiplications like interval time x number of shots to get a total shooting time, and on top of that not even showing that.

Well, the camera (or it's designers) may assume that the photographer has read the manual and knows how to operate it, and lets the user TELL the camera what to do, rather than having the camera assume that the user is incompetent and just over-ride the instruction.

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Period.

Then set it correctly

I did. 10 shots. Then if I have to read the manual to find out that the shots might be skipped because the camera doesn't know jack of what it's doing and lets a timer go on its own pointlessy trying to activating the shutter as if it was an external timer simulator, then it's all good. Very intuitive, because you have to read the manual to understand that the menu is not. Thumbs up.

If you chose not to read the manual properly, that is on you, not Canon. It is dead easy to get the 10 shots, you just set it up as per my post above and it will work flawlessly :-D

This is not an external timer, the camera knows what's going on.

It does, but as above, it is programmed to assume that the photographer knows what is going on (as above). I am grateful (most of the time anyway) that my camera doesn't assume that I am an incompetent moron and chose to ignore my settings and do it's own thing - I would like to think that most of the time my settings are at least close to correct.

I used to use an external timer myself, obviously knowing that it could not know how I set the camera exposure.
Then I put my hands on the R6 intervalometer menu for the first time, I see "number of SHOTS" (not "tentative shutter releases"), I assumed I got that number of shots, because that's exactly what the menu says with no ambiguity whatsoever. Admittedly, the interval time is also written with no ambiguity; so either the interval is measured between... one shot and another (after the shot is TAKEN, not "tried") so all the menu makes sense, and that's what I assumed, otherwise one of the two shows a thing that will be wrong. Which one? You'll find out by yourself or when you read the manual.
This is a system dedicated to the old school timelapse shooters that expect an external timer simulator, not what's written in the menu. Yet I used one of those external timer in the past and I was not expecting the camera to behave like that.

At this point make a menu with only numbers, since canon expects you to read the manual where those numbers have a meaning. If you don't do that, it's on you, not Canon. Once you do that, it's very intuitive. The manual, of course.

It's no big issue for me, now. But I totally object any idea of "intuitiveness". It's obviously not so.

--
Luc

 

[EmotionBlur]

This is a system dedicated to the old school timelapse shooters that expect an external timer simulator, not what's written in the menu.

But I was expecting the camera to behave consistently, not a menu that is like an external timer.

 

[Andy01]

However, the usual symptom of making this mistake is simply skipped shots. Ask for 10 shots at 10 second shutter speed with interval set to 2 seconds and you will probably get 2, maybe 3 shots because the camera is trying to take a shot every 2 seconds but it is busy with an exposure for 10 seconds so it simply skips a few until it is ready.

Well this is not very intuitive is it?

Intuitive or not, that is the way Canon has chosen to make it work. It has been this way with Canons for many years. Once you understand how it works it is pretty simple - no trickery involved.

Of course once you know how it actually works, then it's fine. But the menu is far from intuitive.

If the camera is taking a shot, it should not "try" to take another while exposing, it should not do hidden multiplications like interval time x number of shots to get a total shooting time, and on top of that not even showing that.

Well, the camera (or it's designers) may assume that the photographer has read the manual and knows how to operate it, and lets the user TELL the camera what to do, rather than having the camera assume that the user is incompetent and just over-ride the instruction.

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Period.

Then set it correctly

I did. 10 shots.

No, you didn't. The number of shots is only one part of the interval timer setting. You didn't set the interval length correctly, so the interval timing didn't work as expected.

Then if I have to read the manual to find out that the shots might be skipped because the camera doesn't know jack of what it's doing and lets a timer go on its own pointlessy trying to activating the shutter as if it was an external timer simulator, then it's all good. Very intuitive, because you have to read the manual to understand that the menu is not. Thumbs up.

If you chose not to read the manual properly, that is on you, not Canon. It is dead easy to get the 10 shots, you just set it up as per my post above and it will work flawlessly :-D

This is not an external timer, the camera knows what's going on.

It does, but as above, it is programmed to assume that the photographer knows what is going on (as above). I am grateful (most of the time anyway) that my camera doesn't assume that I am an incompetent moron and chose to ignore my settings and do it's own thing - I would like to think that most of the time my settings are at least close to correct.

I used to use an external timer myself, obviously knowing that it could not know how I set the camera exposure.
Then I put my hands on the R6 intervalometer menu for the first time, I see "number of SHOTS" (not "tentative shutter releases"),

It is not "tentative shots". If you set the timer as per the manual you WILL get what you ask for - PERIOD.

If, however, you choose to ignore the manual, then you be less surprised when you don't get what you ask for.

I assumed I got that number of shots, because that's exactly what the menu says with no ambiguity whatsoever. Admittedly, the interval time is also written with no ambiguity; so either the interval is measured between... one shot and another (after the shot is TAKEN, not "tried") so all the menu makes sense, and that's what I assumed, otherwise one of the two shows a thing that will be wrong. Which one? You'll find out by yourself or when you read the manual.

The camera is a fairly complex little device, which is why it has a pretty extensive manual. I don't see how you can blame Canon because the camera didn't behave as YOU expected when you didn't bother to read the instructions. Like failing a university/college exam and blaming the lecturer because you didn't read the question properly

From my Canon 6D ii manual (I assume that other Canons will be similar);



Seems pretty clear to me - just RTFM ;-)

It doesn't specify how long "extra" to leave between exposures, but I generally go 3-4 seconds longer than the selected shutter speed.

This is a system dedicated to the old school timelapse shooters that expect an external timer simulator, not what's written in the menu. Yet I used one of those external timer in the past and I was not expecting the camera to behave like that.

At this point make a menu with only numbers, since canon expects you to read the manual where those numbers have a meaning. If you don't do that, it's on you, not Canon. Once you do that, it's very intuitive. The manual, of course.

It's no big issue for me, now. But I totally object any idea of "intuitiveness". It's obviously not so.

 

[EmotionBlur]

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Period.

Then set it correctly

I did. 10 shots.

No, you didn't. The number of shots is only one part of the interval timer setting. You didn't set the interval length correctly, so the interval timing didn't work as expected.

Yes, I did. 10 shots. I set 10 shots. I did not set the interval timing correctly, once you know (from the MANUAL, not the MENU, which is the part I claim IT IS NOT intuitive...) that the interval timer ignores the exposure time. But if the menu says plain "Number of shots" and then that number of shots is not respected, and to know why you either have to guess what happens (my case) or read the manual...

the
******** M E N U ***********
IS
NOT
INTUITIVE.
PERIOD.

I used to use an external timer myself, obviously knowing that it could not know how I set the camera exposure.
Then I put my hands on the R6 intervalometer menu for the first time, I see "number of SHOTS" (not "tentative shutter releases"),

It is not "tentative shots". If you set the timer as per the manual you WILL get what you ask for - ****THREE PERIODS.

I asked 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Again, period. A shot is not a shutter release, it's an action that produces a goddamn photo... if you press the shutter and you don't get a photo for whatever reason, you don't call it a "shot". Otherwise I could say I set the camera in single shooting mode, exposure time 30 sec, I press the shutter button once and then I keep pressing the shutter repeatedly while it's still exposing... counting the shots. Ahem.

If, however, you choose to ignore the manual, then you be less surprised when you don't get what you ask for.

I'd like to make a survey here and ask how many users read their camera manual. I would, if there was something not clear in the menu. But the menu says "Interval" and "Number of shots" with no warnings, no conditions, no ambiguity, "crystal clear".
SHOTS.

The camera is a fairly complex little device, which is why it has a pretty extensive manual. I don't see how you can blame Canon because the camera didn't behave as YOU expected when you didn't bother to read the instructions.

Already answered in the comment you're replying to.

From my Canon 6D ii manual (I assume that other Canons will be similar);

I read the same in the R6 manual, to verify that it actually clarifies everything. It does... in the post notes.

Seems pretty clear to me - just RTFM ;-)

The manual, yes. The menu, also. It seems pretty clear ;-)

--
Luc

 

[John Sheehy]

It's no big issue for me, now. But I totally object any idea of "intuitiveness". It's obviously not so.

Especially when there is inconsistency.

Like I said, it would be a simple matter to give multiple intervalometer styles, as options.

 

[John Sheehy]

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots. Period.

Then set it correctly

I did. 10 shots.

No, you didn't. The number of shots is only one part of the interval timer setting. You didn't set the interval length correctly, so the interval timing didn't work as expected.

Yes, I did. 10 shots. I set 10 shots. I did not set the interval timing correctly, once you know (from the MANUAL, not the MENU, which is the part I claim IT IS NOT intuitive...) that the interval timer ignores the exposure time. But if the menu says plain "Number of shots" and then that number of shots is not respected, and to know why you either have to guess what happens (my case) or read the manual...

I agree; reducing the number of shots to those possible within a time window is a rude default behavior; if you asked for ten shots, you should get ten shots, period, even if they go beyond the window of time suggested by the number of shots times the interval.

 

[John Sheehy]

If I set 10 shots, I want 10 shots.

Yes, and if I tell you to go 200 km/h, I don't give you a regular bicycle for the task. Because common sense will tell me that's impossible.

They are doing the only sensible thing, doing the user the favor of expecting them to understand that you can't do ten exposures, each eight seconds long, in 20 seconds.

Reducing the # of frames because of delays is just unnecessary punishment, and it seems more likely to me that someone would set the numbers with the number of frames as a priority; not the suggested time window per se. You can always delete the latter frames if you don't want them; you can't fabricate 3 frames if you asked for 10 but only got 7.

 

[Andy01]

Sorry, I disagree. Setting the intervalometer is a 2 stage process. Step 1 is setting the number of images, and set 2 is setting the interval. It is NOT a simple case of choosing the number of images. If you get the first stage correct, but the second stage wrong (because you misunderstood the methodology / didn't read the instructions), then it has NOT been set correctly.

Plenty of things in this world (I might suggest the majority) are NOT intuitive to every user who uses them - ask any Android / Samsung phone user (especially a user who is used to Apple devices). People's definition of intuitive is different (based on their background, prior experience, what they are used to etc) so it is very difficult to make something that is intuitive to everyone.

Ultimately the designer (Canon in this case) chose a methodology and explained that methodology clearly in the instruction manual. The fact that a user who couldn't bother to read the instructions got it wrong doesn't mean the methodology is wrong - it may well make perfect sense to the Japanese designers - who knows ?

Could Canon (in hindsight) of made it easier/better or more intuitive (as you say) ? Possibly/probably, but then if they changed the methodology with the latest cameras, it would probably confuse the owners who had upgraded from earlier Canons (6D ii, 5D iv etc) who had got used to how it worked on those models.

And for the record, I am one of those weird people who does read the instruction manuals for cameras, cars etc. Boring as hell in general, but there is usually some interesting/invaluable things that I pick up that makes my use of the item easier/better.