David J. Littleboy
Senior Member
What's wrong with handing a camera set at manual mode, 1/30, f/4.0 to someone? They don't have to think, just aim and shoot. AF does the focus, and flash metering does the exposure...
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
George Kontos
Leading Member
The point is that an advanced user often wants to control the aperture used during flash photography. Traditional 35mm film SLRs have had this feature for many years. Why shouldn't a top of the line digital camera also have full aperture control in "A" and "P" mode, with or without flash?
G
Glenn Barber
Guest
This may be our only option - but the EVF is pretty dark (the lcd display almost unusable if there are reflections overhead lights) and we will have to put up with motion blur on this kids because 1/30 is a little slow. A compromise (maybe 3.3 and 60 another better alternative). Certainly I will have to train my wife to shift the camera from auto to Manual for indoor shots.
My point is not that there are not getarounds - its that this is a design flaw in an otherwise great camera - and could be corrected by Sony with software only.
I am looking at fabricating a sports viewfinder that would mount in the cold shoe to make framing with the camera in fluid situations easier.
My point is not that there are not getarounds - its that this is a design flaw in an otherwise great camera - and could be corrected by Sony with software only.
I am looking at fabricating a sports viewfinder that would mount in the cold shoe to make framing with the camera in fluid situations easier.
Hi David,
In some situations this might work, but Canon went through this with the Powershot S10 and it was another nightmare. a 1/30 shutter speed lets in too much ambient light and the color balance becomes all wrong in ambient light. Essentially, the camera always operated in fill-flash mode and the camera's white balance system was often confused by 2 or more different color temperatures of light, most often resulting in a yellowish cast.
I was trying to find the original threads over in the Canon forum for you, but the forum search engine appears to be down now.
steve
In some situations this might work, but Canon went through this with the Powershot S10 and it was another nightmare. a 1/30 shutter speed lets in too much ambient light and the color balance becomes all wrong in ambient light. Essentially, the camera always operated in fill-flash mode and the camera's white balance system was often confused by 2 or more different color temperatures of light, most often resulting in a yellowish cast.
I was trying to find the original threads over in the Canon forum for you, but the forum search engine appears to be down now.
steve
Sorry to reply to my own post, but the forum search engine is still indexing and I've got to run.
I believe Canon solved what was called the "yellow skin tone with flash" problem by providing a firmware update that changed the default forced-flash shutter speed from either 1/15 or 1/30 to 1/60 or 1/125. I can't remember exactly since I no longer own the camera. The faster shutter speed minimized the effect of ambient light and made the flash exposure the dominant source.
Maybe someone else remembers this issue and can shed more light on it.
steve
I believe Canon solved what was called the "yellow skin tone with flash" problem by providing a firmware update that changed the default forced-flash shutter speed from either 1/15 or 1/30 to 1/60 or 1/125. I can't remember exactly since I no longer own the camera. The faster shutter speed minimized the effect of ambient light and made the flash exposure the dominant source.
Maybe someone else remembers this issue and can shed more light on it.
steve
[/I]
David J. Littleboy
Senior Member
The S85 was horrendous that way too, and required using manual mode at 1/125 or so to get even slightly acceptable flash shots. For some reason F707 flash shots aren't bad in auto mode, which uses 1/40 to 1/80 at wide open. Since 1/30 at f/4.0 lets in at least one f-stop less light than what the camera does in auto mode, it's going to be an improvement.
Sony missed the idea of having a "special viewfinder mode" (or whatever you want to call it) that brightens up the viewfinder when the flash is used. We're just going to have to live with it. Sigh.
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan[/I]
I wonder if the TTL flash system is doing some WB adjustment as well?
steve
U
Ulysses
Guest
Yes. It appears to do so.[/I]
Richard C
Leading Member
I'm not yet an owner of an F707, stocks may arrive down under next week, but this thread (and I have read about half the posts) has me wondering whether the problem really is as bad as it is being painted.
I plugged some numbers into Dudak's depth of field calculator http://www.dudak.baka.com.dofcalc.html to see what the depth of field would be in typical shooting situations. With my Nikon F80 I would typically take a flash portrait at 3 metres f=100mm and aperture f5.6, that calculates (circle of confusion = 0.025mm) as focus from 2.879m to 3.132 (0.253m depth). I would get a similar field of view with the F707 at 20mm focal length, at that point the maximum aperture is about f2.2. If I put those figures and a circle of confusion of 0.005mm into my 3m range flash portrait I get focus from 2.771m to 3.27m (0.499m). that's nearly double the depth of field I am used to with my film SLR. In fact I would have to stop down to f11 with the SLR to match the F707's depth of field at f2.2 and I would only use f11 with studio flashes.
For the small group situation, I put in a focal length of 7.1mm, f2.0 and focus distance of 2m for the F707 (COC=0.005mm), giving focus from 1.432m to 3.315m (1.883m depth). The figures for the SLR are f=38mm, a=f8 and d=2m. That gives focus from 1.566m to 2.766m (1.2m depth).
In both cases the F707 at maximum aperture gives more depth of field, at an equivalent field of view, than does a film SLR shooting at typically stopped-down apertures.
Obviously this is only a theoretical argument, but I think it suggests that Sony's opting for maximum aperture in auto mode isn't such a bad idea, I just wonder about vignetting at 7.1mm and f2.0, although flash shots tend to mask vignetting pretty well.
As far as manual exposure mode is concerned, at social events (lowish artificial light) I shoot the F80 at 1/15 sec and f8 (ISO100) in manual exposure mode. In spite of the slow shutter speed anything illuminated by the flash is sharp (1/1000sec flash duration) and the background has enough expusure to look natural, any camera shake or movement of the background is masked by the fact that it's out of focus anyway. Even in manual exposure mode the TTL flash control quenches the flash at correct exposure, sensor auto flashes do as well. I can't tell from the reviews whether the F707 will work the same way, but I can't see why it wouldn't. The 1/15 sec exposure should keep enough brightness in the EVF for composing so the absence of night framing in manual mode wouldn't be a problem. An aperture around f4 will give a heap of DoF, without going into diffraction areas.
With luck, this will not just be a theoretical question for me in a week's time, I'm looking forward to using an F707.
Richard
I plugged some numbers into Dudak's depth of field calculator http://www.dudak.baka.com.dofcalc.html to see what the depth of field would be in typical shooting situations. With my Nikon F80 I would typically take a flash portrait at 3 metres f=100mm and aperture f5.6, that calculates (circle of confusion = 0.025mm) as focus from 2.879m to 3.132 (0.253m depth). I would get a similar field of view with the F707 at 20mm focal length, at that point the maximum aperture is about f2.2. If I put those figures and a circle of confusion of 0.005mm into my 3m range flash portrait I get focus from 2.771m to 3.27m (0.499m). that's nearly double the depth of field I am used to with my film SLR. In fact I would have to stop down to f11 with the SLR to match the F707's depth of field at f2.2 and I would only use f11 with studio flashes.
For the small group situation, I put in a focal length of 7.1mm, f2.0 and focus distance of 2m for the F707 (COC=0.005mm), giving focus from 1.432m to 3.315m (1.883m depth). The figures for the SLR are f=38mm, a=f8 and d=2m. That gives focus from 1.566m to 2.766m (1.2m depth).
In both cases the F707 at maximum aperture gives more depth of field, at an equivalent field of view, than does a film SLR shooting at typically stopped-down apertures.
Obviously this is only a theoretical argument, but I think it suggests that Sony's opting for maximum aperture in auto mode isn't such a bad idea, I just wonder about vignetting at 7.1mm and f2.0, although flash shots tend to mask vignetting pretty well.
As far as manual exposure mode is concerned, at social events (lowish artificial light) I shoot the F80 at 1/15 sec and f8 (ISO100) in manual exposure mode. In spite of the slow shutter speed anything illuminated by the flash is sharp (1/1000sec flash duration) and the background has enough expusure to look natural, any camera shake or movement of the background is masked by the fact that it's out of focus anyway. Even in manual exposure mode the TTL flash control quenches the flash at correct exposure, sensor auto flashes do as well. I can't tell from the reviews whether the F707 will work the same way, but I can't see why it wouldn't. The 1/15 sec exposure should keep enough brightness in the EVF for composing so the absence of night framing in manual mode wouldn't be a problem. An aperture around f4 will give a heap of DoF, without going into diffraction areas.
With luck, this will not just be a theoretical question for me in a week's time, I'm looking forward to using an F707.
Richard
Donniedark
Leading Member
Richard:
It's been discussed in many posts but to reiterate...Use MANUAL mode and forced Flash and you can set whatever aperture and shutter speed you want...granted this becomes "Fill Flash" in the pure sense but it will accomplish the control of DOF thru the "back" door. I find it to be my best workaround.
I think you will love the 707... pluses outweigh minuses by a long shot
Regards Don C...
Sounds like their old PanFocus mode on the S70 and other cameras. It sets the lens to full wide angle, Aperture to F5.8 (as I recall) and focus to infinity. Unfortunately, the flash is good to about 6-7 feet in this mode but it sure is sharp! ;-)
Don,
I'm curious. How do you arrive at the right exposure in manual mode? Aren't you disabling the camera's built-in metering system?
Don,
I'm sorry. I hit enter before I finished my post.
What I meant to ask was:
How do you arrive at the right exposure in this mode? Doesn't manual mode disable the camera's built-in metering system? And does the EVF darken?
Thanks in advance.
steve
I'm sorry. I hit enter before I finished my post.
What I meant to ask was:
How do you arrive at the right exposure in this mode? Doesn't manual mode disable the camera's built-in metering system? And does the EVF darken?
Thanks in advance.
steve
Donniedark
Leading Member
Hi Steve:
Yes..the EVF will darken...no doubt about that. I feel this is the big compromise one must "accept" but if you are confident about the composure of your shot, all will turn out. The exposure may or may not be right but the Fill Flash will be the compensator for this...you may have to try several combinations of Shutter speed and Aperture to get a feel for this. Also you can use LOW/NORMAL/Hi Flash settings in MENU, as well as EXPOSURE Compensation from +2 to-2.
Try playing with different settings and see what works for your Scene
Hope this helps a little
Don C
[/I]
Richard C
Leading Member
Don,
I think you've probably answered my, and Steve's question, but just to confirm, in manual exposure/forced flash mode you still do get flash metering, like my SLR don't you?
Richard
I think you've probably answered my, and Steve's question, but just to confirm, in manual exposure/forced flash mode you still do get flash metering, like my SLR don't you?
Richard
[/I]
G
Glenn Barber
Guest
Fortunately - my problem is just with the camera.
Richard,
Sounds like you don't. The flash duration is regulated by the camera's built-in metering, which is understandably disabled in 'manual' mode.
steve
Sounds like you don't. The flash duration is regulated by the camera's built-in metering, which is understandably disabled in 'manual' mode.
steve
[/I]
U
Ulysses
Guest
At least in the situations that I've been shooting (such as family portraits for friends sitting by a fireplace), the lighting in the room has never been so dim that I couldn't see and frame the shot even at tight apertures.
I like David L's suggestion for a sort of "viewfinder" mode for the LCD/EVF. But in lieu of that at this time, I'm usually making sure that I have adequate lighting to start off with. Even with very low light, it's not an impossible situation. Not ideal, but not completely intolerable either. And as you mentioned, the shots usually do turn out rather well.
Plus you can always half press as much as you need to get a look at your subjects. Neither a perfect nor prefered solution but it works.
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