Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

  • Thread starter Thread starter Glenn Barber
  • Start date Start date
I believe the 707 is effectively always in depth of field preview (to use the SLR terminology). In other words, the aperture doesn't change when the shutter is released. This is both good and bad.

It's good because it gives you a much better idea of what will be and what will not be in focus. You get to see just what the final image will look like. Unlike with an SLR, the camera can compensate to some degree for the smaller aperture and maintain the same brightness in the preview image. Maybe it's using a slower refresh rate to achieve this - I don't know.

It's bad because it makes manual focus difficult when the aperture is stopped down. You have to manually open up the aperture, focus, then stop it down again. It's also bad because the extra light you get with a wide open lens may be needed in order to provide an adequate preview image brightness. In other words, the camera can only compensate for the smaller aperture to some point. Beyond that, it simply can't get enough light quickly enough to produce a usable preview image.

Here's an interesting experiment. Go outside in daylight and set the camera to aperture priority. Get a wide range of distances in view. For example, you might sit down low to the ground. Adjust the aperture and watch the shutter speed change. As you do this, the image will show varying amounts of depth of field. The overall brightness of the preview won't change substantially, despite the fact that less light is hitting the CCD.

Now go inside in the evening and repeat the experiment. This time the image I expect the image to darken substantially as you stop down the lens.

I think what's going on here is that the exposure time for each frame of the animation is adjusted to produce the proper image brightness. When the exposure time gets long, the refresh rate goes down. Eventually, it reaches a threshold beyond which the designers chose not to go (for good reason).
--
Peter Epstein
 
This is so funny because just this afternoon I called Sony to ask about / complain about the inability to set the aperture for flash shots, and the explanation I was given was that the state of the art of digital photography isn't advanced enough at this point in time to allow the user to set various apertures for flash exposures. :-D
"We were pleased to see that the camera (i.e. FD95) and flash (i.e.
F1000)worked together in all exposure modes, with the flash
adjusting its output to match the camera's aperture setting or
light sensitivity quite nicely: In aperture-priority mode, the
flash responded properly to apertures across the full range from
f/2.8 to f/11, while in Twilight Plus mode, the flash handled the
camera's increased light sensitivity exactly right. "

Ulysses wrote:
.....
It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire
approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in
all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the
Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....
 
I was just re-reading the Imaging Resource review of the 707 in anticipation of finally getting my hands on the camera this week-end. The review mentioned that in "landscape" mode, the camera chooses a smaller aperture for increased DOF. Does it also lock the focus into infinity?

If not, has anyone tried using this mode when taking indoor flash pics?

steve (...grasping at straws, now!)
I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.
 
This is so funny because just this afternoon I called Sony to ask
about / complain about the inability to set the aperture for flash
shots, and the explanation I was given was that the state of the
art of digital photography isn't advanced enough at this point in
time to allow the user to set various apertures for flash
exposures. :-D
That's the boys on the front lines for you. You shouldn't have asked for him/her to deviate from the Knowledge Base. :)
 
I too have been bitten by the super-shallow DOF when using the
707's flash....

When I switched to Manual, f4, 1/30th in a dim room, I found that
the auto-focus gets confused.
Hmm. I'm not able to reproduce this problem, but if you look your camera in the eye as it focusses, you'll note that it opens up the aperture and then closes it down again. So I don't see any reason focus behavior should be different...
If you half-push the shutter release and > then
to Manual-Focus, you'll see a display of the current focal distance.

At f2 (the 707's default in a dim room on Auto), the Auto-Focus
seems fairly consistent in setting its focal distance.

However, at f4 the focal distance varies wildly from one shot to
the next. Try it--just try a few repetitions of half-pressing the
shutter release and then going from Auto- to Manual-focus. You'll
see the "computed distance" of a textured wall can vary from 2 to
6m (!).

My guess is that the auto-focus system needs the higher
light-levels and narrower DOF of a wide-open aperture in order to
focus properly.
In very bright light, the AF doesn't open up the iris, but it does in dim lighting...

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
I haven't got a 707 yet, so I have a question. Could someone kindly answer?

Is the issue that you Can not use AP (combined with flash)? The only way to set the aperture+ flash is go manual?

Thanks,
MD
I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.
That's because all Sony cameras have the same behavior.

It's not called a "flaw". It's called an "approach". ;-)

... One that probably we'd like to change.
 
I haven't got a 707 yet, so I have a question. Could someone
kindly answer?
Is the issue that you Can not use AP (combined with flash)? The
only way to set the aperture+ flash is go manual?

Thanks,
MD
Ulysses wrote:
MD:
The issue with Aperture Mode and Flash is basically this:

In Aperture mode if you want to use Flash it must be by way of selecting Forced Flash vs the only other option No Flash (default). What this becomes is FILL FLASH and the problem is you will get normal metering by the 707 as if it was calculating for normal exposure with no flash( as in a daylight outdoor shot) where your priority was Depth of field ...the Shutter speed being computed by the camera. This is, of course is the norm for Aperture priority.

Where the problem comes in is when Flash is desired you most often get unacceptably LOW calculated Shutter speeds which result in blurred pictures...tripod would be needed for sure on indoor shots.

On the other hand, if you select MANUAL mode you trick the Fill Flash by setting both Shutter speed and Aperture so you at least have that control element on your side...not by the 707 calculating Shutter speed for you.
You also can provide for and fine tune your settings by modifying:

ISO setting in the Menu (Auto-100-200-400)...Flash Level in the Menu (Low-Normal-High)...and Exposure Adjustmenton the camera (Button that chooses from-2 to+2 adjustment...call them fine tuning options.

In either Aperture or Manual priority setting, the LCD or the viewfinder will darken depending on the ambient light during composure of the shot. Remember the 707s brain does not expect you to want the flash as a complication to its sophisticated calculations...this darkened "screen" takes some "practice" getting used to...especially if you come from the 35mm SLR fraternity where you can have wide-open metering and Depth of Field preview as your defaults.i.e. the finder is always bright for composing and only shuts down when you press the button.
Sorry to be long in the tooth but hope this puts this issue in "focus"
Regards
Don C
I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.
That's because all Sony cameras have the same behavior.

It's not called a "flaw". It's called an "approach". ;-)

... One that probably we'd like to change.
 
Don,

Thank you very much for the explanation. I am learning this stuff and will cut, paste, and save your write-up for future reference.

MD.
I haven't got a 707 yet, so I have a question. Could someone
kindly answer?
Is the issue that you Can not use AP (combined with flash)? The
only way to set the aperture+ flash is go manual?

Thanks,
MD
Ulysses wrote:
MD:
The issue with Aperture Mode and Flash is basically this:
In Aperture mode if you want to use Flash it must be by way of
selecting Forced Flash vs the only other option No Flash (default).
What this becomes is FILL FLASH and the problem is you will get
normal metering by the 707 as if it was calculating for normal
exposure with no flash( as in a daylight outdoor shot) where your
priority was Depth of field ...the Shutter speed being computed by
the camera. This is, of course is the norm for Aperture priority.
Where the problem comes in is when Flash is desired you most often
get unacceptably LOW calculated Shutter speeds which result in
blurred pictures...tripod would be needed for sure on indoor shots.
On the other hand, if you select MANUAL mode you trick the Fill
Flash by setting both Shutter speed and Aperture so you at least
have that control element on your side...not by the 707 calculating
Shutter speed for you.
You also can provide for and fine tune your settings by modifying:
ISO setting in the Menu (Auto-100-200-400)...Flash Level in the
Menu (Low-Normal-High)...and Exposure Adjustmenton the camera
(Button that chooses from-2 to+2 adjustment...call them fine tuning
options.
In either Aperture or Manual priority setting, the LCD or the
viewfinder will darken depending on the ambient light during
composure of the shot. Remember the 707s brain does not expect you
to want the flash as a complication to its sophisticated
calculations...this darkened "screen" takes some "practice" getting
used to...especially if you come from the 35mm SLR fraternity where
you can have wide-open metering and Depth of Field preview as your
defaults.i.e. the finder is always bright for composing and only
shuts down when you press the button.
Sorry to be long in the tooth but hope this puts this issue in "focus"
Regards
Don C
I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.
That's because all Sony cameras have the same behavior.

It's not called a "flaw". It's called an "approach". ;-)

... One that probably we'd like to change.
 
In a nutshell, when using the program modes, the camera forces you to use the lens' maximum aperture for all flash shots. (f/2 or so depending on the current focal length) The user cannot change the aperture, unless you go to M mode, but then the display becomes too dark to be of much use.
Thanks,
MD
I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.
That's because all Sony cameras have the same behavior.

It's not called a "flaw". It's called an "approach". ;-)

... One that probably we'd like to change.
 

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