Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

[Zarathu]

Odd......You'd think that the auto mode int he S75 and S85 doing that would do it in the CD300

which is identical mostly with the S-75, except with the addition of the CD/RW drive.

However, I just checked and in full auto, with forced flash, the aperture varies quite widely with the
amount of light coming in.

Hmmmm.....

eric

I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.

 

[Glenn Barber]

I think that if you increase the format size, you have to increase the lens size, aperature, and focal length to get the same perspective i.e. an equivalent optic. We need to calculate the net change in depth of field from an equivalent lens with a different format but the same fstop. I think we need to think about this a bit more - but my brain hurts at this late hour.

If the calculator at http://www.garageglamour.com/tips/depth.shtml
is correct, DOF appears to increase along with film size when focal
length and aperture stay the same.

If this is true, the .66" Sony 5MP CCD should have more inhereht
DOF than the .55" 505v CCD, e.g. Since the 505v's max aperture is
2.8, however, it's harded to directly compare the two cameras.

Sony CCD sizes can be found at:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0103/01031801sony4megapixelccd.asp

steve

If this is the case the 707 (having a much larger format than the
505V or S85) would have a much narrower DOF even at the same
aperatures.

Somebody smarter please correct me if I am wrong.

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have
found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75,
and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding
quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an
on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are
taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of
people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits,
you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for
whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people
shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as
they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing
it harder.

That is for sure.

It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still
have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder
mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket
science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we
are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at
sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is
quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot
slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a
bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away,
prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead
of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken
the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[/I]

 

[maur]

that's truly a big problem!
i'll can't use seriously this camera for macro.
think i'll don't buy it.
sigh!

 

[tam_dominic]

Shoot at 38mm or 70mm instead of 190mm would give you much more DOF you want even at F2.

dominic

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[/steve]

Glenn,

Good point. The 505v's lens is 7.1-35.5mm. The 707's is 9.7-48.5mm, an increase in focal length of about 40%.

Don't know if this early morning logic is valid, but the physical imager size only increased by about 20%, so the lens on the 707 is proportionally "longer". Since DOF decreases as focal length increases, I would think the 707 has proportionally less DOF.

And of course the wider maximum aperture doesn't help either.

steve

If the calculator at http://www.garageglamour.com/tips/depth.shtml
is correct, DOF appears to increase along with film size when focal
length and aperture stay the same.

If this is true, the .66" Sony 5MP CCD should have more inhereht
DOF than the .55" 505v CCD, e.g. Since the 505v's max aperture is
2.8, however, it's harded to directly compare the two cameras.

Sony CCD sizes can be found at:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0103/01031801sony4megapixelccd.asp

steve

If this is the case the 707 (having a much larger format than the
505V or S85) would have a much narrower DOF even at the same
aperatures.

Somebody smarter please correct me if I am wrong.

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have
found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75,
and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding
quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an
on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are
taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of
people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits,
you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for
whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people
shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as
they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing
it harder.

That is for sure.

It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still
have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder
mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket
science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we
are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at
sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is
quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot
slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a
bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away,
prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead
of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken
the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[/I]

 

[Jay Jervey]

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the "problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of them to even provide manual control so that we can work around these problems is beyond comprehension!!

 

[Glenn Barber]

Dear Jay

This problem is not quite so noticeable for cameras using a smaller format (ccd size). As actual aperature size goes up the DOF effects at any given Fstop ratio seem to go up. At 2.0 the 707 has a very small depth of field and lots of family and group flash shots are ruined. This really reduces the general value of the camera.

Lots of other much less expensive cameras don't have this problem.

I gather from your tone - that you think we should be happy to spend 1000 bucks for a camera that cant do a go job of a simple flash photo in auto mode. Manual Mode (without viewfinder support) is a lame getaround not an excuse for bad programming.

This problem could be corrected with a simple firmware fix.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the
"problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every
Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the
bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect
this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a
manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade
for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the
audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our
every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of
them to even provide manual control so that we can work around
these problems is beyond comprehension!!

 

[Jay Jervey]

Glenn --

Your theoretical evaluation is fine. But I don't see it as a problem with my own day-to-day usage. In fact, I am conistently impressed with the focus and sharpness at any Fstop. The camera works fine for me and about 99.9% of the rest of the folks here. So let's please get off the soapbox and stop the rant.

This problem is not quite so noticeable for cameras using a smaller
format (ccd size). As actual aperature size goes up the DOF
effects at any given Fstop ratio seem to go up. At 2.0 the 707 has
a very small depth of field and lots of family and group flash
shots are ruined. This really reduces the general value of the
camera.

Lots of other much less expensive cameras don't have this problem.

I gather from your tone - that you think we should be happy to
spend 1000 bucks for a camera that cant do a go job of a simple
flash photo in auto mode. Manual Mode (without viewfinder support)
is a lame getaround not an excuse for bad programming.

This problem could be corrected with a simple firmware fix.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the
"problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every
Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the
bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect
this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a
manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade
for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the
audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our
every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of
them to even provide manual control so that we can work around
these problems is beyond comprehension!!

 

[Glenn Barber]

Dear Jay

I have received a number of emails for others who like myself, have been unhappy with the results of flash - as well as the EVF darkening when forced flash is selected in manual. I think your evaluation that 99.9% of 707 users find the quality of flash group shots fine when taken at aperature 2.0 is inaccurate.

Thank you for your response - it keeps this post on the top of the list.

Your theoretical evaluation is fine. But I don't see it as a
problem with my own day-to-day usage. In fact, I am conistently
impressed with the focus and sharpness at any Fstop. The camera
works fine for me and about 99.9% of the rest of the folks here. So
let's please get off the soapbox and stop the rant.

This problem is not quite so noticeable for cameras using a smaller
format (ccd size). As actual aperature size goes up the DOF
effects at any given Fstop ratio seem to go up. At 2.0 the 707 has
a very small depth of field and lots of family and group flash
shots are ruined. This really reduces the general value of the
camera.

Lots of other much less expensive cameras don't have this problem.

I gather from your tone - that you think we should be happy to
spend 1000 bucks for a camera that cant do a go job of a simple
flash photo in auto mode. Manual Mode (without viewfinder support)
is a lame getaround not an excuse for bad programming.

This problem could be corrected with a simple firmware fix.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the
"problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every
Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the
bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect
this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a
manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade
for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the
audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our
every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of
them to even provide manual control so that we can work around
these problems is beyond comprehension!!

 

[tko]

Wide open is a natural choice - probably the best because:

1. maximum light gathering = maximum flash range (tiny flashes need this).
2. smaller depth of field = best for portraits
3. DOF for digicams is wider than SLR"s anyway.

Sure, there are some times when you want a smaller aparture, but my viewpoint is that the built in flash is just a toy anyhow, and not suitable for serious pictures - just snapshoots. You want to do serious flash work, you need slaves, bounce, etc. Then you can start to worry about DOF.

Personally, I'd never take a serious picture using the built in flash on any camera.

Now, for fill flash the built in is OK, but I don't think fill flash sets the aperture.

At any rate, it's a design trade off, not a design flaw, so save the campaigning for something important.

 

[Glenn Barber]

I am somewhat surprised how few people in this forum seem to use the camera for day to day business and family events as I do. Perhaps its the nature of this forum to focus on artistic photography.

I think the bulk of the public who would consider this camera would want to know about its limitations for everyday family use.

For me - the most important feature of the camera is to take family, and business group pictures - most of these indoors.

Wide open is a natural choice - probably the best because:

1. maximum light gathering = maximum flash range (tiny flashes need
this).
2. smaller depth of field = best for portraits
3. DOF for digicams is wider than SLR"s anyway.

Sure, there are some times when you want a smaller aparture, but my
viewpoint is that the built in flash is just a toy anyhow, and not
suitable for serious pictures - just snapshoots. You want to do
serious flash work, you need slaves, bounce, etc. Then you can
start to worry about DOF.

Personally, I'd never take a serious picture using the built in
flash on any camera.

Now, for fill flash the built in is OK, but I don't think fill
flash sets the aperture.

At any rate, it's a design trade off, not a design flaw, so save
the campaigning for something important.

 

[/steve]

Folks,

As far as I can tell, this problem was first reported on this forum over two weeks ago with this post by David:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&page=1&message=1704872

He was kind enough to resend the link to the original picture that caused some concern:

http://www.pbase.com/image/576112/large

This looks to me to be the kind of scene anyone who snaps candids with flash will encounter often. David's son doesn't look like he's more than a foot or so in front of that pumpkin.

I'm sorry, but I don't think this is fitting performance for this otherwise excellent camera. And setting the 707 to aperture priority mode and stopping down the lens to the point where the EVF darkens and the shutter speed slows and allows ambient light to affect the white balance doesn't seem quite right for such a sophisticated piece of gear. I'm squarely in Glenn's corner on this one.

Sony couldn't easily correct this with a "default aperture for flash" menu preference that keeps the EVF bright until the moment of exposure. Sure the resulting increase in flash output will shorten battery life, but the 707's so far ahead of the competition in that department, it would be no big deal to me if I got 3 hours instead of 4 on a charge. They could leave the default setting at f/2 for the folks that don't have a problem with DOF... this would be a transparent fix for them.

It's really a shame Sony doesn't allow firmware upgrading. If this camera was a piece of software, it would be so easy to publish a ".1" revision patch that offered the new menu preference I'm looking for. Instead, Sony has to fix the cameras by hand at great expense, which is why we'll probably never see this useful feature implemented. Sigh.

steve

I have received a number of emails for others who like myself, have
been unhappy with the results of flash - as well as the EVF
darkening when forced flash is selected in manual. I think your
evaluation that 99.9% of 707 users find the quality of flash group
shots fine when taken at aperature 2.0 is inaccurate.

Thank you for your response - it keeps this post on the top of the
list.

Your theoretical evaluation is fine. But I don't see it as a
problem with my own day-to-day usage. In fact, I am conistently
impressed with the focus and sharpness at any Fstop. The camera
works fine for me and about 99.9% of the rest of the folks here. So
let's please get off the soapbox and stop the rant.

This problem is not quite so noticeable for cameras using a smaller
format (ccd size). As actual aperature size goes up the DOF
effects at any given Fstop ratio seem to go up. At 2.0 the 707 has
a very small depth of field and lots of family and group flash
shots are ruined. This really reduces the general value of the
camera.

Lots of other much less expensive cameras don't have this problem.

I gather from your tone - that you think we should be happy to
spend 1000 bucks for a camera that cant do a go job of a simple
flash photo in auto mode. Manual Mode (without viewfinder support)
is a lame getaround not an excuse for bad programming.

This problem could be corrected with a simple firmware fix.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the
"problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every
Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the
bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect
this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a
manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade
for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the
audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our
every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of
them to even provide manual control so that we can work around
these problems is beyond comprehension!!

 

[Ulysses]

Perhaps its the nature of this forum to focus on artistic
photography.

For me - the most important feature of the camera is to take
family, and business group pictures - most of these indoors.

This raises a very interesting question. I think I'm going to start a new thread!

 

[David J. Littleboy]

For me - the most important feature of the camera is to take
family, and business group pictures - most of these indoors.

So what's wrong with manual mode, 1/30, f/4.0 (maybe f/2.8, maybe ISO 200)?

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[Glenn Barber]

Thanks a lot Steve

I think that about says it perfectly.

I notice that there are a few individuals in the Sony forum who seem to have no interest in or contribution to various threads other than to jump in and ridicule others for describing a problem. Tracing their threads, some of them seem to make a habit of it.

I appreciate your response and wish others could contribute as well.

Glenn

As far as I can tell, this problem was first reported on this forum
over two weeks ago with this post by David:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&page=1&message=1704872

He was kind enough to resend the link to the original picture that
caused some concern:

http://www.pbase.com/image/576112/large

This looks to me to be the kind of scene anyone who snaps candids
with flash will encounter often. David's son doesn't look like he's
more than a foot or so in front of that pumpkin.

I'm sorry, but I don't think this is fitting performance for this
otherwise excellent camera. And setting the 707 to aperture
priority mode and stopping down the lens to the point where the EVF
darkens and the shutter speed slows and allows ambient light to
affect the white balance doesn't seem quite right for such a
sophisticated piece of gear. I'm squarely in Glenn's corner on this
one.

Sony couldn't easily correct this with a "default aperture for
flash" menu preference that keeps the EVF bright until the moment
of exposure. Sure the resulting increase in flash output will
shorten battery life, but the 707's so far ahead of the competition
in that department, it would be no big deal to me if I got 3 hours
instead of 4 on a charge. They could leave the default setting at
f/2 for the folks that don't have a problem with DOF... this would
be a transparent fix for them.

It's really a shame Sony doesn't allow firmware upgrading. If this
camera was a piece of software, it would be so easy to publish a
".1" revision patch that offered the new menu preference I'm
looking for. Instead, Sony has to fix the cameras by hand at great
expense, which is why we'll probably never see this useful feature
implemented. Sigh.

steve

I have received a number of emails for others who like myself, have
been unhappy with the results of flash - as well as the EVF
darkening when forced flash is selected in manual. I think your
evaluation that 99.9% of 707 users find the quality of flash group
shots fine when taken at aperature 2.0 is inaccurate.

Thank you for your response - it keeps this post on the top of the
list.

Your theoretical evaluation is fine. But I don't see it as a
problem with my own day-to-day usage. In fact, I am conistently
impressed with the focus and sharpness at any Fstop. The camera
works fine for me and about 99.9% of the rest of the folks here. So
let's please get off the soapbox and stop the rant.

This problem is not quite so noticeable for cameras using a smaller
format (ccd size). As actual aperature size goes up the DOF
effects at any given Fstop ratio seem to go up. At 2.0 the 707 has
a very small depth of field and lots of family and group flash
shots are ruined. This really reduces the general value of the
camera.

Lots of other much less expensive cameras don't have this problem.

I gather from your tone - that you think we should be happy to
spend 1000 bucks for a camera that cant do a go job of a simple
flash photo in auto mode. Manual Mode (without viewfinder support)
is a lame getaround not an excuse for bad programming.

This problem could be corrected with a simple firmware fix.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
.....
Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

Did you also mention to Sony that you would like them to fix the
"problem" with the S70, S75, S85, etc. etc., in other words, every
Cybershot they make? I'm sure Phil would be willing to jump on the
bandwagon and maybe even go back and update his reviews to reflect
this horrendous oversight!! In fact, let's just call it a
manufacturing flaw and demand an immediate free firmware upgrade
for every Cybershot ever produced. After all, they have the
audacity to dare sell a camera that doesn't automatically meet our
every need in every shooting environment. I mean, the tumerity of
them to even provide manual control so that we can work around
these problems is beyond comprehension!!

[/I]

 

[Glenn Barber]

Thats why I am never in any of the family pictures.

For me - the most important feature of the camera is to take
family, and business group pictures - most of these indoors.

So what's wrong with manual mode, 1/30, f/4.0 (maybe f/2.8, maybe
ISO 200)?

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[Jay Jervey]

And there are those who have a habit of making a mountain out of a mole hill too. Your major rant is that Sony should have provided a default flash DOF menu entry. Does any other camera manufacturer do this? Why would you expect Sony to ex post facto provide this? Just because you want it? You're holding on to this trivial little idea as if an apple just dropped on your head. The F707 DOF is what it is. If you can't deal with it, Ebay is just a click away.

 

[George Kontos]

Unfortunately, when using the Sony external flash the camera behaves the same as with the internal flash, setting the maximum aperture. :-(

George

Personally, I'd never take a serious picture using the built in
flash on any camera.

 

[Jay Jervey]

Unfortunately, when using the Sony external flash the camera
behaves the same as with the internal flash, setting the maximum
aperture. :-(

I wonder what we would be saying if Sony decided to default the flash to F4, shutter speed 1/10 s, and usable flash distance of 6 ft.? Maybe it would go something like this:

"Wow! Great DOF with that flash. Too bad camera shake ruins every shot and I can't see the other side of the room....but, hey, we have great DOF!!"

 

[George Kontos]

My problem shots tend to be my "couch shots". I'll take a picture
(flash or not) at a long zoom range of someone hanging out on the
couch and I may get them in focus or it may get the couch in focus.

Portraits where the background is not so close as it is in a "couch
shot" hardly ever have this problem.

I've experience the exact same "couch shot problem" that Ted describes. When using a long focal length and large aperture, the sofa fabric just behind the subject's head is in focus, but the face is not. In fact, Phil reported this problem in the DP Review of the F707. His explanation was that when the Hologram AF is turned on, the pattern of red lines often spills out onto the background, and the camera mistakenly focuses on the background rather than the subject in the foreground.

When focusing the F707 in manual mode, if the option "Expanded Focus" is selected, the LCD image is enlarged to help the user focus more easily. This is a handy feature and is comfirmed by both my own experience and by the F707 User Manual.

However, in the DPReview article on the F707, they say the function of the Expanded Focus option is something entirely different.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf707/page10.asp

They say that when"Expanded Focus" is set to ON, the camera uses a wider area to pick the closest focus subject, and when set to OFF the camera uses the center of the frame for focusing.

The reason I'm concerned about this is because if the DPReview comment is correct, that would explain the occasional focus error I've observed when shooting under certain (couch shot) situations. When composing a shot of my son sitting on a sofa in dim room lighting, I set the subject's head fully within the center focusing reticule, yet the resultant image shows focus not on the face, but on the sofa fabric behind his head. A wider focus area might explain this.

But is DP Review's definition of the Expanded Focus function correct?

George