Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

[TurboTed]

My problem shots tend to be my "couch shots". I'll take a picture (flash or not) at a long zoom range of someone hanging out on the couch and I may get them in focus or it may get the couch in focus.

Portraits where the background is not so close as it is in a "couch shot" hardly ever have this problem.

I think this is where you have to take the good with the bad, and I really, really like the good.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[cyberslave]

I believe they did it to conserve battery power. The wider the lens
opening, the less flash output required.

If this indeed were true, wouldn't it make sense to then disable this wide aperture when using the HVL-F1000 (which has its own battery source)? Are smaller apertures in automatic mode possible with the HVL-F1000?

cyberslave[/I]

 

[Mark62091]

The only way around it with the F1000 is to use manual mode on the camera and put black tape over the F1000 sensor so it fires full power each time. If you use the F1000 in manual mode and close down the aperature, the F1000 sensor still thinks you are using max aperature and does not fire accordingly.

I believe they did it to conserve battery power. The wider the lens
opening, the less flash output required.

If this indeed were true, wouldn't it make sense to then disable
this wide aperture when using the HVL-F1000 (which has its own
battery source)? Are smaller apertures in automatic mode possible
with the HVL-F1000?

cyberslave

[/I]

 

[Ulysses]

I don't know if this behavior has existed in all Cybershots. Can
you do a quick test on your F505v and see what the default aperture
is on flash shots? I don't believe the original 505 opened it up
all the way.

The F505V defaults to its F2.8

For example, in my typical 75w halogen bulb shot about 18" above the desk surface, here is what you'd see when in AP mode:

 

[Ulysses]

In my another others opinion - this is a much more serious
deficiency than the BFS problems - where you could at least correct
the color afterwards.

I agree with you in principle in that this ought to be addressed.

Knowing Sony, however, it's not going to be addressed in this camera. The best we are likely to expect on this one is that it will be handled in another future product.

The reason?

That this is a designed configuration. Poor design or purposed design, they designed it this way.

Whereas BFS qualifies as a true bug, a glitch, something that was not designed to behave this way. That makes it more serious. No matter who you are, you don't want blue pitchas.

This with the aperture, we can work around... for now. But I want to see it addressed in the next products and would definitely support changing it.

I'd like to see an even smarter flash and exposure system, too.

As David said, we are certainly pushing this camera VERY hard, probably harder than we've ever demanded of a Cyber-shot. This is both a good thing and at the same time intriguing. Cyber-shots were NEVER considered "serious" cameras, with the possible exception of the D700/D7770.

 

[/steve]

The S70 defaults to F2.0 for forced flash (and auto flash shots)

It is interesting that it will close the aperture when taking close
up pictures of objects, presumably to help keep the flash under
control.

You're probably right about taming the flash, but the beneficial side-effect is increased DOF in a situation where you more often than not could use it, since DOF decreases as you get closer to your subject.

It also decreases as focal length increases, so if you're zoomed in the 3x-5x range, you're going to see shallower DOF with the 707 than you were used to with the 3x max zoom of the S-70.

I'm wondering if it's not just battery conservation that Sony is after, but also maximum brightness and viewability for the EVF. Does anyone know if the Dimage or any other cams with EVF's have the same problem?

steve

 

[Bryan Biggers]

As far as I know, almost all digital cameras do this (use wide aperture for the flash). They do this for two main reasons. 1) The on board flashes are wussy, and they want to maximize the range. 2) They use the CCD for focus and preview, and they need the most light possible. In general, most cameras have smaller max apertures at larger zooms, and the DOF is largest at wide, so this isn't usually a problem; most cameras are down to F4 or something at middle zoom.

Since you ask about the Dimage, it does the same thing, but the effects aren't quite as bad because the lens isn't quite as big. At full zoom, where the DOF is minimal, the lens is F3.5 so you get more DOF than in the Sony.

The "problem", if you want to call it that, with the Sony is that it has a big lens, and when open the DOF isn't all that great. Sorry, that is one of the trade offs for having a fast lens. Sony could have stopped the lens down a little, for flash, but with so many people paying close attention to the specs on cameras, stopping down for flash would have reduced the flash range and would have reduced the low light focus ablity, and it is going to be hard to explain to people why you might want to do that; they are only looking at the specifications.

Can't you run the camera in aperture priority or something?

Bryan

The S70 defaults to F2.0 for forced flash (and auto flash shots)

It is interesting that it will close the aperture when taking close
up pictures of objects, presumably to help keep the flash under
control.

You're probably right about taming the flash, but the beneficial
side-effect is increased DOF in a situation where you more often
than not could use it, since DOF decreases as you get closer to
your subject.

It also decreases as focal length increases, so if you're zoomed in
the 3x-5x range, you're going to see shallower DOF with the 707
than you were used to with the 3x max zoom of the S-70.

I'm wondering if it's not just battery conservation that Sony is
after, but also maximum brightness and viewability for the EVF.
Does anyone know if the Dimage or any other cams with EVF's have
the same problem?

steve

[/I]

 

[David J. Littleboy]

Can't you run the camera in aperture priority or something?

Aperture mode sets the shutter speed too slow (as it should). Manual mode almost works, but the EVF becomes unusable (too dark). Sigh.

What happens on the D7 in manual mode, 1/125 f/4.0, in a normally lit room? Is the EVF bright enough to use?

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[Bryan Biggers]

Can't you run the camera in aperture priority or something?

Aperture mode sets the shutter speed too slow (as it should).
Manual mode almost works, but the EVF becomes unusable (too dark).
Sigh.

What happens on the D7 in manual mode, 1/125 f/4.0, in a normally
lit room? Is the EVF bright enough to use?

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

Hi David,

Well, you wouldn't be able to see it the D7 EVF anyway, wink wink If you pop the internal flash up in a dim room at 1/125 F4, the viewfinder brightens so that you can see it under conditions where it would be too dark to see if you didn't put the flash up. This is the way that it works on the Nikon cameras too. However, if you are using an external flash, with the D7 then the D7 has exactly the same problem that the 707 does in manual mode; because you can't pop the flash up the viewfinder is too dark to use.
Bryan

 

[/steve]

[...] If you pop the internal flash up in a dim room at 1/125 F4, the
viewfinder brightens so that you can see it under conditions where
it would be too dark to see if you didn't put the flash up.

Sounds like a reasonable solution to this dillema. It's unfortunate for us Sony's engineers didn't think of this as well.

steve

 

[Ulysses]

[...] If you pop the internal flash up in a dim room at 1/125 F4, the
viewfinder brightens so that you can see it under conditions where
it would be too dark to see if you didn't put the flash up.

Sounds like a reasonable solution to this dillema. It's unfortunate
for us Sony's engineers didn't think of this as well.

And yet it's interesting to see that each camera has its own brand of inconsistencies (like Bryan mentioned). A lot has to do with how we handle what we've got and whether we can think around our camera's limitations.[/I]

 

[Bryan Biggers]

And yet it's interesting to see that each camera has its own brand
of inconsistencies (like Bryan mentioned). A lot has to do with how
we handle what we've got and whether we can think around our
camera's limitations.

Yup, no perfect camera yet. You just have to decide what bits you like, and what you can live with, get one, and stop listening to those that think that you should have gotten somethign else. Every camera out there has some issue that is going to bother you at some time. Some things, like camera size, are never going to be "perfect"; depends on what you do with it. Bryan

 

[Ulysses]

Yup, no perfect camera yet. You just have to decide what bits you
like, and what you can live with, get one, and stop listening to
those that think that you should have gotten somethign else. Every
camera out there has some issue that is going to bother you at some
time. Some things, like camera size, are never going to be
"perfect"; depends on what you do with it. Bryan

It's kind of like some of the things that have been dogging us with the F707:

Oh no! My pitchas are blue! Don't like that.
What!?? I can't see my LCD.
Hey! Why won't this work in Manual mode??

Yeah, there are a lot of little "things" that we each have that poses a challenge. But there are almost always methods of dealing with those things with any given camera.

Nowadays, the camera matters less and less than being able to work along with what a camera presents before you.

 

[/steve]

I believe in calling a spade a spade and not being a Sony apologist like some on here. I have spent enough money on Sony gear across every consumer electronic category to feel free to stand on this soapbox.

It would be one thing if the technology was not advanced enough to provide a feature cost effectively, but that's not the case at all here. This DOF issue is becoming a hot topic because apparently no one at Sony did their homework by getting this camera into some experienced photographers' hands ahead of time. What a great camera this could have been for weddings (or other occasions) where the limited depth of field is going to prevent group shots like the standard 'table' shot from being as sharp as it could. You know, the shot where the folks seated in front of a round table get up and stand behind the people sitting at the back of the table, who are a couple of feet behind the folks seated closer to the camera on the sides of the table. Guess what, either the folks at the back or the sides will be tack sharp, but not both.

Not being able to stop down the lens when using flash without dimming the EVF and/or locking in to a "flash-friendly" shutter speed (somewhere in the 1/30-1/125 range) is a severe limitation in a camera that purports to be "top of the line". Sony has been making non film-based cameras since the mid-80's and should know a bit more about photography by now than they apparently do, especially with their affiliation with Carl Zeiss.

How hard would it have been for Sony to include a menu option where the user could have set her preferred "flash aperture", with a warning in the manual about reduced battery life or flash range if the factory default "wide open" was changed? If only Sony had asked us what we wanted, instead of deciding that it was more important to have better battery life specs than the competition.

Unfortunately, this is what happens when engineers design cameras for other engineers and marketing folks instead of the consumers.

steve

[...] If you pop the internal flash up in a dim room at 1/125 F4, the
viewfinder brightens so that you can see it under conditions where
it would be too dark to see if you didn't put the flash up.

Sounds like a reasonable solution to this dillema. It's unfortunate
for us Sony's engineers didn't think of this as well.

And yet it's interesting to see that each camera has its own brand
of inconsistencies (like Bryan mentioned). A lot has to do with how
we handle what we've got and whether we can think around our
camera's limitations.

[/I]

 

[David J. Littleboy]

Unfortunately, this is what happens when engineers design cameras
for other engineers and marketing folks instead of the consumers.

Uh, I was basically agreeing with you up to here, but I think that Sony's problem is that they design their cameras for consumers and not advanced amateurs, pro wanabes, and pros. They went to heroic lengths for people who want to take flash shots in auto mode in extremely dark places (nightframing), but didn't come up with anything for people who wanted manual control over their flash shots in normal situations.

Similarly, my complaint with manual focus: any (older) 35mm SLR photographer realizes that you have to open up the aperture to focus manually, but the F707 doesn't. (The manual focus switch could automaticall switch to a mode that frames with the aperture wider and then stops down to shoot.)

It's interesting that the D7 gets a lot closer than the Sony to getting manual flash right, and that it's quite simple and easy to implement. (Of course, I'd rather have manual control over bright viewfinder mode, but as a first approximation the D7 is fine.)

Still, since there is a workaround (manual mode, ISO 200, 1/30 at f/4.0, and half depressing the shutter a lot) and there's nothing out there that comes close to the F707 now, the bottom line is that Ulysses is right: we should be shutting up and taking pictures. (Like Frank Zappa said: Shut up and play your guitar.)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan[/I]

 

[/steve]

It's interesting that the D7 gets a lot closer than the Sony to
getting manual flash right, and that it's quite simple and easy to
implement. (Of course, I'd rather have manual control over bright
viewfinder mode, but as a first approximation the D7 is fine.)

Not suprising to me, David. Minolta is first and foremost a camera company and knows what photographers might want to do with a camera.

Still, since there is a workaround (manual mode, ISO 200, 1/30 at
f/4.0, and half depressing the shutter a lot) and there's nothing
out there that comes close to the F707 now, the bottom line is that
Ulysses is right: we should be shutting up and taking pictures.
(Like Frank Zappa said: Shut up and play your guitar.)

Even if this wasn't a cumbersome work-around, I realize now that 1/30 is going to let in a lot of ambient light which will mess with color balance. Canon learned that lesson well with the Powershots. And what if you wanted to shoot with flash at F8?

Don't get me wrong, the 707 is my camera of choice. I know it's ahead of the competition from a price/performance standpoint... most of us can't afford Nikon D1X's or EOS D30's. It's just frustrating that Sony didn't implement a very useful feature (flash aperture selection) when it so easily could have done so within the constraints of existing technology.

And yes, we should all enjoy our camera, warts and all. But we shouldn't coddle or apologize for the manufacturers who we give our hard-earned dollars to. I don't agree with you that this camera was targeted at the average consumer. I believe it is their "pro-sumer" offering, as is evidenced by their press release announcing the camera last August:

"SAN DIEGO, Aug. 21, 2001 - Now all digital photographers can achieve professional results with the introduction of Sony's Cyber-shot® DSC-F707 digital still camera, featuring new technologies that make previously difficult pictures a whole lot easier to shoot. Priced at about $1000, the five-megapixel (MP) camera is the first of its kind to be aimed at, and priced for, the broad consumer market.

This new Cyber-shot model offers numerous options for both manual and automatic controls, so photographers can do as much, or as little, as they want to achieve extraordinary images. Built-in photo quality comes with a 5.24 MP CCD (5.02 MP effective), Carl Zeiss™ optics, and an advanced automatic flash system. Other controls have been added to enhance focus, exposure and composition.

'We're establishing a new benchmark with this camera for all photography - not just in the digital realm,' said Takashi Kondo, senior vice president of Sony Electronics' Digital Imaging Product Division. 'Not only does it take better pictures, it also offers new tools to challenge the creativity of even the most experienced photographer.' "

steve

 

[Glenn Barber]

I probably need a refresher on optics - but from what I remember depth of field turns out to be a direct inverse function of aperature size (not fstop). I seem to remember from my illustration photographer days, that large format cameras had a much shallower DOF than a 35mm at the same Fstop.

If this is the case the 707 (having a much larger format than the 505V or S85) would have a much narrower DOF even at the same aperatures.

Somebody smarter please correct me if I am wrong.

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have
found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75,
and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding
quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an
on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are
taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of
people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits,
you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for
whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people
shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as
they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing
it harder.

That is for sure.

It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still
have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder
mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket
science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we
are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at
sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is
quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot
slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a
bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away,
prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead
of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken
the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[/steve]

Glenn,

If the calculator at http://www.garageglamour.com/tips/depth.shtml is correct, DOF appears to increase along with film size when focal length and aperture stay the same.

If this is true, the .66" Sony 5MP CCD should have more inhereht DOF than the .55" 505v CCD, e.g. Since the 505v's max aperture is 2.8, however, it's harded to directly compare the two cameras.

Sony CCD sizes can be found at:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0103/01031801sony4megapixelccd.asp

steve

If this is the case the 707 (having a much larger format than the
505V or S85) would have a much narrower DOF even at the same
aperatures.

Somebody smarter please correct me if I am wrong.

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have
found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75,
and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding
quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an
on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are
taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of
people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits,
you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for
whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people
shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as
they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing
it harder.

That is for sure.

It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still
have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder
mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket
science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we
are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at
sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is
quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot
slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a
bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away,
prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead
of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken
the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[Ronnie T]

From their press release....

"Sony's Cyber-shot® DSC-F707 digital still camera, featuring new technologies that make previously difficult pictures a whole lot easier to shoot. "

With the dark LCD phenomena...

"Sony's Cyber-shot® DSC-F707 digital still camera, featuring new technologies that make previously easy pictures a whole lot difficult to shoot. "

 

[Donniedark]

From their press release....

"Sony's Cyber-shot® DSC-F707 digital still camera, featuring new
technologies that make previously difficult pictures a whole lot
easier to shoot. "

With the dark LCD phenomena...
"Sony's Cyber-shot® DSC-F707 digital still camera, featuring new
technologies that make previously easy pictures a whole lot
difficult to shoot. "