Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

The timing of this article is interesting, too. Why now? After decades of being business? Maybe trying to hype their upcoming mirrorless cameras?
The fact they use third party sensors has been a source of shame for Nikon for some time,
Actually, NO...

the fact that Nikon has been able to work with multiple sensor manufacturers has allowed Nikon to be able to shop and have fab houses build their sensors to their needs and specs, and thus, have always had cutting edge sensors in their cameras.

Unlike brands like Canon that have had 2010 sensor technology and dynamic range in their modern cameras, Nikon has always had their cameras performing and leading the charts with regards to dynamic range, high iso, tonal range, color bit depth.
 
. The fact they use third party sensors has been a source of shame for Nikon for some time
Shame? Why is it a shame?
PP didn't say it was a shame, he said that the situation has been a source of shame. Big difference.

Maybe because the Hertz to their Avis, Canon, fabs their own for the most part. Although IMHO, that has been more of an albatross for Canon than anything else. Some of the Canon geometries are, um, generous.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com
 
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Did you read the comments below the article? The author basically admits that Nikon put on a stage managed show for him and he fell for it.
Maybe Nikon should quit wasting their time and just use non-"nikon designed" Sony sensors. DXO shows that most of the top 10 cameras are Sony, and Photons-to-Photos also shows the Sony cameras performing better than Nikon.
Really? That's certainly not how I would interpret their information presented here.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Ratings

Did you do any research before making that statement? Or perhaps just make it up because it's what you want to believe?
The timing of this article is interesting, too. Why now? After decades of being business? Maybe trying to hype their upcoming mirrorless cameras?
--
Phil Harris
http://500px.com/philharris999
Try sorting them by sports score. I'm most interested in low-light, high ISO performance. Sony rules the top ranks on DXO when it comes to that, at least according to DXO. Also, if you look at the dynamic range charts over on photons-to-photos, the Sonys beat the Nikons by a not-so-insignificant margin. The D850 only really wins at extreme low ISO because it has 64. Otherwise, the a7riii beats it all throughout the range. Nikon's "secret sauce" doesn't seem to be doing much, IMO.

I posted this earlier. If this is Nikon's best, well, I wouldn't be bragging if I were them.

e91608bc8aea4aad9d1425892f97fc17.jpg
The thing is the D850 was designed around the ISO64 - for specific reasons, its one reason why the D810 was so popular.
They then built into it based on what people wanted, namely higher resolution and frame rate, better AF system etc.
You're right that there isnt a huge difference, but Nikon having a hand in tweaking the sensors to exactly what they want (e.g. D850's ISO64 and the D5's higher ISO) is certainly a marketing point and what their users seem to want.
Sure, ISO 64 is great for a very, very specific group of people. However, not so much for me, so I'd rather have a camera that does well across the board. I can hardly ever shoot at base ISO in the woods under tree cover, even of it's sunny out.
 
I know Nikon's and Sony's processing is different, but I shoot RAW, so don't look at jpegs much. I did rent an a7riii very briefly, so hard to say for sure, but it was putting out images pretty comparable to the D850. I wouldn't say, OMG, this Nikon-tweaked sensor is so much better. Just from what I've read, it sounds like Nikon is spending an awful lot of time on "sensor design" for very little, if any, gains over an off-the-shelf Sony. Maybe in the past, they were able to squeeze more out of them, but comparing two similar models (D850 vs a7riii) doesn't seem to show much difference.
Hi, I don't think it is wasted effort. Nikon needs to have their own sensor know-how in my opinion. They have used other fabs than Sony before ... of course right now all the fabs they used have somehow ended up with Sony or are no longer available (Aptina, Toshiba, Renesas) - but they must be looking for / talking to other fabs I am sure. Being totally dependent on Sony, while Canon and Sony have their own sensors - doesn't seem sensible to me.

Regards
True, this is probably not a good idea for them. Couldn't Sony just stop supplying them with sensors, and in effect, they'd be screwed?
Why would Sony do that? Sony sensor fabrication division is separate from Sony’s camera making division. Both the Sony camera division and Nikon are customers of the sensor fabrication division. I suspect Nikon is at least as large a customer as Sony’s camera division. Explain to me why Sony’s top brass would direct one very profitable division to dump a large, profitable client?
Judging by the D850 shortages (at least in the US), it already seems like they're having big trouble with production.
 
Sony makes so many products, Nikon is like a little ant by comparison. It's not like Sony needs Nikon around to survive.
They might need some of their steppers, but the larger issue has already been raised: the Japanese are masters of coopetition.

Jim
 
I know Nikon's and Sony's processing is different, but I shoot RAW, so don't look at jpegs much. I did rent an a7riii very briefly, so hard to say for sure, but it was putting out images pretty comparable to the D850. I wouldn't say, OMG, this Nikon-tweaked sensor is so much better. Just from what I've read, it sounds like Nikon is spending an awful lot of time on "sensor design" for very little, if any, gains over an off-the-shelf Sony. Maybe in the past, they were able to squeeze more out of them, but comparing two similar models (D850 vs a7riii) doesn't seem to show much difference.
Hi, I don't think it is wasted effort. Nikon needs to have their own sensor know-how in my opinion. They have used other fabs than Sony before ... of course right now all the fabs they used have somehow ended up with Sony or are no longer available (Aptina, Toshiba, Renesas) - but they must be looking for / talking to other fabs I am sure. Being totally dependent on Sony, while Canon and Sony have their own sensors - doesn't seem sensible to me.

Regards
True, this is probably not a good idea for them. Couldn't Sony just stop supplying them with sensors, and in effect, they'd be screwed?
Why would Sony do that? Sony sensor fabrication division is separate from Sony’s camera making division. Both the Sony camera division and Nikon are customers of the sensor fabrication division. I suspect Nikon is at least as large a customer as Sony’s camera division. Explain to me why Sony’s top brass would direct one very profitable division to dump a large, profitable client?
Judging by the D850 shortages (at least in the US), it already seems like they're having big trouble with production.
I don't know; it was just a hypothetical. If I have something my competitor absolutely needs to stay in business, and I want an easy way to put them out of business, I'd stop giving my competitor what they need. It would be a d!ck move, but business can be cutthroat.

Sony makes so many products, Nikon is like a little ant by comparison. It's not like Sony needs Nikon around to survive.
Maybe you have a wrong idea of how Japan works. Look up Mitsubishi Keiretsu.

And no, Nikon are not a competitor to Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation as it was already explained here earlier.

And no, Sony are not looking to put Nikon out of business, in some ways Sony are dependent on Nikon, but most importantly, it is Japan.
 
PP didn't say it was a shame, he said that the situation has been a source of shame. Big difference.

Jim
Any proof that Nikon see it as a source of shame?
 
PP didn't say it was a shame, he said that the situation has been a source of shame. Big difference.
Any proof that Nikon see it as a source of shame?
I have none. But it's not my claim. You'll have to ask the person who made the statement.
This would not be something that most companies would own up to, even if they felt it (or, to be more precise, if their employees felt it). There are plenty of good reasons to not have your own fabs, especially these days (although sensor geometries are nowhere near memory and computer feature sizes). But I can testify that, back in the day when I worked for large electronics companies, having your own fab was a divisional source of pride in engineering circles.

Jim
 
The timing of this article is interesting, too. Why now? After decades of being business?
David Etchells along with a couple of hundred other journalists and bloggers (including me) from around the world who cover the business of photography were all in the same hall in Tokyo back in August 2007 when Nikon introduced the D3. Back then questions were asked about who designed and who if not Nikon was fabricating the sensor in that camera. I know Etchells professionally and I know he’s been wanting to write an in-depth story about sensor design for a very long time. The other companies didn’t bite, but Nikon did.

Is this a p.r. coup for Nikon? Of course. Is any of the information discussed demonstrably untrue?

Well if you are knowledgeable speak up. Write to the editors of Dpreview or any other website or publication and pitch your own researched article refuting the information in the Imaging-resource article.
Maybe trying to hype their upcoming mirrorless cameras?
Maybe. In which case: smarter marketing on Nikon’s part than by either Team Sony or Team Canon, et. al.
I think so. The fact they use third party sensors has been a source of shame for Nikon for some time, and they are often intentionally misleading in their claims about "designing" their own sensors. If the rumours of the upcoming mirrorless are true, then Nikon will soon be directly competing with Sony FE for the first time so they need to try even harder to differentiate their sensors from Sony. Obviously the "article" is nothing more than a puff piece to help push the narrative that Nikon sensors are special and unique, but it is interesting to see how the Nikon faithful blindly accept it as fact because it tells them what they want to hear.
Some news from the real world;

not only are the Nikon designed sensors in Nikon cameras unique

- The Canon designed sensors (and not all are fabricated by Canon as well) are also unique

-The Sony designed sensors in Sony cameras are also unique.

- The Fuji designed sensors in Fuji cameras? Those are unique too.

- Same with the Panasonic designed sensors in their cameras,

-The sensors in Leica digital cameras? Also unique to Leica.

- Same with Olympus.

- Same with Sigma.

- The Sony manufactured sensors in Hasselblad and PhaseOne cameras? Unique to those respective brands as well.

And the same goes for the sensors in Arriflex, Panavision, and Red cameras.

Probably the same is true for Apple, and the various makers of Android compatible phones and tablets.

All of these companies employ a lot of really smart engineers. All of these companies bring something unique to their company’s products.

My point is: all of these companies design the sensor assemblies to perform they want them to perform. If company A develops a sensor technology and are willing to license it to Company B who wants to utilize for their purposes and incorporate with their in-house developed technology, and both sides can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement which might include fabrication deals , Company A’s management would be stupid not to do the deal. Not only would the licensing and fabrication fees bring in a lot of cash, but by being able to scale up manufacturing capacity to meet the increased demand Company A’s s basic manufacturing costs are lowered as well.

You exhibit all of the traits of a typical “brand warrior”. You think it is a zero sum game. You appear to think that for Sony to win, Nikon must lose. If Nikon fails, Sony loses a good customer. Both Sony and Nikon (in this instance) benefit from the co-operation as well as the competition.

You use words like “a source of shame” as if they are meaningful in the context of really big business. . This isn’t personal, it isn’t like your parents catching you watching porn.
 
Note that all the images were of FSI sensors.
Note the captions say they illustrate the process , not the actual sensors
But the illustrations that I'm talking about were of actual sensor designs, and none were FSI.
-which as no one is denying, are dabbed in a Sony connected plant.
Dabbed? Fabbed? I don't know that Sony fabricates all the Nikon sensors.

Jim
 
You exhibit all of the traits of a typical “brand warrior”. You think it is a zero sum game. You appear to think that for Sony to win, Nikon must lose. If Nikon fails, Sony loses a good customer. Both Sony and Nikon (in this instance) benefit from the co-operation as well as the competition.
You appear to be reading a lot into my comments, which have all been about the truthiness of Nikon's infomercial. I haven't made any pro Sony comments in this thread, I have said nothing about winning or losing, and I certainly haven't suggested that anything is a zero sum game.

If anyone is acting like a "brand warrior" it is you by blindly accepting this obvious PR material as fact, and even going as far as to call it "a fantastic piece of reporting".

You seem to only be able to understand my scepticism in the context of brand loyalty. Either your deep love for Nikon is clouding your judgement, or you are completely naive about the nature of advertising in the modern world.
You use words like “a source of shame” as if they are meaningful in the context of really big business. . This isn’t personal, it isn’t like your parents catching you watching porn.
They are meaningful. Losing face is a big deal in Japan.
 
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Did you read the comments below the article? The author basically admits that Nikon put on a stage managed show for him and he fell for it.
Maybe Nikon should quit wasting their time and just use non-"nikon designed" Sony sensors. DXO shows that most of the top 10 cameras are Sony, and Photons-to-Photos also shows the Sony cameras performing better than Nikon.
Really? That's certainly not how I would interpret their information presented here.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Ratings

Did you do any research before making that statement? Or perhaps just make it up because it's what you want to believe?
The timing of this article is interesting, too. Why now? After decades of being business? Maybe trying to hype their upcoming mirrorless cameras?
--
Phil Harris
http://500px.com/philharris999
Try sorting them by sports score. I'm most interested in low-light, high ISO performance. Sony rules the top ranks on DXO when it comes to that, at least according to DXO. Also, if you look at the dynamic range charts over on photons-to-photos, the Sonys beat the Nikons by a not-so-insignificant margin. The D850 only really wins at extreme low ISO because it has 64. Otherwise, the a7riii beats it all throughout the range. Nikon's "secret sauce" doesn't seem to be doing much, IMO.

I posted this earlier. If this is Nikon's best, well, I wouldn't be bragging if I were them.

e91608bc8aea4aad9d1425892f97fc17.jpg
The thing is the D850 was designed around the ISO64 - for specific reasons, its one reason why the D810 was so popular.
They then built into it based on what people wanted, namely higher resolution and frame rate, better AF system etc.
You're right that there isnt a huge difference, but Nikon having a hand in tweaking the sensors to exactly what they want (e.g. D850's ISO64 and the D5's higher ISO) is certainly a marketing point and what their users seem to want.
Sure, ISO 64 is great for a very, very specific group of people. However, not so much for me, so I'd rather have a camera that does well across the board. I can hardly ever shoot at base ISO in the woods under tree cover, even of it's sunny out.
Not sure how specific considering its useful in a number of different situations - just because you dont use it doesnt mean you're in the majority.
Like I said, a large proportion of D810 users really like the ISO64 and obviously Nikon wanted to cater to these people.
They have the D5 for those that need even better high ISO capability.
 
  • YPixel Pooper wrote:
You exhibit all of the traits of a typical “brand warrior”. You think it is a zero sum game. You appear to think that for Sony to win, Nikon must lose. If Nikon fails, Sony loses a good customer. Both Sony and Nikon (in this instance) benefit from the co-operation as well as the competition.
You appear to be reading a lot into my comments, which have all been about the truthiness of Nikon's infomercial. I haven't made any pro Sony comments in this thread, I have said nothing about winning or losing, and I certainly haven't suggested that anything is a zero sum game.

If anyone is acting like a "brand warrior" it is you by blindly accepting this obvious PR material as fact, and even going as far as to call it "a fantastic piece of reporting".

You seem to only be able to understand my scepticism in the context of brand loyalty. Either your deep love for Nikon is clouding your judgement, or you are completely naive about the nature of advertising in the modern world.
You use words like “a source of shame” as if they are meaningful in the context of really big business. . This isn’t personal, it isn’t like your parents catching you watching porn.
They are meaningful. Losing face is a big deal in Japan.
As I wrote: I look forward to reading your deeply researched and clearly written article on sensor design and engineering that refutes Mr. Etchells.

And of course you are not biased towards Sony - which explains why at least 24 of your recent posts reference Sony in their title, including one titled “Why our Studio switched to Sony.”

on the other hand I happily shoot with a variety of cameras. In the past month that has included the Sony A9, A7R III, the Canon EOS 5DS and 1D X, as well as the Nikon D850. I really don’t care a fig about the name on the camera. I’ve also shot in the past year with the Fuji G50X and over the years with other smaller format Fuji cameras, Phase One, and Hasselblad. I can’t recall using any Panasonic or Olympus cameras however. And I can’t recall trying to convince anyone to buy any of these brands over the others. When I do review cameras or lenses or lights, or modifiers I point out what I think are the strong points and weak points from my perspective which is as follows:

No machine is perfect and no one machine is the best fit for everyone. The only thing that will make anyone’s photographs better is practice, study, experimentation, and application.

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
Or on instagram @therealellisv
 
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Any proof that Nikon see it as a source of shame?
No proof, but the fact that they put on such an elaborate show for this sponsored article, and the way they mince words whenever they talk about their sensor designs certainly points to something.
You come across as seeming to have an axe to grind?
 
As I wrote: I look forward to reading your deeply researched and clearly written article on sensor design and engineering that refutes Mr. Etchells.
Keep waiting. As a person with integrity, I would never write a sponsored article.
And of course you are not biased towards Sony - which explains why at least 24 of your recent posts reference Sony in their title,
I am a Sony user, that is no secret so of course most of my posts relate to Sony cameras
including one titled “Why our Studio switched to Sony.”
You seem to have missed the "Re:" in front of the title of that post which means it was a reply to the thread. Is this (my only post in that thread) the smoking gun that proves my Sony bias, or are you just really bad at understanding online content?

abb22cb948b940efbab1d081e5d7161e.jpg
 
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As I wrote: I look forward to reading your deeply researched and clearly written article on sensor design and engineering that refutes Mr. Etchells.
Keep waiting. As a person with integrity, I would never write a sponsored article.
who said it had to be sponsored?
And of course you are not biased towards Sony - which explains why at least 24 of your recent posts reference Sony in their title,
I am a Sony user, that is no secret so of course most of my posts relate to Sony cameras
including one titled “Why our Studio switched to Sony.”
You seem to have missed the "Re:" in front of the title of that post which means it was a reply to the thread. Is this (my only post in that thread) the smoking gun that proves my Sony bias, or are you just really bad at understanding online content?

abb22cb948b940efbab1d081e5d7161e.jpg
And the other twenty three smoking guns?

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
Or on instagram @therealellisv
 

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