Pan Indexing Click Rotator Head

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

Wow, I'm impressed that my local stores not only don't carry any of these, but most of the employees didn't know what it is!

I bought this cheap knock off rotator on eBay. I don't like it for several reasons, mainly because the clicks don't seem well engineered. It feels okay playing with the thing in your hands, but once you mount it on a tripod and get a camera+lens payload on it, the indents seem sloppy (there's some play) and sometimes hard to feel (I sometimes have to move it back and forth to be sure I'm on an index). I've played with tightening the indexing screw down, even with the worry that it would increase the rate of wear, but it didn't really help much.

So I was thinking "bite the bullet and get a good one", like the Manfrotto 300n. However, it's so much more expensive that I wanted to play with it first — after all, maybe this works pretty much like the cheap knock-off I bought — but nobody around here has one.

My questions for you:

1. If anyone here has experience with both, is there a definite advantage, big enough to be worth the difference in price?
2. I'm not stuck on the Manfrotto, so if you have recommendations for something else that you believe works well, feel free to mention.

Thanks, Chris

 

[tradesmith45]

Wow, I'm impressed that my local stores not only don't carry any of these, but most of the employees didn't know what it is!
I bought this cheap knock off rotator on eBay. I don't like it for several reasons, mainly because the clicks don't seem well engineered. It feels okay playing with the thing in your hands, but once you mount it on a tripod and get a camera+lens payload on it, the indents seem sloppy (there's some play) and sometimes hard to feel (I sometimes have to move it back and forth to be sure I'm on an index). I've played with tightening the indexing screw down, even with the worry that it would increase the rate of wear, but it didn't really help much.

So I was thinking "bite the bullet and get a good one", like the Manfrotto 300n. However, it's so much more expensive that I wanted to play with it first — after all, maybe this works pretty much like the cheap knock-off I bought — but nobody around here has one.

My questions for you:

1. If anyone here has experience with both, is there a definite advantage, big enough to be worth the difference in price?
2. I'm not stuck on the Manfrotto, so if you have recommendations for something else that you believe works well, feel free to mention.

Thanks, Chris

Why do you want an Indexing rotor? These rarely match the lens FL of what you own.

I use a ball head w/ a panning clamp - not may of those around. If your current ball head has a fixed clamp, you can buy a panning clam off eBay to retro fit it. Here's an example: panning clamp. Most ball head use either a set scores or threaded post to attach the clamp. Search for a panning clamp that matches what your head uses.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

Wow, I'm impressed that my local stores not only don't carry any of these, but most of the employees didn't know what it is!
I bought this cheap knock off rotator on eBay. I don't like it for several reasons, mainly because the clicks don't seem well engineered. It feels okay playing with the thing in your hands, but once you mount it on a tripod and get a camera+lens payload on it, the indents seem sloppy (there's some play) and sometimes hard to feel (I sometimes have to move it back and forth to be sure I'm on an index). I've played with tightening the indexing screw down, even with the worry that it would increase the rate of wear, but it didn't really help much.

So I was thinking "bite the bullet and get a good one", like the Manfrotto 300n. However, it's so much more expensive that I wanted to play with it first — after all, maybe this works pretty much like the cheap knock-off I bought — but nobody around here has one.

My questions for you:

1. If anyone here has experience with both, is there a definite advantage, big enough to be worth the difference in price?
2. I'm not stuck on the Manfrotto, so if you have recommendations for something else that you believe works well, feel free to mention.

Thanks, Chris

Why do you want an Indexing rotor? These rarely match the lens FL of what you own.

Click on either of the links above for an example. "Indexing" means that you can change the index to click-stops that fits your FL by changing the screw position.

They adjust in 5° increments up to 90° per click. The indexes click at screw position indents that you can feel / hear in the dark, so you don't have to turn on light.

I use a ball head w/ a panning clamp - not may of those around. If your current ball head has a fixed clamp, you can buy a panning clam off eBay to retro fit it. Here's an example: panning clamp. Most ball head use either a set scores or threaded post to attach the clamp. Search for a panning clamp that matches what your head uses.

I looked and looked and am not sure what that would give me that I don't already have. My Arca Swiss Z1 head has dual panning, one at the base and one above the ball under the clamp, both with 360 index marks. I can use that if I use light, but I want to keep my night eyes.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

Or maybe I should have made it more clear that I'm working in the dark, but didn't think I had to since this is the astrophotography forum area.

Chris

 

[tradesmith45]

Wow, I'm impressed that my local stores not only don't carry any of these, but most of the employees didn't know what it is!
I bought this cheap knock off rotator on eBay. I don't like it for several reasons, mainly because the clicks don't seem well engineered. It feels okay playing with the thing in your hands, but once you mount it on a tripod and get a camera+lens payload on it, the indents seem sloppy (there's some play) and sometimes hard to feel (I sometimes have to move it back and forth to be sure I'm on an index). I've played with tightening the indexing screw down, even with the worry that it would increase the rate of wear, but it didn't really help much.

So I was thinking "bite the bullet and get a good one", like the Manfrotto 300n. However, it's so much more expensive that I wanted to play with it first — after all, maybe this works pretty much like the cheap knock-off I bought — but nobody around here has one.

My questions for you:

1. If anyone here has experience with both, is there a definite advantage, big enough to be worth the difference in price?
2. I'm not stuck on the Manfrotto, so if you have recommendations for something else that you believe works well, feel free to mention.

Thanks, Chris

Why do you want an Indexing rotor? These rarely match the lens FL of what you own.

Click on either of the links above for an example. "Indexing" means that you can change the index to click-stops that fits your FL by changing the screw position.

They adjust in 5° increments up to 90° per click. The indexes click at screw position indents that you can feel / hear in the dark, so you don't have to turn on light.

I use a ball head w/ a panning clamp - not may of those around. If your current ball head has a fixed clamp, you can buy a panning clam off eBay to retro fit it. Here's an example: panning clamp. Most ball head use either a set scores or threaded post to attach the clamp. Search for a panning clamp that matches what your head uses.

I looked and looked and am not sure what that would give me that I don't already have. My Arca Swiss Z1 head has dual panning, one at the base and one above the ball under the clamp, both with 360 index marks. I can use that if I use light, but I want to keep my night eyes.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

Or maybe I should have made it more clear that I'm working in the dark, but didn't think I had to since this is the astrophotography forum area.

Chris

W/ your head w/ panning clamp, you have no need for an indexing base for dark or daylight use. I've used both a complete nodal head & a simpler system (L-bracket on camera & nodal rail) for night panos. The former is best if your night foreground has objects close to the camera. If not, no need for any of this, just use the ball head.

Regardless of set-up used, a little red light will usually be needed to align the head/camera for your pano. Even an indexing head will require a bit of light to change position & get the pin in the right position.

Here's simple system w/ just an L-bracket & nodal rail. Note the panning clamp on the ball head. That's used instead of an indexing rotor.





And here's a complete nodal head being used.



Again, these are only needed if a portion of the foreground is close to the camera which is likely to result in parallax errors. If all your foreground is far from the camera (say >50m), none of this is needed.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

W/ your head w/ panning clamp, you have no need for an indexing base for dark or daylight use. I've used both a complete nodal head & a simpler system (L-bracket on camera & nodal rail) for night panos. The former is best if your night foreground has objects close to the camera. If not, no need for any of this, just use the ball head.

Regardless of set-up used, a little red light will usually be needed to align the head/camera for your pano.

Thanks, I know that I don't NEED such a head — I have already done plenty of day/night pans without one — but I know that I WANT one. I already HAVE one, but think it's inferior. My post was to ask for comparisons to the Manfrotto or other higher quality ones.

I use a nodal rail. I have a headlamp with a red mode.

Even an indexing head will require a bit of light to change position & get the pin in the right position.

You may need a light to change the pin to another position if you change lenses in the field, but after that, all pan positions are done completely in the darkness. This typically does not happen, or happen often.

To understand why I want this, even though you would never see the need to do it in your own rig: I can pan much quicker and accurately in the dark with no use of light. I don't even have to look in the viewfinder to verify panning overlap as I've selected the indexer degrees that match my focal length.

Thanks for your input!
Chris

 

[jannefoo]

I've heard good things about Sunwayfoto rotator: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232157534930

There is also Nodal Ninja: https://shop.nodalninja.com/advanced-rotator-d10-f1140/

Personally, I bought a Konado PR-12 for their Panomaxx2 panorama head (it originally came with PR-3 rotator), but they don't sell those anymore. PR-12 has click stops for 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 24, 30 and 36 images per full turn; PR-3 had clicks for 10, 16, and 24 images per 360 degrees.

 

[1llusive]

W/ your head w/ panning clamp, you have no need for an indexing base for dark or daylight use. I've used both a complete nodal head & a simpler system (L-bracket on camera & nodal rail) for night panos. The former is best if your night foreground has objects close to the camera. If not, no need for any of this, just use the ball head.

Regardless of set-up used, a little red light will usually be needed to align the head/camera for your pano.

Thanks, I know that I don't NEED such a head — I have already done plenty of day/night pans without one — but I know that I WANT one. I already HAVE one, but think it's inferior. My post was to ask for comparisons to the Manfrotto or other higher quality ones.

I use a nodal rail. I have a headlamp with a red mode.

Even an indexing head will require a bit of light to change position & get the pin in the right position.

You may need a light to change the pin to another position if you change lenses in the field, but after that, all pan positions are done completely in the darkness. This typically does not happen, or happen often.

To understand why I want this, even though you would never see the need to do it in your own rig: I can pan much quicker and accurately in the dark with no use of light. I don't even have to look in the viewfinder to verify panning overlap as I've selected the indexer degrees that match my focal length.

This does seem interesting to me. If it helps make things easier, I'm all for it.

Following.

 

[nighthiker]

Hi!

Indexing rotators make a lot of sense at night. I'm doing all my polar light panoramas with them and don't want to miss them. I'm mostly using the Novoflex rotators (https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/panorama/panorama-panning-bases.html) which have a ball-bearing for precision. On top I often use the Novoflex panorama head (VR system slim) which is light (for backpacking) but the stability with a 1.5-2 kg camera (DSLR plus (U)WA) is somehow limited in windy conditions. For rough conditions I use the NodalNinja system which is more heavy but it's also better to handle in demanding (e.g. cold) conditions. I don't know the RRS rotator but I use their tripods.

I also have Sunway rotators (http://www.sunwayfoto.com/e_goodsmulu.aspx?cid=37) on my light tripod. They are moderately priced, no ball-bearing and less robust than the Novoflex or NodalNinja rotators. They are not bad, it's just: You get what you pay for.

My recommendation would be Novoflex, NN and probably RRS if you can afford it. Sunway is a budged oriented alternative and you feel the difference if you use it.

 

[Hoka Hey]

Terry,

What is this? Would you show a picture of it by itself?

Thanks

Joe

 

[bmike]

Hi!

Indexing rotators make a lot of sense at night. I'm doing all my polar light panoramas with them and don't want to miss them. I'm mostly using the Novoflex rotators (https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/panorama/panorama-panning-bases.html) which have a ball-bearing for precision. On top I often use the Novoflex panorama head (VR system slim) which is light (for backpacking) but the stability with a 1.5-2 kg camera (DSLR plus (U)WA) is somehow limited in windy conditions. For rough conditions I use the NodalNinja system which is more heavy but it's also better to handle in demanding (e.g. cold) conditions. I don't know the RRS rotator but I use their tripods.

I also have Sunway rotators (http://www.sunwayfoto.com/e_goodsmulu.aspx?cid=37) on my light tripod. They are moderately priced, no ball-bearing and less robust than the Novoflex or NodalNinja rotators. They are not bad, it's just: You get what you pay for.

My recommendation would be Novoflex, NN and probably RRS if you can afford it. Sunway is a budged oriented alternative and you feel the difference if you use it.

Quoting this and replying to follow this. I have a RRS pano setup - it is great - but I wish it had index points for night work. I bought it for daytime landscapes as well as interior work - and its fine to align the graduated number marks - but it does pose challenges - especially at night when on is tired.

What I don't like about it:

1. At night, I need to toggle my headlamp on and off between shots. Not a big deal, but its 1 more step.

2. Having pre-set index points would eliminate chance for overlap error in the dark, shooting during challenging conditions (mountain top, wind, sunrise or sunset with moving clouds, etc).

3. Right now I have a lens that is 'in between' markings - so I need to be mentally on top of how much I'm rotating / moving each time... and pay attention to the markings (with the headlamp on) when making a movement.

 

[nighthiker]

Hi!

I wasn't aware that the RRS rotator has no click-stops. That would be a 'no-go' for me and normally RRS is very good even with details.

Have you thought about phosphorescent paint or tape?

Using an index rotator you have to check what you are doing! Once I was shooting PL panos and thinking that I was using a 10 deg increment (that is a good all purpose setting for all my lenses) but it was a 12.5 deg increment. So instead of a 40 deg rotation (4 klicks), I was using a 50 deg rotation which wasn't good for the overlap.

 

[bmike]

Hi!

I wasn't aware that the RRS rotator has no click-stops. That would be a 'no-go' for me and normally RRS is very good even with details.

Have you thought about phosphorescent paint or tape?

Using an index rotator you have to check what you are doing! Once I was shooting PL panos and thinking that I was using a 10 deg increment (that is a good all purpose setting for all my lenses) but it was a 12.5 deg increment. So instead of a 40 deg rotation (4 klicks), I was using a 50 deg rotation which wasn't good for the overlap.

Yes, I know you need to check the overlap with the clicks - but I would do that before leaving the house for night sky work.

The setup I have has no indexes... it doesn't look like they have any with index capability.

 

[NancyP]

I see that Sunwayfoto makes them: DDP-64M, -64SI, -64X . I like my Sunwayfoto discal clamp that fits the A-S p0 head, and 100mm rail, haven't seen their indexing rotator in person. You might try this indexing rotator. Or is it the one you have tried already?

Nodal Ninja makes the grand-daddy of indexing rotators, RD16vII. Panorama equipment is their business. The Nodal Ninja top surface is non-standard, so one also has to use their A-S screw clamp. They state that they are in the process of making a click-stop upper rotator for doing 2 row panoramas quickly. Not cheap, but not as expensive as RRS. NN's most versatile multi-row pano kit costs over $500. (M2 gimbal rotator, RD16vII base indexing rotator. The M2 is the rotator that lacks clicks.

RRS. Quality, but eye-poppingly expensive

 

[tradesmith45]

Terry,

What is this? Would you show a picture of it by itself?

Thanks

Joe

This is a DIY 45º wedge made from a sawed off piece of 2" Al bar stock. I ventilated it to cut the weight in half. I backpack so weight matters.

Its purpose is placing the ball head in a position so ball remains in the region with max movement rather than in the notch. This makes it easier to shot panos from atop a tracker. W/ the ball in the notch, its common to have to adjust both the base & ball while making a pano.

I'm considering switching to an Acratech Ultimate head.

But the other thing this wedge does is make the use of a simple nodal rail possible for pano. W/ a rail only, you must use the ball head panning base for rotations when the camera is tilted up/down in order to rotate around the lens nodal point. The camera has to be slid back/forth when tilted to place the nodal point over the axis of the head. This is complicated to write but easy to see if you try it.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

NancyP wrote:
[...]

Nodal Ninja makes the grand-daddy of indexing rotators, RD16vII. Panorama equipment is their business. The Nodal Ninja top surface is non-standard, so one also has to use their A-S screw clamp.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that on this or their other pano heads. Looks like this is the clamp that works.

They state that they are in the process of making a click-stop upper rotator for doing 2 row panoramas quickly.

Now this has my interest piqued, so much so that I can wait for it. Are you talking about the NN6, or something else?

Thanks much, Chris

 

[tradesmith45]

I shot Fuji, much smaller than your Nikon gear. FWIW, I've bought & returned 3 or 4 pano heads because the rotor detents/clicks were coarse & unreliable. All of these were too small for your use. I've not tried Manfrotto gear & yes your right rotor smoothness is hard to find. Buy from a shop w/ a good return policy.

I've encountered 2 universal problems w/ nodal pano heads that may be instructive for you. The other problem I had is even the expensive nodal heads that I returned had poor rotor systems for the vertical adjustments. They all had only one size adjustment for the vertical & these were usually not very smooth. The one size means there's nearly always a mismatch to the lens I want to use so I'd have to overlap more that I needed.

The second issue is variable camera sag with different positions and wind vibration. Since I backpack, I use light everything & these problems are universal for light gear. I also own big pods & heads. Nodal heads always lengthen the lever arm applied by the camera/lens weight. I've found that even w/ the largest trackers, tripods & ball heads there's always variable sag w/ larger cameras & lenses. This sometimes leads to stitching problems. And wind is still an issue. A nodal rail/L-bracket system has a shorter arm & less sag. The downside is now your using the ball head for making adjustments & turning on a red lamp.

All these dammed if you do dammed if you don't problems lead me to say keep your night pano foreground far enough away that you can do them w/o a nodal system.

Best of luck w/ your quest!

 

[Hoka Hey]

This is a DIY 45º wedge made from a sawed off piece of 2" Al bar stock. I ventilated it to cut the weight in half. I backpack so weight matters.

Its purpose is placing the ball head in a position so ball remains in the region with max movement rather than in the notch. This makes it easier to shot panos from atop a tracker. W/ the ball in the notch, its common to have to adjust both the base & ball while making a pano.

I'm considering switching to an Acratech Ultimate head.

But the other thing this wedge does is make the use of a simple nodal rail possible for pano. W/ a rail only, you must use the ball head panning base for rotations when the camera is tilted up/down in order to rotate around the lens nodal point. The camera has to be slid back/forth when tilted to place the nodal point over the axis of the head. This is complicated to write but easy to see if you try it.

Thanks Terry. Love the design of the wedge. I've been trying to solve the problem that this fixes. Wish it was available commercially.

Joe

 

[tradesmith45]

This is a DIY 45º wedge made from a sawed off piece of 2" Al bar stock. I ventilated it to cut the weight in half. I backpack so weight matters.

Its purpose is placing the ball head in a position so ball remains in the region with max movement rather than in the notch. This makes it easier to shot panos from atop a tracker. W/ the ball in the notch, its common to have to adjust both the base & ball while making a pano.

I'm considering switching to an Acratech Ultimate head.

But the other thing this wedge does is make the use of a simple nodal rail possible for pano. W/ a rail only, you must use the ball head panning base for rotations when the camera is tilted up/down in order to rotate around the lens nodal point. The camera has to be slid back/forth when tilted to place the nodal point over the axis of the head. This is complicated to write but easy to see if you try it.

Thanks Terry. Love the design of the wedge. I've been trying to solve the problem that this fixes. Wish it was available commercially.

Joe

A local machine shop can make something like this for you for maybe $100.

One problem w/ my DIY design is that to reposition the wedge, you have to run the tracker awhile if yours doesn't have a clutch system. An open design that Roger uses would allow use of a nut to attach the wedge an any desire position. Problem there is many trackers have very short tripod studs so the plate has to be thin & probably flexible.

You could also try Z plates from eBay or Amazon. Don't know how sturdy these are.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

Thanks to all of the items mentioned in this subthread. I have them bookmarked for consideration.

Chris

 

[bmike]

This is a DIY 45º wedge made from a sawed off piece of 2" Al bar stock. I ventilated it to cut the weight in half. I backpack so weight matters.

Its purpose is placing the ball head in a position so ball remains in the region with max movement rather than in the notch. This makes it easier to shot panos from atop a tracker. W/ the ball in the notch, its common to have to adjust both the base & ball while making a pano.

I'm considering switching to an Acratech Ultimate head.

But the other thing this wedge does is make the use of a simple nodal rail possible for pano. W/ a rail only, you must use the ball head panning base for rotations when the camera is tilted up/down in order to rotate around the lens nodal point. The camera has to be slid back/forth when tilted to place the nodal point over the axis of the head. This is complicated to write but easy to see if you try it.

Thanks Terry. Love the design of the wedge. I've been trying to solve the problem that this fixes. Wish it was available commercially.

Joe

A local machine shop can make something like this for you for maybe $100.

One problem w/ my DIY design is that to reposition the wedge, you have to run the tracker awhile if yours doesn't have a clutch system. An open design that Roger uses would allow use of a nut to attach the wedge an any desire position. Problem there is many trackers have very short tripod studs so the plate has to be thin & probably flexible.

You could also try Z plates from eBay or Amazon. Don't know how sturdy these are.

I’ve considered replacing the ball head I use on my Vixen Polarie with one of these:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1182201-REG/sirui_bsrl20s_l_20s_2_way_pan_tilt_head.html