Pan Indexing Click Rotator Head

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

neverendinglight wrote:
[...]

Thread resurrection....

By "upper rotator" do you guys mean the Tilt part of panos? There seem to be plenty of panning indexing click heads but I can't find any that have tilt indexing clicks. Any luck?

Yes, the vertical rotation for tilting up down with stops is what I meant by upper rotator.

You need to spring for their Giga head ($$$). This link shows an M2 package with the Giga, or you can get a update kit for your existing M2 on their accessories menu (M2 parts).

I ended up with the package linked to in my previous post (M2 w/RD16-II (F8002)) and it's working just fine. If you pre-determine the degrees of tilt, you can just use the tab to mark the stop point, or just use the degree ticks on the marked index ring. I haven't had a problem with it, but I have yet to do a lot of astro panos (in the dark) yet.

Chris

Thanks! Weird that these guys are the only guys providing options for upper index clicks. I'm looking at taking a 90 image pano with 10 rows and 9 columns - IN THE DARK! Having the clicks both ways will be useful. Cheers!

FYI: Nodal Ninja is having a 50% off sale. I just ordered the Giga M2 upgrade kit for my M2. If you have nothing yet, you can get the full package for much less than I've paid (hoping you haven't ordered yet).

They aren't going out of business, but they're closing up US operations (moving the the far east). Thing will still be available at online merchants (like B&H). but no more US online presence.

The URL for the store is: https://shop.nodalninja.com

The code to use at check-out is "50off"

Not affiliated -- just glad to have the half-off savings!

Chris

PS: one of the reasons they give for closing operations is all the chinese knock-offs for similar products for much less. I bought a few of those pieces and to be honest, they're garbage compared to the NN stuff. The rotator clicks are a joke (not much help in the dark) and the stops are sloppy, so not very accurate. The knock-off rails are not bad (hard to screw those up with today's technology), but all the connecting parts together for a full rig that's dependable is another thing.

 

[jakelindsay]

neverendinglight wrote:
[...]

Thread resurrection....

By "upper rotator" do you guys mean the Tilt part of panos? There seem to be plenty of panning indexing click heads but I can't find any that have tilt indexing clicks. Any luck?

Yes, the vertical rotation for tilting up down with stops is what I meant by upper rotator.

You need to spring for their Giga head ($$$). This link shows an M2 package with the Giga, or you can get a update kit for your existing M2 on their accessories menu (M2 parts).

I ended up with the package linked to in my previous post (M2 w/RD16-II (F8002)) and it's working just fine. If you pre-determine the degrees of tilt, you can just use the tab to mark the stop point, or just use the degree ticks on the marked index ring. I haven't had a problem with it, but I have yet to do a lot of astro panos (in the dark) yet.

Chris

Thanks! Weird that these guys are the only guys providing options for upper index clicks. I'm looking at taking a 90 image pano with 10 rows and 9 columns - IN THE DARK! Having the clicks both ways will be useful. Cheers!

FYI: Nodal Ninja is having a 50% off sale. I just ordered the Giga M2 upgrade kit for my M2. If you have nothing yet, you can get the full package for much less than I've paid (hoping you haven't ordered yet).

They aren't going out of business, but they're closing up US operations (moving the the far east). Thing will still be available at online merchants (like B&H). but no more US online presence.

The URL for the store is: https://shop.nodalninja.com

The code to use at check-out is "50off"

Not affiliated -- just glad to have the half-off savings!

Chris

PS: one of the reasons they give for closing operations is all the chinese knock-offs for similar products for much less. I bought a few of those pieces and to be honest, they're garbage compared to the NN stuff. The rotator clicks are a joke (not much help in the dark) and the stops are sloppy, so not very accurate. The knock-off rails are not bad (hard to screw those up with today's technology), but all the connecting parts together for a full rig that's dependable is another thing.

Thanks. I've tried three different times since your post to get to their website but it's down for maintenance. Sad story about the reasons behind the closure of the US presence. I went with a custom setup: Acratech Panoramic head stacked on a back ordered (really hope B&H gets it) NN RD16 II indexing rotator stacked on an oban leveling base.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

Thanks. I've tried three different times since your post to get to their website but it's down for maintenance. Sad story about the reasons behind the closure of the US presence. I went with a custom setup: Acratech Panoramic head stacked on a back ordered (really hope B&H gets it) NN RD16 II indexing rotator stacked on an oban leveling base.

The RD16II is the one I have -- I like it. I've tried Chinese rotator knock-offs that were sloppy but the NN is very positive and accurate.

You probably have it by now, but if not: the NN folks are still distributing through retainers such as B&H. There site is back up, but as a catalog reference only.

I got the Giga uprade yesterday and played around with it. This is my review:

Short Synopsis: if you have a good horizontal rotator, you really don't need this for normal 2 or 3 row panos. You can just predetermine the number of tilt degrees and visually line it up (for astro, do that with a flashlight in red mode -- if you do astro and don't have a red light, get one).

Cons:

• It's not like a horizontal rotator, where you can just click through to each stop in the dark by feel. The stop plungers on the Giga are locks rather than just spring-action ball-bearings -- you need to actuate a lever to move from stop to stop, so it's a little more involved and you have to pay more attention. This makes perfect sense once you start using it, because the camera package is weighty and you need it to positively lock for it to stay at each stop (remember that the payload is centered on the nodal point / entrance pupil, not balanced on the center of the payload weight)
• Even not in the dark, the stops are more difficult (than the horizontal rotators) to feel. I suppose one gets better with it over time, but since you are lifting a lever to raise the stop-plunger from one stop, only lowering it once you move away from that stop, you have to be really quick to lower than lever (and plunger) to the surface of the plate while being sure you don't pass one stop up. All of the stops are very close together, so it's easier to miss a stop than you might think.
• As I said in the last item, the stops are very close together, all of them (even the larger degree increments). There are levers for stops up to 7.5 degrees, but it's really a 3.75 lever that you have to do twice to get 7.5 degrees. There are 8 stop numbers, but really only 4 levers. (If someone who uses this knows that I'm wrong and that I just don't know how to actually get 7.5 degrees without going for two 3.75 stops, please speak up -- the documentation from these guys has never been great, even while their workmanship is first rate). Engineering wise, the plate and stop-plunger design is very good -- they use two plungers per lever, otherwise the stops would have been impossible to get down to those lower degrees (the holes would be too close to each other).

Pros:

• The good news for those of us doing astro, 2-3 row panos where we don't want to mess with the incredibly small stop increments that the Giga head has: There are two large positive stop tabs (see the 2 large blue levers on the face of the plate in the below image). You can put the camera at one extent of your tilt region and place one hard stop tab there, then rotate the whole package to the other extent of the range and put the 2nd stop tab there. Now you can quickly move from one region end to the next in the dark without worrying about plungers. That's good for 2 rows right there. If you want to do 3, then you can still use the method of predetermining the stopping place on the index ring (the degree mark) and then at the end of row 1, quickly move the head to that middle position (using a red-mode flashlight) and do the next row. The 3rd row still has the hard stop, so no flashlight required. Use the same method for more than 3 rows if you like (just noting the number of degrees of tilt for each of the rows between the 2 hard stops).
• If you're doing actual huge GIGA panos (several rows with a telephoto lens stitched together to make a vastly more detailed image than you could possibly make with a single lens / camera sensor), this is the way to do it. There are automated (much more expensive) devices that do this as well, but this one has a few advantages.
• Using this head, it's possible to stitch together images with panels that have no detail for a stitching app to use (always frustrating when the app can't find control points for stitching).
• With accurate stops both horizontal and vertical, it's possible to get the exact same pano multiple times, which is nice if you want to try different exposures, or take a 2nd run as a safety (sucks when you get home and stitch and find an obstruction you didn't see during the shoot).

Ciao!

 

[jakelindsay]

Great review. I saw that setup and it looks like a great piece of kit. BH still has my RD16 back ordered. I've been using the Sunway foto one and I'm finding that the rotating index clicks aren't positive enough and I can easily go right by one. You can adjust this with the locking mechanism but it doesn't stay put very well. When I was reading your review and read that you have to adjust the lever every time you want to rotate, I thought what a pain but at the same time at least you know you haven't over shot your distance. Kind of important when doing 90 image panos, LOL!

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

Great review. I saw that setup and it looks like a great piece of kit. BH still has my RD16 back ordered. I've been using the Sunway foto one and I'm finding that the rotating index clicks aren't positive enough and I can easily go right by one. You can adjust this with the locking mechanism but it doesn't stay put very well. When I was reading your review and read that you have to adjust the lever every time you want to rotate, I thought what a pain but at the same time at least you know you haven't over shot your distance. Kind of important when doing 90 image panos, LOL!

Aye, especially if you're doing panos that large and there's not enough registration / control points to line up the images -- you just want to use Grid view and it needs to be very accurate.

I'm not sure if that's an issue for astro work yet, as I haven't done any astro panos that large — YET!

Chris

 

[Hoka Hey]

Great review. I saw that setup and it looks like a great piece of kit. BH still has my RD16 back ordered. I've been using the Sunway foto one and I'm finding that the rotating index clicks aren't positive enough and I can easily go right by one. You can adjust this with the locking mechanism but it doesn't stay put very well. When I was reading your review and read that you have to adjust the lever every time you want to rotate, I thought what a pain but at the same time at least you know you haven't over shot your distance. Kind of important when doing 90 image panos, LOL!

Aye, especially if you're doing panos that large and there's not enough registration / control points to line up the images -- you just want to use Grid view and it needs to be very accurate.

I'm not sure if that's an issue for astro work yet, as I haven't done any astro panos that large — YET!

Chris

Check out the large format astro images that Ian Norman is doing over at Lonely Speck with a simple head setup and a Sigma Art 105.

How to Shoot Large Format Astrophotography Panoramas with Any Camera

We’re on a quest to capture more pixels. This is our guided tutorial behind how to shoot and process extremely high resolution large format landscape astrophotography. With the techniques in …

www.lonelyspeck.com

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

[...]

I'm not sure if that's an issue for astro work yet, as I haven't done any astro panos that large — YET!

Chris

Check out the large format astro images that Ian Norman is doing over at Lonely Speck with a simple head setup and a Sigma Art 105.

https://www.lonelyspeck.com/how-to-shoot-large-format-astrophotography-panoramas/

Very cool! Nice article, and there's a few calculators out there (on that page and other pages linked to) that are very helpful.

Thanks!
Chris

 

[Tomx72]

Check out the large format astro images that Ian Norman is doing over at Lonely Speck with a simple head setup and a Sigma Art 105.

https://www.lonelyspeck.com/how-to-shoot-large-format-astrophotography-panoramas/

Nice, but still a lot of manual work, especially with a longer lens. A robotic solution makes sense especially with larger lenses in conjunction with automated exposure control to shoot e.g. 10x1minute for each frame. I think a programmable go-to mount would be the ideal solution, not very mobile though...

 

[Hoka Hey]

Check out the large format astro images that Ian Norman is doing over at Lonely Speck with a simple head setup and a Sigma Art 105.

https://www.lonelyspeck.com/how-to-shoot-large-format-astrophotography-panoramas/

Nice, but still a lot of manual work, especially with a longer lens. A robotic solution makes sense especially with larger lenses in conjunction with automated exposure control to shoot e.g. 10x1minute for each frame. I think a programmable go-to mount would be the ideal solution, not very mobile though...

Agreed. However, they are hard to pack in to areas with nice foreground interest and low light pollution.

 

[Tomx72]

Check out the large format astro images that Ian Norman is doing over at Lonely Speck with a simple head setup and a Sigma Art 105.

https://www.lonelyspeck.com/how-to-shoot-large-format-astrophotography-panoramas/

Nice, but still a lot of manual work, especially with a longer lens. A robotic solution makes sense especially with larger lenses in conjunction with automated exposure control to shoot e.g. 10x1minute for each frame. I think a programmable go-to mount would be the ideal solution, not very mobile though...

Agreed. However, they are hard to pack in to areas with nice foreground interest and low light pollution.

I was thinking on something like the Syrp Genie or the more astro-geared (and a lot cheaper...) skywatcher AZ-GTi. I still need to figure, if these could be matched with either of my trackers: the small iOptron skytracker or the larger Fornax LighTrack.

 

[jakelindsay]

I wonder how much improved IQ you see with a Panorama vs a series of 4 or 5 stacked shots that are tracked. I suppose there would be a good improvement on detail shooting with a telephoto. Something tells me you really need to use the stitching software Ian references (PTgui) in order to handle the amount of shots and deciding how to handle corners that are almost always softer than the center of the frame when shooting at low F stops. I can't see Lightroom even being able to merge all the shots, let alone with any accuracy.

 

[NotASpeckOfCereal]

I wonder how much improved IQ you see with a Panorama vs a series of 4 or 5 stacked shots that are tracked. I suppose there would be a good improvement on detail shooting with a telephoto. Something tells me you really need to use the stitching software Ian references (PTgui) in order to handle the amount of shots and deciding how to handle corners that are almost always softer than the center of the frame when shooting at low F stops. I can't see Lightroom even being able to merge all the shots, let alone with any accuracy.

Panning vs Panorama vs Tracking are all different things — you can do some combinations, but not others

You can stack individual frames of a panorama panel, but you want to be quick about it. Which is why I recommend a better pano set-up than Lonely Speck recommends (no monopod tilt head for me, thanks).

As for the unsharp corners, you can do a heavy overlap (50%) and that should help.

Panning (not panoramic) and Tracking as Tom is wondering about seems incompatible to me. You set up your tracker by aligning to the stars (polaris in the northern hemisphere) and a panning head would just mess that up from the get-go.

Using a Pano (not panning) head on a tracker is doable. Take a panel shot which can be a longer exposure on a tracker; then move quickly to the next panel quickly and taking that, which can also be longer exposure since you're tracking. But you want to get from the first shot of the first row, to the last shot of the last row as quickly as possible because you tracking head is rotating.

Doing stacking on top of that is technically feasible (if you're very quick before stars get out of alignment), but it sounds iffy. I mean, if you're stacking pano frames, do you need tracking? I see people doing "tracked and stacked", but while doing a panorama on top of it?

So I see it this way:

• Stacked and tracked (no pano): yes
• Tracked panoramas (no stacking): yes
• Tracked and stacked panoramas: iffy

Adding Panning into the mix with tracking is a whole other conversation (assuming you're doing this for a resulting time-lapse video). First, it would have to be the stop-shoot-start variety of panning (otherwise, each frame would be star-streaked). Next, if it met that first qualification, it could be interesting if you don't mind that any foreground in the shot is going to rotate.

Using a panning head while making a panorama makes no sense to me at all ... unless the panning head has multi-row panorama functionality built in, which the Syrp Genie claims will be added at some point, but does not have now. But then, it would not be doing actually panning while doing the panorama function (apples to oranges).

Just to be sure:

• Panning: make small incremental changes in axis between shots, for movement in a video (time-lapse or real-time) of the end-result
• Panorama: makes large, overlapping changes in field of view between shots, to result in a single wide-view static image.

Chris

 

[Tomx72]

I wonder how much improved IQ you see with a Panorama vs a series of 4 or 5 stacked shots that are tracked. I suppose there would be a good improvement on detail shooting with a telephoto. Something tells me you really need to use the stitching software Ian references (PTgui) in order to handle the amount of shots and deciding how to handle corners that are almost always softer than the center of the frame when shooting at low F stops. I can't see Lightroom even being able to merge all the shots, let alone with any accuracy.

Actually panos could benefit greatly from the overlap: vignetting is the highest where we want overlap, meaning here we could have double stacking.

This depends, but if you want to cover the same area as your pano, you'll give up a LOT of physical aperture.

Besides, nothing is against tracked and stacked panoramas. Astronomers done that ever since photography became available. Astro-landscape vs tracking is a tricky but not impossible task either.

NotASpeckOfCereal: '"iffy" = lot of work. non-stacked a 135mm Milky way pano can easily need 100+ frames, stacked just 10each that's a thousand exposure!