Mark II not well received in Formula One

[Ulysses]

What's better is when you consistently stick to a chosen colorspace for your image capture, your editing, and for your output. It's not that the sRGB colorspace can't capture the reds that are being talked about here. It can do it.

It's not the camera.

As an example of how things can go wrong when mixing colorspaces or otherwise not processing them properly, have a look at the short writeup and samples here:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=164136&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Certainly the AdobeRGB colorspace is great to use. But not necessarily because it's wider. For a majority of applications, however, sRGB is still going to get you the color that you want. If things seem somehow muted, it's probably because the above problem.

Is it not better to go for Adobe as the color space ? I allways
thought that SRGB is a limited color space compared to adobe ?
Then again I may be talking pants !

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com

 

[Gwynn]

Tagged or bookmark is used so it will show up in your "My Threads" list.

You could just bookmark the URL! its a pain when a thread has a 150 post limit and is full of "Bookmarks"!

Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[Daffy_Duck]

That's funny because I have seen several comments from people saying the reds are oversaturated from this camera and from many images I have seen it seems to be true.

What confuses me, is just how RED and YELLOW did everyone expect
the cars to be without adjusting in-camera color settings. I bet
Canon will simply provide a quick tweak in colors which could be
done in a few seconds in Photoshop. Our eyes adjust to colors and
tweak what we see in thousandths of a second, and this goes on
without us even knowing about it.

Were the reds more of a pinkish color?

I think the camera lacks a bit of red in general. That's why the
red looks dull and the yellow misses the real punch. The Jordan's
are dark/deep yellow, and turn out too light.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[bearcat]

I have seen that as well, but I think the issue is more the accuracy of the red. Ferraris have a very deep red color, just a little darker than bright red, which is to some extent a signature color for them. (Many old Ferraris also have a darker red than this, which is closer to maroon.) From what I've seen, my guess is that the 1D Mk II showed a brighter red that was closer to the orange scale than it should have been.

This seems like a bit of a blunder for Canon, and I hope they straighten it out quickly in firmware. Canon has some of the most pleasing colors in the industry, but their accuracy could stand some improvement.

What confuses me, is just how RED and YELLOW did everyone expect
the cars to be without adjusting in-camera color settings. I bet
Canon will simply provide a quick tweak in colors which could be
done in a few seconds in Photoshop. Our eyes adjust to colors and
tweak what we see in thousandths of a second, and this goes on
without us even knowing about it.

Were the reds more of a pinkish color?

I think the camera lacks a bit of red in general. That's why the
red looks dull and the yellow misses the real punch. The Jordan's
are dark/deep yellow, and turn out too light.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[brooke]

Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[slc_rebel]

I think people to add a tagged post to bump the thread up too.

BTW, tagged.

Tagged or bookmark is used so it will show up in your "My Threads"
list.

You could just bookmark the URL! its a pain when a thread has a 150
post limit and is full of "Bookmarks"!

 

[Ulysses]

Sometimes they do. But there's no need if it's already showing up at least on the first page.

I think people to add a tagged post to bump the thread up too.

BTW, tagged.

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com

 

[julian porter]

Ok well I only got mine about a week ago and have only shot about
300 images mostly of nature shots. I have mine set at adobe rgb and
400 iso. I process the images in PS CS with it set to adobe rgb. I
print on an epson 2200 through imageprint rip on enhanced matte and
I have found all the images to be equall and mostly superior to my
10D images in every way. I don't feel I do any more tweeking to
them than I did with the 10D shots. I have a Harley that is custom
painted aztec orange which is kind of a coppery color and my subaru
is a deep red both of these come out fine. I will be at the
Montreal grand prix so I will test there but so far haven't found
this problem at all.

How about a picture of your harley & Suberau

Jules
--

Please check out my galleries both 300D and 1D Mk ll and if you have a comment please visit my guestbook . http://www.julianporter.co.uk

Julian Porter Southampton UK
Sony P9 & 717 and Canon 300D and 1D Mk ll

 

[PicOne]

Don't know what they look like, but I'm ok with the reds and yellows I'm getting. Oh.. and the AF is great at quickly picking out its target!

Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[Alex Permit]

tag, you're it

 

[santa]

the yellows you post or I post or the reds that anyone posts are not material. The issue is how exactly it matches the original. A post of a Coke can that many people can look at might be a bit better but even then various people will have differences with monitor calibration. The issue is just how accurate the colors are....

 

[santa]

was 28556650 really orange or was it red?

 

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

...since I shoot a lot of motorsports. If the F1 shooters dislike the thing, then us club racing shooters won't like it, either.

That is, if this (a) turns out to be true and (b) isn't something addressed by Canon. Although, the report indicates that Canon was right on top of things, so it probably isn't all that big a deal in the loing run.

So far, I have not seen anything about the Mk-II that makes me want to upgrade from my Mk-II yet, so it's just something else for me to keep an eye on.

Stan
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer

Once you start down the DSLR path, forever will it dominate your destiny! Consume your bank account, it will! Like it did mine!

More info and list of gear is in my Posters' Profile.

 

[Skai Hues]

It's all in the title... but with our 1Ds, super bright sun on green grass requires a different profile (in C1). -Scott

 

[paleon]

Don't know what they look like, but I'm ok with the reds and
yellows I'm getting. Oh.. and the AF is great at quickly picking
out its target!

 

[med007]

Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[Marco Miltenburg]

To follow up on this posting, I talked with CPS people from Canon last week and they say that Canon is still looking into it. They say we need to switch to AdobeRGB because the Ferrari red is not in the sRGB colorspace. I don't believe that. The Ferrari's looked great on the "old" 1D with sRGB so why wouldn't it on the new Mark II with sRGB. The fact that the Mark II has a CMOS sensor shouldn't make any difference. The camera should record the colour as it is, independant from the technology of it's imaging sensor.

I also posted some settings:

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

I've used these settings and I'm very happy with it. I got several mails from collegue photographers who asked for my settings because they liked the colours and quality of the pictures very much. I also got an e-mail from a picture editor from a big agency I work for who complemented me for the quality of the shots. It were the best Mark II shots he had seen so far. So, for the moment, I will leave it like this. I use sRGB, sharpness 3 and auto white balance, plus the above mentioned custom color matrix and parameters.

Grtz,
Marco

 

[Michel26604]

What I haven´t read so far...

We all know that the old 1D´s red were on ´turboboost´ and a bit beyond real life. Couldn´t it simply be the fact that the F1 photographers are still into the 1D reds and haven´t yet accustomed to the more realistic 1D II reds?

Here´s hoping... And then there´s the Renaults yellow of course.

--
gr. Michel
http://www.yourimage.nl

 

[santa]

you can see my coke can test in another thread and disregard it and disregard Canon's own instructions if you want but the fact is sRGB has a smaller color gamut than Adobe. If you want to use it and continue to complain, that's all well and good. And in point of fact I think there may be some color issues even with using Adobe in some situations....and...it may be that sRGB worked better in the 1D for all I know...but it is very clear to me that using sRGB will contribute to poor reds, especially if they are blown or anything close to blown, with the MKII. Maybe there will be a firmware fix or maybe there won't be (I'mm not holding my breath), and maybe all it takes is a good exposure in Adobe, but regardless of the ultimate solution or lack of a solution (buy an S2?), it's clear that shooting in sRGB is NOT the solution. All I can tell you is that I can shoot the red on a coke can and it comes out very, very nice as long as I don't overexose, in Adobe RGB. To each his own. Dunno nothing about no yellows.

What I haven´t read so far...

We all know that the old 1D´s red were on ´turboboost´ and a bit
beyond real life. Couldn´t it simply be the fact that the F1
photographers are still into the 1D reds and haven´t yet accustomed
to the more realistic 1D II reds?

Here´s hoping... And then there´s the Renaults yellow of course.

--
gr. Michel
http://www.yourimage.nl

--
Canon OneDeeMarque2,TenDee, 70-2hundred 2.8IS, 16-thirty5, 1hundred
-300 5.6EL, 28-70 f3.5- something, 50m f1point4, 1.4X convrtr, tc80EN3

 

[R Stacy]

Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco

--

© Ronn Stacy Photography ~ All illegal alien inaliable and other rights reserved.