G1 manual flash problems - a summary

[JC46960]

There are about a half a dozen threads in the forum about problems with the G1 and manual flash (possibly non-EX flashes in general - manual or A/E/TTL). This is a summary of my findings (and my recent postings, which are buried in the midst of a lengthy thread).

The Test:

I ran some tests using the G1, a Sekonic L-358 flashmeter, two Vivitar 283 flashes, a Canon 430EZ flash and a 380EX flash. All tests show that my G1 over exposes the "film" when using the camera and flashes in manual mode - regardless of what flash is being used. A test summary can be found here:

http://home.nc.rr.com/bagleyhome/Digital%20Photography.htm

Here's my original post about the test:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&page=1&message=1128523

The Phone Call:

I called Canon. The Customer Server rep said that they will only investigate the manual flash over-exposure problem if I can duplicate it with the 220EX, 380EX, 420EX or 550EX flashes. He told me that if I could duplicate my tests with one (or more) of these flashes that I could send the camera to them and they would investigate. See my other post for the details:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&page=1&message=1133330

The ReTest:

I am currently planning on re-testing using two EX series flashes. Once I complete this re-test, I will send my camera off to Canon.

I'll keep you posted...

 

[Peter T44178]

I want to make sure I understand this. If you have a problem with a Canon flash they will only hlep you if it is an EX and then only if you get another EX to duplicate the problem?

 

[JC46960]

I want to make sure I understand this. If you have a problem with a
Canon flash they will only hlep you if it is an EX and then only if
you get another EX to duplicate the problem?

Hi Peter,

I realized later that my comments about testing with two EX flashes was a bit confusing. Basically, I want to setup a "studio" with two flashes (one on either side of the camera). The reason for two flashes is that's the final setup I want, so that's what I'm testing with.

Since I only have one EX series flash, I ran some more single flash tests tonight. I used the G1, Canon TTL hot shoe adapter 3, Canon Cord 300, Canon off-camera shoe adapter 2, and a Canon 380EX. I positioned the single flash at a flash-to-subject distance adequate for a 1/125 @ 8.0 @ 100 ISO reading using the light meter. I setup the G1 in manual mode to those same numbers. I took some exposures and metered the light during the exposure (i.e. my hand and light meter were right in the middle of the picture). The flash emitted the correct amount of light, but the camera over-exposed the image.

I ran another test using the 380EX on-camera with the camera in manual mode. I diffused the flash (with two sheets of tissue paper) and metered the flash output during each exposure. I moved the camera to the correct distance to acquire the same meter reading mentioned above. This time, the camera worked fine. The exposure was correct. The manual doesn't say anything (good or bad) about using off-camera flashes. I'll call Canon again and see what their official comments are regarding off-camera flash with the G1.

 

[JC46960]

I'm digging around Canon's website looking for information on the G1's external flash capability. There's a Canon web page with links to various online reviews of the G1. The first link is to the G1 review here at dpreview.com. Here's a direct quote from Phil Askey's review ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong1/default.asp quote from Part 4 of the reivew):

"Indeed at the recent Photokina 2000 Canon were demonstrating the G1 hooked up to a studio flash system."

More web searches uncovers this page, again from dpreview.com:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00092110photokina1.asp

Note the picture of the G1 with a Hotshoe-> PC sync cord adapter. Obviously no TTL flash control here! Looks like Canon demo'd the G1 as being compatible with a studio flash system. If it only worked as advertised...

 

[Kevin Bjorke32030]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00092110photokina1.asp

Note the picture of the G1 with a Hotshoe-> PC sync cord adapter.
Obviously no TTL flash control here! Looks like Canon demo'd the
G1 as being compatible with a studio flash system. If it only
worked as advertised...

From Canon's press release: "The PowerShot G1 is fitted with an integral flash and hotshoe to extend the cameras already phenomenal photographic versatility. "

caveat emptor....

 

[Dick S]

Hi J.C.

I will probably get a L-358 later this month. Seems like the most bang for the buck.
How long have you had it and any comments (especially neg)?

I have used a similar set up (yeah with the distributor and damn cords running all over the place) for studio flash with up to four flashes using all combinations of 550EZ, two 380 EX, 200E, ML-3 and Vivitar 285HV.

Bottom line--PURE CRAP in manual mode as measured by flash meter.

I planned to use my G1 in parallel with my EOS5. The G1 has been relegated to use as a polaroid just to check shadows. My original intent, (and one of the major reasons I purchased the G1) was to get both high quality digi and 35mm using a pair of 380's (other E-TTL flash to be added later) mounted on the same cross arm on my tripod. BUT, even with two 380's in E-TTL the exposure is off (over exposure) compared to the A-TTL EOS5.

I too called Canon and they suggested my flash was bad and INSISTED that there was no problem with the G1 calibration. BUT--how come the EOS5 and BOTH flashes work super together? They finally agreed to "take a look" at it if I send it to Hanover Pk., Ill. Not sure if I will or not.

Regards,
**** S, Temecula, CA

 

[Dick S]

OOPS!
Make that a 540EZ not 550

**** S wrote:
using all combinations of 550EZ, two 380 EX, 200E, ML-3 and

 

[Michael w]

As Peter said things work correctly if you use the internal flash as optical trigger, the hot shoe might work too if we don't let the G1 know that there something is mounted on the hot shoe. So I did some tests by connecting the hot shoe terminals (center pin and side bracket) to my Vivitar 283 terminal. This prevents the external flash detection switch from being depressed. I also covered the internal flash with black electrician's tape.

What I found:

1. V 283 will not fire if internal flash is turned off.

2. V 283 will fire if internal flash is turned on. Actual shutter speed will be set at 1/250 if you set to a faster value.

3. Apperture appears to work as predicted, e.g. bright to dark bet ween full 2.0 to 8.0 range.

Entrigged, I modified the V. 283 feet, mount on the G1 to do some real tests at 1/125 and 1/250 in both manual mode and Av,Tv modes

1. In MANUAL: exposure appears to be correct on every aperture setting. I don't have the light meter so can't say for sure, but it does work well with distance rule and agrees well with auto flash setting.

2. In Av and TV: the V 283 does fire, but it does so while the shutter is closed regardless camera shutter speed. In otherword, your picture will be dark as if the flash is not there.

My conclusion:

It don't belive it's an accident that the G1 mistreats non-EX flashes in such convoluted ways. That means Canon probably will not fix the problem unless there's a lawsuit (which is unlikely). Yes, I'm convinced Canon deliberately screws it up so that advanced users will either buy the D30 or the 550EX, or both.

The idea of using a different synch cord for Manual mode and a different one for Av/Tv mode to get around comes to mind, but what would you do with the internal flash? Will the internal flash be burnt up if covered and should we care about that?

Michael

 

[Peter T44178]

I'm surprised that number 2 works when the flash detection switch is not activated. If you are going to fire the internal flash anyway, wouldn't it be easier to get a Wein Peanut optical slave for $15 and attach that to your flash? Then you have a wireless solution.

As Peter said things work correctly if you use the internal flash
as optical trigger, the hot shoe might work too if we don't let the
G1 know that there something is mounted on the hot shoe. So I did
some tests by connecting the hot shoe terminals (center pin and
side bracket) to my Vivitar 283 terminal. This prevents the
external flash detection switch from being depressed. I also
covered the internal flash with black electrician's tape.

What I found:

1. V 283 will not fire if internal flash is turned off.

2. V 283 will fire if internal flash is turned on. Actual shutter
speed will be set at 1/250 if you set to a faster value.

3. Apperture appears to work as predicted, e.g. bright to dark bet
ween full 2.0 to 8.0 range.

Entrigged, I modified the V. 283 feet, mount on the G1 to do some
real tests at 1/125 and 1/250 in both manual mode and Av,Tv modes

1. In MANUAL: exposure appears to be correct on every aperture
setting. I don't have the light meter so can't say for sure, but
it does work well with distance rule and agrees well with auto
flash setting.

2. In Av and TV: the V 283 does fire, but it does so while the
shutter is closed regardless camera shutter speed. In otherword,
your picture will be dark as if the flash is not there.

My conclusion:
It don't belive it's an accident that the G1 mistreats non-EX
flashes in such convoluted ways. That means Canon probably will
not fix the problem unless there's a lawsuit (which is unlikely).
Yes, I'm convinced Canon deliberately screws it up so that advanced
users will either buy the D30 or the 550EX, or both.

The idea of using a different synch cord for Manual mode and a
different one for Av/Tv mode to get around comes to mind, but what
would you do with the internal flash? Will the internal flash be
burnt up if covered and should we care about that?

Michael

 

[Michael w]

That's true, my motive for trying this was to see it it would fire with internal flash off, but it didn't. But this also conviced me that Canon created the crew up on purpose so I'm not holding my breath for the fix.

I don't quite understand the business card solution you previously described. How would I make it work with portable on-camera flash?

It does help to know that if you cover the internal flash (because you don't want it's light) and blow it, there's still a way out.

Michael

As Peter said things work correctly if you use the internal flash
as optical trigger, the hot shoe might work too if we don't let the
G1 know that there something is mounted on the hot shoe. So I did
some tests by connecting the hot shoe terminals (center pin and
side bracket) to my Vivitar 283 terminal. This prevents the
external flash detection switch from being depressed. I also
covered the internal flash with black electrician's tape.

What I found:

1. V 283 will not fire if internal flash is turned off.

2. V 283 will fire if internal flash is turned on. Actual shutter
speed will be set at 1/250 if you set to a faster value.

3. Apperture appears to work as predicted, e.g. bright to dark bet
ween full 2.0 to 8.0 range.

Entrigged, I modified the V. 283 feet, mount on the G1 to do some
real tests at 1/125 and 1/250 in both manual mode and Av,Tv modes

1. In MANUAL: exposure appears to be correct on every aperture
setting. I don't have the light meter so can't say for sure, but
it does work well with distance rule and agrees well with auto
flash setting.

2. In Av and TV: the V 283 does fire, but it does so while the
shutter is closed regardless camera shutter speed. In otherword,
your picture will be dark as if the flash is not there.

My conclusion:
It don't belive it's an accident that the G1 mistreats non-EX
flashes in such convoluted ways. That means Canon probably will
not fix the problem unless there's a lawsuit (which is unlikely).
Yes, I'm convinced Canon deliberately screws it up so that advanced
users will either buy the D30 or the 550EX, or both.

The idea of using a different synch cord for Manual mode and a
different one for Av/Tv mode to get around comes to mind, but what
would you do with the internal flash? Will the internal flash be
burnt up if covered and should we care about that?

Michael

 

[Kevin Bjorke32030]

Supplies:
550EX
Wein Peanut or similar optical slave trigger
PocketWizard transmitter & receiver(s)
Cardboard and Tape
Mom's Help with Scissors

Just make a small cardboard box that will contain the 550EX and the optical slave, with holes for the 550EX's hotshoe and the slave output (but not so big that unwanted light will leak out). Put the slave right in front of the 550EX's lamp. Set the 550EX to the lowest manual setting before putting it in the box. Connect the slave to the PocketWizard, which you can tape to the top of the box. Now you should have simple, pretty dependable flash triggering whenever you need it! The labor involved is relatively minimal, and only about $1100 in parts -- maybe cheaper at discount stores like CostCo -- even cheaper if you're lucky enough to find a discarded 550EX lying on the street in your neighborhood.

This may seem a little top-heavy for handheld use -- using 1/4-inch bolts from the hardware store, you can easily bolt small lead weights to the bottom of your G1 to stabilize it.

kb

Extra credit: add another hole for connecting the 550EX to a Quantum battery, so you don't have to take the box apart periodically to replace those rascally AA's.

 

[Michael w]

Thank goodness Canon hasn't taken away your sense of humor. Has anyone taken that G1 off your hand?

Michael

Supplies:
550EX
Wein Peanut or similar optical slave trigger
PocketWizard transmitter & receiver(s)
Cardboard and Tape
Mom's Help with Scissors

Just make a small cardboard box that will contain the 550EX and the
optical slave, with holes for the 550EX's hotshoe and the slave
output (but not so big that unwanted light will leak out). Put the
slave right in front of the 550EX's lamp. Set the 550EX to the
lowest manual setting before putting it in the box. Connect the
slave to the PocketWizard, which you can tape to the top of the
box. Now you should have simple, pretty dependable flash triggering
whenever you need it! The labor involved is relatively minimal, and
only about $1100 in parts -- maybe cheaper at discount stores like
CostCo -- even cheaper if you're lucky enough to find a discarded
550EX lying on the street in your neighborhood.

This may seem a little top-heavy for handheld use -- using 1/4-inch
bolts from the hardware store, you can easily bolt small lead
weights to the bottom of your G1 to stabilize it.

kb

Extra credit: add another hole for connecting the 550EX to a
Quantum battery, so you don't have to take the box apart
periodically to replace those rascally AA's.

 

[Dick S]

Hi Kevin,

You have a SUPER web site and have very helpful but this time you're a ways off base.

Supplies:
Mom's Help with Scissors

I have a problem with this as my mother passed away 10 yrs. ago.

Just make a small cardboard box that will contain the 550EX and the
optical slave

This is not a good idea. What if the box gets wet in the rain, the kids stomp on it, the dog chews it up, the cat uses it for a litter box or the wife drives over it in the car?

I plan to make one out of 1/4" 316SS plates custom welded together.

This will also allow for two squirrel cage blowers to be mounted on the sides of the box to keep the flash cool. If you had read your manuals you would know that after X amount of rapid shots we are supposed to let the flash cool down. With the G1 we may (will?) have to make many, many many etc. manual flash shots to get the properly exposed one.

This may seem a little top-heavy for handheld use -- using 1/4-inch
bolts from the hardware store, you can easily bolt small lead
weights to the bottom of your G1 to stabilize it.

Extra credit: add another hole for connecting the 550EX to a
Quantum battery

WRONG WRONG WRONG

We should use a deep draw 12v RV battery with a custom bracket (made out of non-corrosive 316SS also) mounted to the bottom of the camera. This way we don't have to worry about the lead weights-OR- the Quantum. The deep draw can power the G1, flash, blowers & etc. Makes sense Huh?

This will not be all that expensive as we can sell our flashmeters to offset the cost. We don't need them with the G1 do we?

Hope this helps.
Regards, your humble servant,
**** S, Temecula, CA

P.S.

I called Bogen (Manfrotto/Gitzo) to ask them what kind of tripod they would recommend for this set up. Within 10 min. a very nice lady from some mental health hotline called me back. Canon's cust. serv. reps should take lessons.
Sorry got to go--that must be her at the door!!!!!!

 

[Jorge47384]

It is good to see that someone is finally doing this testing. Please keep us posted on your progress. Do you also take normal pictures, when you are not testing flashes? If you have an overexposure, why can't you just decrease the exposure in manual mode and take the picture again?
Jorge

 

[Kevin Bjorke32030]

Thank goodness Canon hasn't taken away your sense of humor. Has
anyone taken that G1 off your hand?

Not yet -- I still haven't decided its replacement, maybe a 3040 or E-10. I'm not super thrilled with the 995 either.

 

[Michael w]

We've gotten past the solution phase and are now in comic phase. Don't be concerned if what we say don't make sense any more.

You're right, it's a little bright at f4.0, so I tried 5.6 and it's twice as bright. Yep, shoulda tried something in between

It is good to see that someone is finally doing this testing.
Please keep us posted on your progress. Do you also take normal
pictures, when you are not testing flashes? If you have an
overexposure, why can't you just decrease the exposure in manual
mode and take the picture again?
Jorge

 

[JC46960]

I ran some more tests last night and made a breakthrough! I found that the G1 will properly expose the image if the zoom is at 10.8 mm or higher. If the zoom is at 9.3 mm or lower, then the image will be over exposed by about four stops. Again, this is in manual mode with off-camera flash.

I have now sent my camera to Hanover Park, Illinois, for servicing. I have updated my web page to reflect the latest tests and will keep it up-to-date as I hear back from Canon.

http://home.nc.rr.com/bagleyhome/Digital%20Photography.htm

J. C.

 

[Michael w]

It's a good thing you can show the problem with a 100% Canon set up and it's also a good thing that Canon acknowledged the problem regardless the fact that your 380EX is not mounted directly on the camera. Canon should gaine a point back for that.

I don't think your statement that the problem exists regardless what camera is completely accurate, though. I personally have tested a 550EX in manual flash / manual camera mode and it works correctly in all zoom/aperture/speed settings. Unlike the 380EX, the 550 has a dedicated manual mode. It might be possible that had I left the 550 in TTL mode it would behave similarly to your 380EX.

Cross my fingers... I just hope that when they send the G1 back to you it will work with both the 380EX and the 283 (and others).

Good work!

I ran some more tests last night and made a breakthrough! I found
that the G1 will properly expose the image if the zoom is at 10.8
mm or higher. If the zoom is at 9.3 mm or lower, then the image
will be over exposed by about four stops. Again, this is in manual
mode with off-camera flash.

I have now sent my camera to Hanover Park, Illinois, for servicing.
I have updated my web page to reflect the latest tests and will
keep it up-to-date as I hear back from Canon.

http://home.nc.rr.com/bagleyhome/Digital%20Photography.htm

J. C.

 

[Richard35285]

J.C.,

I'm very impressed with the extent of your testing! I've experienced similar symptoms with my G1 but couldn't pin it down. What was it that caused you to think about the zoom setting?

A question for you (or Kevin, or Pekka), one that came up in another thread: It is claimed that the G1 in Manual Mode will fire a flash, including the E-TTL flashes, at full power. I am with the understanding that the G1 will trigger the flash at whatever setting has been selected for it, in effect just yelling "fire!". For example, the 550EX can be manually set to some fraction of full power, e.g. 1/2, 1/4, 1/16, and other settings. Can you find out what actually happens?

--rhb

I ran some more tests last night and made a breakthrough! I found
that the G1 will properly expose the image if the zoom is at 10.8
mm or higher. If the zoom is at 9.3 mm or lower, then the image
will be over exposed by about four stops. Again, this is in manual
mode with off-camera flash.

I have now sent my camera to Hanover Park, Illinois, for servicing.
I have updated my web page to reflect the latest tests and will
keep it up-to-date as I hear back from Canon.

http://home.nc.rr.com/bagleyhome/Digital%20Photography.htm

J. C.

 

[WODIN]

I've got a Canon Pro 70, but hélas no G1, but I do follow threads with interest. Why is it that one contributer to these forums, Pekka Saarinen from Finland, got some superb photos using the G1 and external flash. Chk out his "Two ladiies", huh?
*

Read Phil Askey's review of the G1 - the second opinion by Neil Turner - where Neil wrote, "I managed to fit in a few frames during the afternoon portrait session on the G1 using it on manual with Lumedyne flash units and it really impressed again."

G/Paris

There are about a half a dozen threads in the forum about problems
with the G1 and manual flash (possibly non-EX flashes in general -
manual or A/E/TTL). This is a summary of my findings (and my
recent postings, which are buried in the midst of a lengthy thread).

The Test:

I ran some tests using the G1, a Sekonic L-358 flashmeter, two
Vivitar 283 flashes, a Canon 430EZ flash and a 380EX flash. All
tests show that my G1 over exposes the "film" when using the camera
and flashes in manual mode - regardless of what flash is being
used. A test summary can be found here:

http://home.nc.rr.com/bagleyhome/Digital%20Photography.htm

Here's my original post about the test:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&page=1&message=1128523

The Phone Call:

I called Canon. The Customer Server rep said that they will only
investigate the manual flash over-exposure problem if I can
duplicate it with the 220EX, 380EX, 420EX or 550EX flashes. He
told me that if I could duplicate my tests with one (or more) of
these flashes that I could send the camera to them and they would
investigate. See my other post for the details:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&page=1&message=1133330

The ReTest:

I am currently planning on re-testing using two EX series flashes.
Once I complete this re-test, I will send my camera off to Canon.

I'll keep you posted...