Diffraction limit and D2x

No. diffraction isn't caused by position, it's caused by the size
of the opening light is going through, which is the aperture.
Moreover, the aperture blades aren't at the back of the lens, so
even if position were a critical element, it wouldn't apply here.
AFAICT, the EF-S lenses I have all have nodal points and aperture
diaphragms in about the position you'd expect on a non EF-S lens.
The size of the diffraction is related to both diaphragm size and distance between diaphragm and image plane. But if the aperture blades don't move back as the back of the lens, then this point is moot. Further, it's hard to predict how the diffraction will be, with glass element behind aperture blade.
First, as Bjorn points out further in the thread, all bets are off
with digital. On top of everything else, we have another lens in
the light path (the microlenses). There's a Nikon patent that
attempts to describe some of the interaction of what happens in the
light path and diffraction is mentioned tangentially in it. The net
is that the nice clear relationship we used to have between
aperture size and diffraction effects aren't so clear anymore.
I guess. But we do see some correlation between onset of diffraction limit and pixel density.
But beyond that, people are being deceived by the numbers. They see
12mp versus 6mp and assume that the former is "twice as good" as
the latter. Since these extra pixels are spread in two dimensions,
the resolution uptake is not 2x, but more like 1.4x. But it may not
even be that. Why? Because we've got microlenses, image circle
effects, and antialiasing filters to consider (and of course
demosaicing and JPEG rendering engines, and noise reduction
routines).
Yes.
On paper, for example, the Kodak Pro SLR/n ought to be a winner. It
doesn't have an antialising filter or microlenses and it's got 14mp
at full frame. Unfortunately, it doesn't resolve to expectations:
the noise reduction clips detail visibly, it has signficant
side-to-side issues that are resolved with software adjustments,
and don't even get me started on the JPEG engine. Most of the
Nikkors I work with are a little softer in the corners (a much more
visible problem than diffraction).

Sometimes we SHOULDN'T bother spending more for a camera with
higher pixel count. The D2x, however, is not one of those.
I have no doubt about this.

Photobug
 
f/32! This is unexpected. Ha! Guess we should put off optical theories and equations and simply follow the experiments.

Do you see images also being critical sharp above f/32?

With varies designes (microlenses, AA filter, etc.), sensor size, and resolution among DSLRs, I wonder if we'll ever see a global set of criteria. I certainly hope we do.

Thanks for the input.

Photobug
the issue isn't as simple as you might think. the pixel acts as a
local area integrator and a convolution kernel and this throws a
spanner in much of the existing theory. I have shot at f/32 with
the 50-300/4.5ED Nikkor on my D2X and the images are critically
sharp. The same setting with this lens using my F5 gave very soft
images.

DOF theory taken from film-based systems tend to fail on digital,
too. We need a new set of criteria.
 
Hasn't this whole thread got a bit confused? Diffraction is a lens property, it does not change whatever you put behind the lens. If you look at the MTF curve of a lens, it initialy improves as you stop down and then at some point diffraction effects cut in and it worsens with futher stopping down. Typically best performance for 35mm format lens is obtained roughly two stops down from full aperture holds a plateau and starts to worsen around f11. Short focal length lens have a smaller physical aperture diameters at an f number than long focal length lens at the same f number so diffraction cuts in at larger apertures with short focal lengths (hence lens on consumer digital cameras don't stop down much smaller than f8 to avoid diffraction effects). As I say diffraction is a lens property which the lens designer takes into account in designing a lens not in designing a camera.
Just thought of one thing... With pixel packed so densely in D2x,
will the diffraction limit sets in earlier? Many lens has
resolution starting to decrease from f/11 or f/16 on 6Mp APS-C
DSLR. Are we going to see the same reduction earlier on D2x?

If so this is a concern for high resolution (> 10Mp) APS-C cameras
(when there are more).

I'm not expert enough to perform calculation to verify, nor do I
own D2x to experiment. But hope someone with either can provide the
answer.

Best,
Photobug
--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
 
What I am trying to say here is that a lens has a particular MTF characteristic, how this interacts with the camera characteristics is what we are interested in; what causes that lens characteristic, astigmatism, coma, diffraction effects does not really matter to the user.
Just thought of one thing... With pixel packed so densely in D2x,
will the diffraction limit sets in earlier? Many lens has
resolution starting to decrease from f/11 or f/16 on 6Mp APS-C
DSLR. Are we going to see the same reduction earlier on D2x?

If so this is a concern for high resolution (> 10Mp) APS-C cameras
(when there are more).

I'm not expert enough to perform calculation to verify, nor do I
own D2x to experiment. But hope someone with either can provide the
answer.

Best,
Photobug
--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
 
Hasn't this whole thread got a bit confused? Diffraction is a lens
property, it does not change whatever you put behind the lens. If
you look at the MTF curve of a lens, it initialy improves as you
stop down and then at some point diffraction effects cut in and it
worsens with futher stopping down. Typically best performance for
35mm format lens is obtained roughly two stops down from full
aperture holds a plateau and starts to worsen around f11. Short
focal length lens have a smaller physical aperture diameters at an
f number than long focal length lens at the same f number so
diffraction cuts in at larger apertures with short focal lengths
(hence lens on consumer digital cameras don't stop down much
smaller than f8 to avoid diffraction effects). As I say diffraction
is a lens property which the lens designer takes into account in
designing a lens not in designing a camera.
I understand what you're saying. A lot people get confused in these discussions b/c people aren't careful in their wording.

Here's the issue: Consider an X MP APS-C sensor and an X MP 24x36 sensor. Assume both have the same noise performance and are used with ideal lenses.

Both sensors have the same number of pixels, but the pixels are smaller in the APS-C sensor. Therefore, the blur created by diffraction is a larger percentage of the total image and as we increase X, diffraction starts to limit the gains in observed resolution earlier in the smaller sensor.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The blurring effect of diffraction is not the nice Gaussian curve but more like sinc function- simimlar round center but also rings further away from center. So I won't expect it to be a good replacement for real AA filter. But I guess indeed similar effect can be achieved due to the similar diffusion effects near center.

Photobug
And with the AA filter 'adding' to softness ... hey, that makes me
think: at what point (f/ratio-wise) does image 'smear' from
diffraction make an AA filter useless? Depends on the AA filter,
but perhaps the manufacturers have made the problem moot. I wish it
were a 'flip up' item, although looking at my camera bodies I note
there is no space for that.
I typically shoot at f/11-f/16 in the studio; on a 1D, diffraction
is not noticable at f/16, with the same lens on a Mk. II, softness
creeps in, tiny, yet noticable. (Could be camera differences, I
know!)
Ken
 
Yes.

All the smoke about digital vs. film does not pertain to the question originally asked.

Whoever skipped Reading 101 please raise you hand.

Wayne
Just thought of one thing... With pixel packed so densely in D2x,
will the diffraction limit sets in earlier? Many lens has
resolution starting to decrease from f/11 or f/16 on 6Mp APS-C
DSLR. Are we going to see the same reduction earlier on D2x?

If so this is a concern for high resolution (> 10Mp) APS-C cameras
(when there are more).

I'm not expert enough to perform calculation to verify, nor do I
own D2x to experiment. But hope someone with either can provide the
answer.

Best,
Photobug
--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
 
Hasn't this whole thread got a bit confused? Diffraction is a lens
property, it does not change whatever you put behind the lens. If
you look at the MTF curve of a lens, it initialy improves as you
stop down and then at some point diffraction effects cut in and it
worsens with futher stopping down. Typically best performance for
35mm format lens is obtained roughly two stops down from full
aperture holds a plateau and starts to worsen around f11. Short
focal length lens have a smaller physical aperture diameters at an
f number than long focal length lens at the same f number so
diffraction cuts in at larger apertures with short focal lengths
(hence lens on consumer digital cameras don't stop down much
smaller than f8 to avoid diffraction effects). As I say diffraction
is a lens property which the lens designer takes into account in
designing a lens not in designing a camera.
I understand what you're saying. A lot people get confused in
these discussions b/c people aren't careful in their wording.

Here's the issue: Consider an X MP APS-C sensor and an X MP 24x36
sensor. Assume both have the same noise performance and are used
with ideal lenses.

Both sensors have the same number of pixels, but the pixels are
smaller in the APS-C sensor. Therefore, the blur created by
diffraction is a larger percentage of the total image and as we
increase X, diffraction starts to limit the gains in observed
resolution earlier in the smaller sensor.
I see your point, smaller sensor, shorter focal length lens, smaller physical aperture, diffraction limiting becomes apparent at larger apperrtures. Thats the reason I don't think all those coolpix cameras stop down much below f8; certainly my Panasonic DMC-LC5 which has a 7-21mm f2 zoom and a 1/1.76" sensor will not stop down below f8.
--
Dave
http://www.rosser.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/dgrosser
 
Wayne is correct about the laws of physics, but an actual test might be helpful to illustrate the principle. I determined the MTF 50 of my 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor mounted on my D70 with Imitest (a program by Norman Koren). According to Norman, MTF 50 (modulation transfer functiion at 50 percent contrast) is a good measure of percieved image sharpness.

The results are posted graphically. MTF falls off significantly as one goes from f/11 to f/16. According to Wayne's analysis, one would see this degree of degradation with the D2X at f/8. This diffraction limitatiion along with the greater noise associated with small pixels does limit the D2X.

http://bjanes.smugmug.com/gallery/438435

Norman has a good discussion of this topic here:

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF6.html#MTF_equations
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=12644474

Wayne
Just thought of one thing... With pixel packed so densely in D2x,
will the diffraction limit sets in earlier? Many lens has
resolution starting to decrease from f/11 or f/16 on 6Mp APS-C
DSLR. Are we going to see the same reduction earlier on D2x?

If so this is a concern for high resolution (> 10Mp) APS-C cameras
(when there are more).

I'm not expert enough to perform calculation to verify, nor do I
own D2x to experiment. But hope someone with either can provide the
answer.

Best,
Photobug
--
Bill Janes
 
Assuming away the other problems with smaller pixels, the only
negative in terms of diffraction is that you don't get the full
benefit of the extra sensor resolution at smaller apertures.

Diffraction never gets worse with smaller pixels. Diffraction just
prevents you from enjoying the full benefits of higher resolution
with small apertures.
Yup. I also wonder if perhaps Nikon considered this when specing their AA filter for this sensor. Perhaps a less aggressive AA filter makes more sense considering the greater likelihood of resolution being limited by the lens quality or a higher f-number.

BTW, f/11 on the D2X sensor can still deliver a 50% MTF response at the estimated sensor resolution (around 70 lp/mm). So it seems likely that excellent optics will deliver very sharp images up to f/11 and only after that will you begin to see some softening. At around f/22, diffraction limits resolution to slightly more than what the sensor probably can resolve. So past f/22, you will certainly reduce resolution. But between f/11 and f/22 you will probably see a softening of detail (a poorer MTF response) that can be compensated for to some degree through more aggressive sharpening.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
f/32! This is unexpected. Ha! Guess we should put off optical
theories and equations and simply follow the experiments.

Do you see images also being critical sharp above f/32?
Be careful. Bjorn did not defined l what he means when he says critically sharp. If he is printing an 8x10, then I have little reason to doubt he could make a critically shapr print from an image shot at f/32. Nor did he compare sharpness to the same situation with a smaller f-number. I somehow doubt that fundamental laws of diffraction are ready to be tossed aside. We may, however, find our practical experience with diffraction effects when using digital sensors to not translate directly to what we saw with film. It would be interesting to see the MTF response of a digital sensor compared to that of some typical films.

f/32 delivers a Rayleigh limit of around 51 lp/mm. The D2x probably resolves very close to 72 lp/mm while its sensor site spacing implies a resolution of 89 lp/mm.

I see no way that a sensor can reintegrate information that has already been lost due to diffraction. But I'm not an optical expert so I won't claim that as absolutely the case. However, I wouldn't bet any money that f/32 on a D2x ever yields an image that resolves to the limit of the camera's resolution. It should always fall a bit short of that.

And this doesn't mean I even disagree with Bjorn's assertion that his f/32 image was "critically sharp". And it could very well be the case that f/32 is exactly the best aperture to use in some particular situation. But I think it is important to more fully understand what Gjorn means before tossing out optical theories that are well established.
With varies designes (microlenses, AA filter, etc.), sensor size,
and resolution among DSLRs, I wonder if we'll ever see a global set
of criteria. I certainly hope we do.
Perhaps eventually, cameras will be tested based on performance in resolved lines. Phil does that to a fair extent now.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Yes. But from the start, obtaining the full resolution advantages
of higher pixel count was assumed to be the goal. Otherwise, why
bother spending more on DSLR with higher pixel count?
First, as Bjorn points out further in the thread, all bets are off
with digital.
OK. Here's my bet. The Nikon D2x will test out to have a resolution of 72 lp/mm. This will equate to about 2200 LPH (horizontally) in Phil's review. Based on past experiences, this should be accurate to within about + or - 5% (I know of one result that fell outside this range). I would be very surprised if the actual tested resolution exceeded 2300 or dropped below 2100. Time will tell.

So Thom, I'll bet $20 with you that all bets aren't really off. :)

BTW, the Kodak DCS Pro SLR/c that was tested by Phil came in at 2400 LPH (horizontally). Using the 80% of implied resolution as I did above, I would have predicted 2432 LPH.

The simple fact is that there is a very strong correlation between resolvable lines and pixel count. It hovers around 80% of the implied resolution based on pixel count for APS-C and larger sensors. Its a pretty solid link and seems to be broken only by major departures from sensor design (with one exception so far - the Canon 1Ds) such as the Fuji diagonal array and the X3 sensor design. For smaller sensors, the number hovers around 70%.

Anyway, that's my bet and my prediction.
On top of everything else, we have another lens in
the light path (the microlenses). There's a Nikon patent that
attempts to describe some of the interaction of what happens in the
light path and diffraction is mentioned tangentially in it. The net
is that the nice clear relationship we used to have between
aperture size and diffraction effects aren't so clear anymore.
An unexplained tangental remark about diffraction supports what? It certainly does not make any case that the realtionship between aperture and diffration have become unclear. Besides, there never was a "nice clear" relationship to begin with. The quality of the optics involved has always been a complicating factor.
But beyond that, people are being deceived by the numbers. They see
12mp versus 6mp and assume that the former is "twice as good" as
the latter. Since these extra pixels are spread in two dimensions,
the resolution uptake is not 2x, but more like 1.4x. But it may not
even be that.
Right. Though that number is probably about right.
Why? Because we've got microlenses, image circle
effects, and antialiasing filters to consider (and of course
demosaicing and JPEG rendering engines, and noise reduction
routines).
Its nice to list all the potential variables, but we should also remember that the various sensor and camera makers have not demonstrated that they have any huge edge in any of these areas. So it is very likely that we will get very predictable results.

I suspect the degree of deviance from expected resolution figures is as much due to the subjective nature of interpretting a resolution chart as they are from real differences in sharpness. It is often hard to see differences unless special test images are taken. So even if I'm wrong and the D2X is 10% better or worse than expected, the visual impact of such a difference will be small, representing only one fourth of the 40% improvement implied by pixel count.

The visual differences in real world images will almost surely be about what reasonable people experienced with digital cameras would suspect. Noticably better than a 6Mp if you begin making large prints (similar results as compared to 6Mp cameras when printed 40% larger), but not that much better at the smaller sizes.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Ron,

Yes, according to my test, the optimum apertures are between f/2.8 and f/5.6. I looked at your pBase tests on the D60 and bookmarked your faq.

Roger Clark discusses the size of the diffraction spot and resolution at the Rayleigh and Dawes limits, but these do not seem that useful for digital photography, where resolution is limited by the Nyquist frequency of the sensor, around 64 lp/mm for the Canon D60 and Nikon D70.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/scandetail.html#diffraction

The size of the diffraction spot is of some interest. It is 14.8 microns at f/11, 20.7u at f/16, 28.5u at f/22, and 41.4u at f/32. Since the pixel size of the D70 is 7.8 microns, it is apparent that these large diffraction spots would cover several pixels and blur the image. Unfortunately, I don't know how to relate the MTF50 to the diffraction spot, but Roger has a graphic representation on his web site. Since you seem to be pretty knowledgable, perhaps you can shed some light on this topic.

It is true that the D2X sensor sees the same image as the D70 and the image would be at least as good as that of the D70 for any given aperture, but I would hope that after paying 4 times as much for the D2X, it would be considerably better. To realize this potential, I would think that one would have to use apertures larger than f/8.

--
Bill Janes
Just to be clear: You might start to see the degradation at f/8,
but the D2X should be at least as good at all apertures.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Nice plot! This matches well with my experience with D70 and various lenses- onset of diffraction effects starting after f/11.

So if one do the same test on D2x, the onset of diffraction effects will be after f/8. Had there been a 24Mp APS-C, it would be f/5.6.

Guess I should mention that these estimates are for achieving the max. possible resolution of each sensor. One should still expect a 24Mp sensor to resolve more at f/8 than 12Mp one at f/8. Just that the difference will be less than 40% as in the difference in lateral and vertical resolutions. But this is also assuming the lens is not the limiting factor in resolution for 24Mp sensor (ideally about 120lp/mm) which, by itself is not true either for most lenses.

I want a 12Mp DSLR. But after these analyses, anyone fancy a 24Mp APS-C DSLR?

I don't propose FF DSLR as a savior either as I don't expect their prices to ever come down to prosumer level due to production cost of a FF sensor.

So, considering the trade off, I would say the sensor in D2x appears to be the ultimate as far as resolution goes. The only thing left to improve for the future versions are noise and peripheral features (just for the sake of progress).

BTW, Norman's site is a wonderful resource for anything photography. Everyone should read it.

Photobug
Wayne is correct about the laws of physics, but an actual test
might be helpful to illustrate the principle. I determined the MTF
50 of my 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor mounted on my D70 with Imitest (a
program by Norman Koren). According to Norman, MTF 50 (modulation
transfer functiion at 50 percent contrast) is a good measure of
percieved image sharpness.

The results are posted graphically. MTF falls off significantly as
one goes from f/11 to f/16. According to Wayne's analysis, one
would see this degree of degradation with the D2X at f/8. This
diffraction limitatiion along with the greater noise associated
with small pixels does limit the D2X.

http://bjanes.smugmug.com/gallery/438435

Norman has a good discussion of this topic here:

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF6.html#MTF_equations
 
Nice plot! This matches well with my experience with D70 and
various lenses- onset of diffraction effects starting after f/11.

So if one do the same test on D2x, the onset of diffraction effects
will be after f/8. Had there been a 24Mp APS-C, it would be f/5.6.

Guess I should mention that these estimates are for achieving the
max. possible resolution of each sensor. One should still expect a
24Mp sensor to resolve more at f/8 than 12Mp one at f/8. Just that
the difference will be less than 40% as in the difference in
lateral and vertical resolutions. But this is also assuming the
lens is not the limiting factor in resolution for 24Mp sensor
(ideally about 120lp/mm) which, by itself is not true either for
most lenses.

I want a 12Mp DSLR. But after these analyses, anyone fancy a 24Mp
APS-C DSLR?

I don't propose FF DSLR as a savior either as I don't expect their
prices to ever come down to prosumer level due to production cost
of a FF sensor.

So, considering the trade off, I would say the sensor in D2x
appears to be the ultimate as far as resolution goes. The only
thing left to improve for the future versions are noise and
peripheral features (just for the sake of progress).

BTW, Norman's site is a wonderful resource for anything
photography. Everyone should read it.

Photobug
Yes, it would appear that Nikon is nearing the limit of the APS sized sensor with the D2X. Since the smaller sensor has greater depth of field, one doesn't have to stop down as much but noise is still a problem.
--
Bill Janes
 
Yes, it would appear that Nikon is nearing the limit of the APS
sized sensor with the D2X. Since the smaller sensor has greater
depth of field, one doesn't have to stop down as much but noise is
still a problem.
Not really. I'm not at all sure there is any fundamental agreement on what a reasonable limite would be. If a person is OK with taking a most of their images at relatively larger apertures, there is plenty of room for more pixel density. Especially if the images are generally taken in good light which means that they can use a lower ISO and avoid the noise with tends to appear with smaller sensor sites. And if you choose to stop down for increased DOF you simply lose some resolution that you wouldn't otherwise have anyway with a lower resolution sensor.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
to cater to that elitist group? The same group that USED Ektar25, Kodachrome25, Agfapan25 and Technical PAN in film cameras. Get my drift?
APS is close to the end as far as resolution is concerned.

Wayne
Yes, it would appear that Nikon is nearing the limit of the APS
sized sensor with the D2X. Since the smaller sensor has greater
depth of field, one doesn't have to stop down as much but noise is
still a problem.
Not really. I'm not at all sure there is any fundamental agreement
on what a reasonable limite would be. If a person is OK with
taking a most of their images at relatively larger apertures, there
is plenty of room for more pixel density. Especially if the images
are generally taken in good light which means that they can use a
lower ISO and avoid the noise with tends to appear with smaller
sensor sites. And if you choose to stop down for increased DOF you
simply lose some resolution that you wouldn't otherwise have anyway
with a lower resolution sensor.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Let us assume that we are going to take the same picture and look at the same sized print. The smaller sensor image has to be magnified more to get to the same sized print as from the larger sensor. Thus the diffraction circle has to be smaller for the smaller sensor so that, after magnification, it is the same size as the larger sensor diffractions circle. This is in addition to considerations related to pixel size. The pixels in the smaller sensor do have to be smaller to resolve the smaller diffractions circle.
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
 

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