d10 front focuses PROOF!!

[Jack A. Zucker]

You sound the same as when you were over on your uncle's site
causing trouble.

JAck, you've been rather nasty from the gitgo but that's you, I
guess.

And when you can't back up your viewpoint, try diversionary tactics.

What's any of your diatribe have to do with someone's right to
express dissatisfaction with their canon DSLR in a canon DSLR forum?

--
http://www.jackzucker.com

--
http://www.jackzucker.com

 

[Jack A. Zucker]

bill jones wrote:
my original post
""10d front focuses proof"
i don't understand why people interpret this
as "all 10d front focuses proof"

It's always been like that here. Anytime anyone posts anything negative about a camera, folks who have a properly functioning camera jump in and berate the guy having problems. It's an interesting phenomenon. My guess is that folks unwittingly take it as an insult as if they're stupid for buying a camera that might have problems.

Same thing happened to me when I posted about my original problems and the same thing has happened to virtually every posting I've seen regarding 10d problems.

Funny how folks chime in with "get over it" when they can't do so themselves.

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com

 

[Charles Lott]

Hello Bill,

I have noticed the same issue you point out. In my case I was shooting some portraits and I noticed the background was in focus and the subject was not. I purchased my camera from a local shop. I took it in and we used your ruler methodology with good results. In my case there is a problem with the lens - a Tokina AF 20-35,mm F2.8 Pro. We changed to a Canon 17-35 mm and it focuses properly.

Thanks for the great suggestion on a simple way to separate the sheep from the goats with this issue.

Best regards,

Charlie

bill jones wrote:
my original post
""10d front focuses proof"
i don't understand why people interpret this
as "all 10d front focuses proof"
but anyway after much testing i have confirmed and indeed i have
a problem and will be sending my camera back to canon
i still would be interested and i am sure many others as well as to
know how
wide spread this problem is. Most people may not notice their
camera has a flaw
because DOF may correct for the focusing errors and unless you are
shooting
wide open it may not always be apperant. in fact many of my photos
were outstanding
however a few seemed out of focus which seemed unusual to me since
i am an experienced slr film shooter and have not had significant
problems before. So i investigated further and sure enough there
is a flaw in MY camera. Worst of all th eflaw is inconsistent The
value of this post is many of u may have the same problem and may
have not noticed YET it may be wise to test your camera since it
can be fixed for free or returned if you are within the warranty or
return time. Some of you may find indeed you have the same problem
and may thank me for drawing your attention to it. Others who do
not have this problem may feel comforted that they do not have to
suffer. No one likes to dish out $1500+ tax and receive a
lemon. As far a $1500 go this is still exspensive at least for me
and for this price i expect quality.

 

[DavidP #28649]

I haven't called Canon this morning.

Yes, that's all true, but as far as your telephone conversation with
the Canon service technician this morning, I think a lot of us truly
couldn't care less anymore.

You have far exceeded your allotted quota of whining.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

 

[DavidP #28649]

Forget that.

If you really want to see it, try 85mm at f/1.2

Or 135mm at f/2

f/4.5? That can hide a lot of misfocusing.

You won't see the focusing issue unless you go up to F2.8 @ 80mm.
as this guy has suggested.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

 

[DavidP #28649]

Actually, the camera doesn't normally focus in exactly the same place each time. There IS an "allowable error" built into the AF (there has to be).

just repeated the test using a tripod and timer
interesting two pictures were taken in succesion
with no changes in postion oor camera setting
one picture demonstrates perfect focus and one demonstrates front
focus
now i understand why some of my pictures withthis camera are
perfect and some are out of focus. again for both of these pictures
i focused on the 20 actually only on the first one
the second was just a repeat exposure with nothing changed.
http://www.pbase.com/image/15504006
http://www.pbase.com/image/15504113

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

 

[DavidP #28649]

If you're going to test for mis-focusing, you MUST do it at a large aperture.

There's no point in testing it at f/16.

--
Bill:
I don't know what your photography experiecne is but...Do you know
that a camera lens has its least depth of field at full aperature?
Such as an f1.8 lens opened to f1.8. Have you tried setting you
your camera on a tripod, using a small f stop like f16 and even try
manual focusing. I'll bet you will see a BIG BIG difference.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

 

[The Raven]

I backed up my point of view. I just pointed out how nasty YOU get when confronted. The first time, you made up a name for me and this time, you change my name slightly. NOW, if I wanted to go as low as YOU, I could change up YOUR name very slightly and have LOTS of fun but that's not the kind of person I am. I try to stick to the facts and not get into insult matches.

 

[The Raven]

You won't see the focusing issue unless you go up to F2.8 @ 80mm.
as this guy has suggested.

I don't have a lens that will do that so I used the 24-85 len's maximum aperture (as I stated in my infomation) at full zoom which will render no DOF which is equivalent to what he did. The lighting I used was quite a bit less than he used to which increases the difficulty for the camera to focus. All I'm trying to say is that not ALL these cameras have a problem. Some do, many don't. People read this sort of thing and it scares them away from a truly nice camera at a heck of a good price. Either that or they start worrying about it if they already have one and they don't have fun with it anymore.

 

[The Raven]

F4.5 at that angle! a joke here.

You don't understand photography. Hugo... I'm using a zoom lens which has a maximum aperture ( this means it's WIDEST) of f/4.5 at 85mm. This is it's maximum aperture and I'm shooting at full zoom close up. This is where it has the least quality image and practically no depth of field. As you can see, the "20" is the sharpest number on the ruler and the others get softer in both directions. I focused on the bottom of the card and not the ruler so as to not chance the focusing spot picking up the other numbers thereby giving a FAIR test. If there's a joke here, it's not intentional and only you seem to get it.

 

[The Raven]

"Misery Loves Company" and these few people won't be happy until EVERYONE has a problem with their camera.

 

[Kev King]

It seems this discussion will still be going on long after we're all dead and burried and Canon digital 2,000 MP cameras will shoot themselves without any need for a human photographer.... so I may as well chime in. ;-)

I was one of those people who had "problems" with my Nikon D100. I found work arounds for most of it, but still, I really wished I'd had a "good one" vise a potential lemon. So I know exactly how you feel. However, clearly the problem wasn't THAT bad or I would have returned it. (I never even sent mine in for service, so it must not have been that bad).

Having said that... let's use some comon sense here... I've seen a lot of the "test" shots showing bad focus. Some of them do indeed look very bad, and thus, some cameras that need to be sent back. I'm sure out of the massive number produced, at least a few people got cameras that would not power up, or that would not auto focus at all, or whatever... obvious defects that were promptly returned.

Let's assume for a minute that this focus issue really is as bad as some people are talking it up to be. Would Canon have KNOWINGLY released thousands and thousands of units that, quite frankely, had AF that was not usable? Directed at the advanced amature market, these are people dipping deep into their own pockets (which are the same pockets used to feed their kids, vise thier professional business budget as in the "pro" market 1Ds and such). This target market is generally VERY pickey about getting every penny of quality out of an expensive purchase like this, I certainly am.

If this is true, then Canon would have gotten a virtual fire storm of a backlash having sold thousands of defective units. Also, being that this is their "second generation" D-SLR, they really have a lot riding on this product. This will be the first digital that MANY MANY MANY people will purchase, given it's near film performance and affordable street price. If it's a massive failure, it will cost Canon a huge piece of market share, and countless millions of $$ over the next few years. They know this.

By the sound of it, many people honestly think they were ready to ship the first units, realized the AF doesn't work, and said "Oh, don't worry about it... nobody will notice." I think that's a bit far fetched.

The simple moral of all of this... It simply does not make any sense at all that a significant number of these cameras are defective. Some of you have units that are not focusing properly, thus a defect that in all probabillity is only present in less than 5% of all produced units (even 5% is high). What would you do if you opened your camera to find the mirror was shattered and rattling around the internals of the camera? You would cuss about it, make a post here on the forum to let us know you had bad luck in getting one of the units that fell off the delivery truck, and finally... you would send it back, of course, and get one of the majority that don't have shattered mirrors.

So send it back, get it repaired, do what you have to do and just get it corrected. Trying to scare others out of their purchase isn't going to fix the defective unit you own... right?

ps - my 10D should be here in a couple weeks, crossing my fingers and hoping I'm right in this logic, and that it won't come back to bite me in the a$$. ;-)

 

[bill jones]

glad i could help
on my way to send iin my camera
i will keep everyone posted i also have a hot pixel
so hope they can fix that too
ps
one obeservation
canon custmer care is no weher near the level of apple's

recently had a laptop go bad called apple they took a detailed history sent me a box overnight to put my computer in with prpaid overnight return shipping to apple

received the box on monday put my computer in the box airborne express picked it up that night (monday) my computer was sent back to me wednesday in perfect working order at no charge to me that's a 3 day turnaround and apple covered all the shipping.

canon not only told me it was my responsibility to pay the shipping on their defective product.. in addition i asked canon how they would know its my camera and where to send it back they told me just write your name on a piece of paper and place it in the box with your camera seems pretty unefficient compared to apple who gave me a dispatch number and also asked for my serial number over the phone.

 

[Rick Graham]

One thing to consider, though -- there are lots of little marks for
the camera to try to AF on. I'm assuming that where the focus
plane actually is, that area wasn't under the AF sensor at all?

If you go into Canon's software (was this shot RAW?), you can show
where the AF sensors were located superimposed on the image.

Can you show a shot of that?

Every once in a while, these cameras have mis-adjusted AF that will
cause this, even in broad daylight (at least you tested in
daylight).

If so, Canon can fix it.

they are cropped so they can fit in the free photo gallery!!
the numbers were in the center!!!

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

--
[email protected]

 

[tim martin]

It's always been like that here. Anytime anyone posts anything
negative about a camera, folks who have a properly functioning
camera jump in and berate the guy having problems. It's an
interesting phenomenon.

I think it is all quite normal. That is, this isn't "Anytime anyone
posts anything". This is the 25th time somebody has posted the
same thing, and naturally it's starting to becoming annoying for
some.

In truth, I won't have my 10D until Friday, and so there's a chance
I will have the same problem. Although I think there's also a good
chance that WON'T have a problem. Either way, unless I have some
specfic new question, I won't be posting my picture of a ruler in
here.

Lasty, I see Bill Jones mentioing that he will keep everyone posted
with the result of his camera's trip to the Service Center. That's
fine with me. He obviously can do whatever he wants. But if he is
a bit busy, and doesn't get a chance to let everybody in here
know what happened, that's also fine with me. I won't be sitting
here on the edge of my chair waiting to hear what happened.

 

[bill jones]

yes canon would release cameras with a problem

1) they produces 1000 of cameras in one production run before they realize there may be a problem it is to late

example many time the first run of a new lap top will have a problem that was overlooked

example dvd unit makes noise (true story) the first run all the laptops had this problem read about it on a forum company never admited there was a problem repaired all the faulty drives and on the next production run changed the drive manufacture

2) canon knows if indeed this is a widespread problem( which at this time we don't know it may be a few cameras or it may be many) that most users probably won't notice it or think its normal behavior for this camera. if they were to announce there was a problem it would be much more costly to the comany not only in repairs but in possible lost sales
almost all companies operate under this policy
example just bought a 2003 330 BMW convertible had trouble with the heat

at first i thought it was just me heat was always on too hot. brought it in and the dealer who i am friends with showed me a bulliten from bmw stating that cars of my model produced in a certain month have a programming error in the climate control

the bulliten states only repair if the custumer notices the problem why didn't bmw let all the people who purchased this car model from this production run know about this problem(recall) $$$$ cost unless there is a saftey issue they won't have a recall

can u imagine canon announcing the first 10,000 10Dhave a focus problem (hypothetical)

this would result in a major financial loss to the company especially since maybe if it is not severe only 200 people would notice

 

[hm]

Try doing this test with a series of flat surfaces that are perpendicular to the lens, which are large enough to clearly fully contain the "focus point", and which have sufficient detail to provide some contrast for AF. The sides of cereal boxes could be used, or some film canisters. Either put these at varying distances from the camera or lay them out in a perfect line, and then shoot from an angle.

The problem with the "ruler test" is that it's difficult to really ensure where the focus point is focusing on, and how the AF is going to lock. Providing a broad perpendicular surface clears up some of these ambiguities.

Also, put the camera on a tripod, use the lowest ISO, select the middle focus point, use the widest aperture on the lens, provide plenty of ambient light, etc.

I've done this sort of test with my D60, no doubt inspired by the flood of "My D60 front focuses" cries that, a few months ago, were only interrupted by the "My D60 rear focuses" cries. Try as I might, my D60 never did anything but focus spot on the right target.
-harry

 

[Jack A. Zucker]

I think it is all quite normal. That is, this isn't "Anytime anyone
posts anything". This is the 25th time somebody has posted the
same thing, and naturally it's starting to becoming annoying for
some.

Except that if you go back and read the older messages and you'll see that even the first guys posting about this problem received similar treatment. It's a nice analysis but it just doesn't prove out.

Jaz

--
http://www.jackzucker.com

 

[bill jones]

the tests were done on a tripod at the lowest asa settings
the focus point was constant since i selected the camera to only use the
center focus bracket in addition focus varried over several shots taken in the
exact same conditions. the camera has been fedex back to canon i will keep

everyone posted. my gut feeling which is only a guess is that this problem is more widespread than we think

i am starting to feel canon has a quality control problem dont beleive me check out
this recent thread
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4877068

 

[The Raven]

Forget that.

If you really want to see it, try 85mm at f/1.2

Or 135mm at f/2

f/4.5? That can hide a lot of misfocusing.

Are you kind of getting the feeling that some of the REAL problem is surfacing? I know I am. ;-)