Beating the pro

[Bill_Turner]

My wedding is coming up next year, and I just hope I dont get a
photographer anywhere near as egotistical and arrogant as you.

On such a personal day, I'm more concerned about getting a
photographer who can capture the moment, an expression, or the
emotion of the event than one who has spent thousands and done
years of training.

To me, photography is a mixture of ability and art - some people
can have all the technical ability in the world but have no flair.
Others are just born with this "knack" for capturing a moment in
time, they may have limited technical ability but are full-fledged
artists.

--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

--

Well I did an average 0f 50 weddings a year. I have hundreds of
references from brides. I have never had one complain. What do
you know about my ability? The reason I did my homework and spend
years to get properly trained is to provide my CUSTOMER with the
highest quality, most afordable product in my area.

This allowed me to capture the moment in a nonintrusive manor both
for formals and photojournalist all done with the latest technical
knowledge, best equipment I could buy and the little bit of talent
my GOD gave me. I hired only the best photographers in the area
for second/bw photographers. Limited technical ability will not get
you what you want.
But from your note you will never, never, ever have me for a wedding
photographer you have flunked my first interview.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

And that feature, at the bottom of the reply screen is titled "Preview." With it, one can "preview" his/her message prior to posting. I think that the "preview" would be best made as a default prior to posting so that we can read our remarks, perhaps reflect on what's being stated and mostly, edit any grammatical or spelling errors that were typed in the "heat of the moment."

As you are in the Tampa Bay area, one can assume that you have an understanding of the English/American language.

Based on your posts here at the DPReview Forum you would never, ever be considered to make any photographs for me.
Walt, take heed to your own message: "Let the light in!"

--
Regards,
(afka Wile E. Coyote)
Bill
PSAA
Equipment in profile.

 

[Joseph_Farrugia]

....it may be interpreted as if the original poster wanted to embark on a mental masturbatory fantasy to relieve a chip off his shoulder.

I'm missing the point (read: usefullness) of this thread.

Sure, there are people who produce better images than others.

There are also people who are also better in SELLING their services to others. (those are the real pros, btw).

The real pros have to deliver no matter what. That have to get the job, do the job, get paid, get another job...

That's why I sometimes miss being an amateur....

Best regards to all,

--
JF

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Is it REALLY that hard to believe that some of the non-pros can
equal or better the hired help?

I have a friend who runs a wedding photography business. His work
(and those of the shooters who work for him) are AMAZING. I went
on a shoot with him and he included a couple of my shots in his
presentation to the client -- didn't have my "pro gear" at the time.

Anyway -- there's NO WAY I can outshoot this guy. Not now....not
for a long time. Then again, he's a high end wedding photographer
-- second generation, grew up in the business and now runs it.

On the other hand -- I can CERTAINLY do better than the pro we
hired 14 years ago that did OUR wedding.

All pros are not equal. And frankly, there are some rather
talented shooters who just don't happen to shoot for a living.

Lee

 

[Joseph_Farrugia]

My wedding is coming up next year, and I just hope I dont get a
photographer anywhere near as egotistical and arrogant as you.

\nat, are you ok? Well let me answer that: no, you ain't.

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion? Where did you meet this guy?

Your post bears a typical trollish attiude, Nat.

Calm down & take a cold shower.

--
JF

 

[Michael Long]

But that's NOT the whole story about the value of professional
photographers.

It's simple really, one hires a pro because the pro has the knowledge and experience and tools needed to do the job.

Given today's high levels of camera automation, you're correct that, on a good day, a gifted amateur will probably be able to pull off a shoot and get decent images. Heck, those images might even look better than the pros.

But let's say you're the amateur sitting there with a 300D and a 28-135 expecting to shoot an glorious outdoor wedding, a bit nervous, however, since the other guy that was going to back you up never showed.

Suddenly, it begins to rain. The cermony is rushed inside. The power goes out, so the bride decides to continue on in the dark church by candlelight. The minister informs you that flash isn't allowed in church (which doesn't matter since you didn't bother to charge it's batteries for an outdoor wedding). You also notice that your 28-135 zoom no longer does. The bride starts down the aisle...

A good pro can take all of that in stride, and still get the shots needed to make his client happy.

 

[wgc]

My wedding is coming up next year, and I just hope I dont get a
photographer anywhere near as egotistical and arrogant as you.

On such a personal day, I'm more concerned about getting a
photographer who can capture the moment, an expression, or the
emotion of the event than one who has spent thousands and done
years of training.

To me, photography is a mixture of ability and art - some people
can have all the technical ability in the world but have no flair.
Others are just born with this "knack" for capturing a moment in
time, they may have limited technical ability but are full-fledged
artists.

--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

--

Well I did an average 0f 50 weddings a year. I have hundreds of
references from brides. I have never had one complain. What do
you know about my ability? The reason I did my homework and spend
years to get properly trained is to provide my CUSTOMER with the
highest quality, most afordable product in my area.

This allowed me to capture the moment in a nonintrusive manor both
for formals and photojournalist all done with the latest technical
knowledge, best equipment I could buy and the little bit of talent
my GOD gave me. I hired only the best photographers in the area
for second/bw photographers. Limited technical ability will not get
you what you want.
But from your note you will never, never, ever have me for a wedding
photographer you have flunked my first interview.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

And that feature, at the bottom of the reply screen is titled
"Preview." With it, one can "preview" his/her message prior to
posting. I think that the "preview" would be best made as a
default prior to posting so that we can read our remarks, perhaps
reflect on what's being stated and mostly, edit any grammatical or
spelling errors that were typed in the "heat of the moment."
As you are in the Tampa Bay area, one can assume that you have an
understanding of the English/American language.
Based on your posts here at the DPReview Forum you would never,
ever be considered to make any photographs for me.
Walt, take heed to your own message: "Let the light in!"

--
Regards,
(afka Wile E. Coyote)
Bill
PSAA
Equipment in profile.

--
Ah gee I was just going to offer to take your portrait.

Great, great post attack grammatical and spelling errors. Great input.

I will be much more carefull in the future, and I am very sorry I offend you with my grammatical and spelling errors.

Sure I can not offer you a couple of wallets and maybe a 4 x 5?

Wile E. Coyote you certainly live up to your name. Keep adding all you

know it is a great contribution.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

 

[NicholasS]

More at:

http://quotes.fablis.com/index.php/Pablo_Picasso

I have discovered photography. Now I can kill myself. I have
nothing else to learn. -- Pablo Picasso

--
Nick

 

[Bill_Turner]

nt

--
Ah gee I was just going to offer to take your portrait.

Great, great post attack grammatical and spelling errors. Great
input.

I will be much more carefull in the future, and I am very sorry I
offend you with my grammatical and spelling errors.

Sure I can not offer you a couple of wallets and maybe a 4 x 5?

Wile E. Coyote you certainly live up to your name. Keep adding all
you

know it is a great contribution.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

--
Regards,
(afka Wile E. Coyote)
Bill
PSAA
Equipment in profile.

 

[Madmardigan]

FWIW

I beat "The Pro's" (especially wedding photographers), every time I turn on my damn camera. I've been doing this since 1973 and I 've met VERY few professional photographers who even slightly remember the soul of photography. So.....blow me Sparky, and go back to whatever marginalized existence you come from.

"Those who can do. Those who can't.....shoot weddings."

An analogy....wannabe race car driver teaching student-drivers, while sipping bourbon and coffee to soften the pain of being a miserable failure.

Wedding photographers with ego are amusing.

On the other hand -- I can CERTAINLY do better than the pro we
hired 14 years ago that did OUR wedding.

To bad you got a bad photographer and you did not know how to hire a
good one. Maybe you learned. Maybe you found a wana-be?

All I have to do here is repeat my answer too bad you did not know
how to hire a good one. For instance a certified PPA or WPPI
wedding photogdrapher all that information was available to you why
did you not use it????

The point is -- the person was a full time "pro" and I'm sure that
lots of folks on the forum here could have done a better job. Thus
I don't greet with skepticism the stories folks tell of when they
"out shot the pro".

How many full time photographers did you interview did you choose
on cost, portfolio, references? I know the answer don't have to
tell me?

Because frankly, it's not that hard to do. Rather than "most all"
pros being "awesome" like my friend is -- I'd say that there's a
good many of them that aren't really all that good.

How many full time wedding photographers do you REALLY REALLY KNOW
NOT MANY JUST GERERALIZING. I know hundreds of full time wedding
photographers and part time photographers that are very good to
excellent. You know not what are talking about. All of them will
beat the pants of the wanabe's in this forum hands down, because
they do not know what they are doing. They have been fully trained
in formal lighting, posing, and business practices. HOW ABOUT
YOU????

So this high and might stance of "pro" is something I don't give
much credence to. If they are "talented" then they are "talented"
-- pro or not.

I try not to mention pro in any of my posts. Because I believe
there are full time wedding photographers and part time wedding
photographers that are as good as each other. I do not believe
that a photographer showing up at a wedding with no assistant, no
aux lighting, no light meter (oh my god I am going to split a side}
taking a few shots over the full time wedding photographers setup
and screaming I am just is good is stupid.

The fact that some folks do this day in and day out is not what
makes them worthwhile. Only what they can produce.

Not only do it every day but carry equipment for a couple of years,
shoot second photographer for a few years and yes even go to
phtogaphy school
JOIN PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, SPEND THOUSANDS ON SEMINARS WITH
REGI, MONTY, CLAY ETC Go to meetings monthly to keep up with the
latest lighting, posing, wedding techiques. Bad ones do not last
long and those that do not want to do the work don't last long?
AND BY THE WAY IF YOU MESS UP ONE JUST ONE WEDDING YOU ARE DONE FOR
GOOD.

Listening to some of "the pros" on this "pros" forum dis the "non
pros" is reminiscent of reading a Nikon forum where nothing but
Nikon gear is worthy.

They are sick and tired of you even pretending to understand? Ha,
Ha, Ha Ha, YOU ARE SOO FUNNY GET A LIFE JUST THINK OF WHAT YOU SAW
YOUR FULL TIME PHOTOGRAPHER GO THROUGH???????????????

--
Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

--
George W. Bush picks his nose.

 

[Iusefilm]

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Is it REALLY that hard to believe that some of the non-pros can
equal or better the hired help?

I have a friend who runs a wedding photography business. His work
(and those of the shooters who work for him) are AMAZING. I went
on a shoot with him and he included a couple of my shots in his
presentation to the client -- didn't have my "pro gear" at the time.

Anyway -- there's NO WAY I can outshoot this guy. Not now....not
for a long time. Then again, he's a high end wedding photographer
-- second generation, grew up in the business and now runs it.

On the other hand -- I can CERTAINLY do better than the pro we
hired 14 years ago that did OUR wedding.

All pros are not equal. And frankly, there are some rather
talented shooters who just don't happen to shoot for a living.

Lee

--

This getting as interesting as paying $7000.00 for the Kodak 14c on this or other forum gurus "Recomendation"
Tony K

 

[eyevibe]

You know I am a really good cook, everyone tells me so. At my friends wedding next week I am going to make a few dishes and serve it to the guests. I will make sure I tell the caterer that I am there so I don't get in the way, but other than that I bet I can outcook the pro caterer! This will be my gift to the bride and groom!

 

[MarkLe]

and then it will be a real battle with sticks and monopods

shooting a wedding is one of the most difficult task a person can even imagine to do in a lifetime, where skills are required and photography is one (or just one) of them

the original poster has no idea about it, and this kind of question brings me right to that conclusion.

http://www.imagingphotographics.com

 

[Sifodyas]

So tru.

Crowd-control is a reason why 99% of photographers suffer from hair-loss.

Speaking to one photographer, he suggested that I use a whistle, come the next time I wanted the attention of a dozen or so people, who are not in the slightest bit interested in the fact they are interferring with the filming or photography of somebody elses event! Not bad, but I'd run out of breath, I suspect.

Another photographer whom I met in a lab, one time, was known to swear at his customers guests . For instance, he would be happy telling individuals to look at his camera or "get the f*k out of the way". For whatever reason, he was still in business. Whilst talking to him, he did make one useful observation in his experience, and that was the decline of what were once excellent photographers who had decided on cutting corners, for whatever reason.

Even with my short experience of time with weddings/video/photography, I totally agree with you about capturing these events is a seriously difficult task. A whole host of skills are demanded of you, and the job does not finish when the celebrations are over.

Alas, perhaps a thread on "what is a pro" would have been more appropriate as people have some funky ideas of what is involved.

and then it will be a real battle with sticks and monopods

shooting a wedding is one of the most difficult task a person can
even imagine to do in a lifetime, where skills are required and
photography is one (or just one) of them

the original poster has no idea about it, and this kind of question
brings me right to that conclusion.

http://www.imagingphotographics.com

 

[centralcoastmagazine]

shooting a wedding is one of the most difficult task a person can
even imagine to do in a lifetime, where skills are required and
photography is one (or just one) of them

the original poster has no idea about it, and this kind of question
brings me right to that conclusion.

Mark, just why is a wedding so difficult compared to many other situations?

Say, fesivals, car shows, fashion, packing 20 miles into the desert, war PJ,
corporate events etc?

Given that ones knows the equipment and lighting and has fair people skills,
weddings are absolutly a joy and spark creativity probably more than any other
job becase the emotion and people being at one of their most joyful events of
their lives.

Where is the diffucility?

Maybe you could point out some difficult time not equipment related because
you do have back up there like any pro.

I'm just saying that weddings are a whole bunch of fun and almost never

difficult for me and that I did not want to spread the tale that they are difficult.

Just my point of view..... guess my attitude on the subject is just different or
the experience is so.

HB

--
••• 'What ever'..... your probably right •••

 

[centralcoastmagazine]

So tru.

Crowd-control is a reason why 99% of photographers suffer from
hair-loss.

Do you go to rehearsals? First thing to arrange with the B&G about this
subject from the first meeting at big weddings is for them to assign you
a person to help you or you enlist one yourself.

A sister or otherwise makes a good temp assistant. We are good at picking
out these temps and try for two or more of them to help us. This means
"crowd control" going after family that might have wandered off for food etc.

Rehearsal usually helps with the rest. How may photographers show up
on the "day of" and then complain how hard it is? Duh....

How many photographers are do not know the flow and can either be
quiet and candid or agressive enough when necessary? You job is to
capture the best images you can and set a pace that work for that end.

Difficult, nope.... challenging.... yes..... fun... you bet...

HB

 

[LeeBase]

Close analogy.

Let's play with it some. You like to cook. You invite friends over for a dinner party -- someone gets upset about all these "wanna be chefs ruining the catering business".

Or how about -- you are invited to someone else's party -- you are a gifted cook so you make a nice tray of finger foods / deserts...whatever and you give them to the host when you arrive. Turns out the party was catered and everyone raved about your desert rather than the hired helps.

People cook all the time. Only some try it as a profession.

Practically everyone takes pictures.

Lee

You know I am a really good cook, everyone tells me so. At my
friends wedding next week I am going to make a few dishes and serve
it to the guests. I will make sure I tell the caterer that I am
there so I don't get in the way, but other than that I bet I can
outcook the pro caterer! This will be my gift to the bride and
groom!

 

[Chris George205457]

I think weddings might be more difficult in the sense that you are required to catch these once-in-a-lifetime special moments the instant they happen. That said, I find it one of the greatest challenges and inspirations. When you capture that perfect candid photograph at a wedding...what a great feeling.

-Chris

Mark, just why is a wedding so difficult compared to many other
situations?

Say, fesivals, car shows, fashion, packing 20 miles into the
desert, war PJ,
corporate events etc?

Given that ones knows the equipment and lighting and has fair
people skills,
weddings are absolutly a joy and spark creativity probably more
than any other
job becase the emotion and people being at one of their most joyful
events of
their lives.

Where is the diffucility?

Maybe you could point out some difficult time not equipment related
because
you do have back up there like any pro.

I'm just saying that weddings are a whole bunch of fun and almost
never
difficult for me and that I did not want to spread the tale that
they are difficult.

Just my point of view..... guess my attitude on the subject is just
different or
the experience is so.

HB

--
••• 'What ever'..... your probably right •••

 

[eyevibe]

People cook all the time. Only some try it as a profession.

Practically everyone takes pictures.

Only some try taking pictures as a profession.

See everybody can be good at things others are good at. I can't stand here and say no one takes better photos than me (I don't think anyone can) but I think what blows pro's away (and not all of them!) is that they have taken years to perfect their craft, establish their business and book a wedding and someone else comes in with their weekend hobby and tries to compete. It's not about who can get a better first kiss shot, it's about doing a wonderful job for the B&G so they have memories to cherish forever. If you want to be a wedding photogrpaher, be one, there is room for everyone, but constantly ranting about who is better the am or the pro or the pro was shooting an old film camera and I had my new MKII equates to who has a bigger......ego!
--
m.munoz

 

[centralcoastmagazine]

I think weddings might be more difficult in the sense that you are
required to catch these once-in-a-lifetime special moments the
instant they happen. That said, I find it one of the greatest
challenges and inspirations. When you capture that perfect candid
photograph at a wedding...what a great feeling.

-Chris

thanks, Chris, you have enough passion to know the feel (in zone) and
the experience to make it technically 'easy' and those moments challenging
and rewarding at the same time.

Part of the business model one picks up over the years is to answer every
question and seek solutions to any challenge. The more you work these out
with experience, the more you feel in the zone. That is where you are a
pro with and 'eye' and not a pro with a (expensive digital) camera.....

 

[LeeBase]

Constantly ranting? I don;t think so....this is my one rant thread....and the target of my rants are not "pros" but the "pros" on this forum who are so insecure about their profession that they feel compelled to belittle any "non-pro" who dares mention their "any given Sunday" experience.

As for the "I worked years....and they show up....." --- I'm only bothered if "they" interefere with my work. If they happen to get some great shots -- good as or better than mine -- what's that to me?

Lee

People cook all the time. Only some try it as a profession.

Practically everyone takes pictures.

Only some try taking pictures as a profession.

See everybody can be good at things others are good at. I can't
stand here and say no one takes better photos than me (I don't
think anyone can) but I think what blows pro's away (and not all of
them!) is that they have taken years to perfect their craft,
establish their business and book a wedding and someone else comes
in with their weekend hobby and tries to compete. It's not about
who can get a better first kiss shot, it's about doing a wonderful
job for the B&G so they have memories to cherish forever. If you
want to be a wedding photogrpaher, be one, there is room for
everyone, but constantly ranting about who is better the am or the
pro or the pro was shooting an old film camera and I had my new
MKII equates to who has a bigger......ego!
--
m.munoz

 

[MarkLe]

Sifodyas,

out of breath and no hair... that's why!!!!!
now I see things a bit more clear, thanks to you

mark

http://www.imagingphotographics.com