Beating the pro

[riokid]

Even a $1000 three hour digital weekend wedding has $800
profit

Did you provide any finished product at all? Maybe $.19 prints @
Costco

Stupid flame......

Did you account for equipment depreciation?
Did you account for post-processing time? at $7.50/hr?

another flame or just a flicker, since I posted the day rate for processing.

I think I am missing a lot! I am interested to see your numbers.

Okay, I'll bit on a few general facts......

We will do a $1000 or as mentioned a $600 one. These amount to
one or two per year and only last minute situations. They are nice two
hour affairs and pay for some new toy. A friend is a minister and does
some wedding he may book a couple of months in advance since he
just does this for friends. We take care of his weddings which are
usually at the beach. These don't have all the pre-wedding meetings
and follow up you mentioned, they are profitable enough for a
afternoon job with little trouble. Our portrait session is about the
same price, so it is just like a week day job anyway.

The post says our most of our weddings are $1500 to $2500 and a
few all day $3500 per year.

We provide all media upon full payment and a referal to a very good
local digital (agfa d2) digial printer here locally. We have the
mentioned
costs, 10 rolls of MF which we do develop only and send to client.

Packages range in cost and we will adjust on the higher packages
by time although a basic package is $1500, mostly because younger
clients
still are looking for reasonable rates and they make good clients.

depreciation: I started thinking in terms of wedding per camera.
Two large
weddings is a Mark II, etc. Not really a concern, but I take your
point. One
small wedding is a 10D..... what's your point, one wedding one back
up 10d.... don't
sweat the petty cash account unless you need to?

Your post was about the low end wedding vs the effort. A part time
wedding photographer (there a a bunch of great ones locally capable of
some fine quality) pro will do well to pay for equipment. Many we know
have either done wedding full time in the past or assist pros
currently.

There is still good profit in even part time wedding work and those
people are professional since they are getting paid. How many full
time
folks do weddings on weekdays Monday - Thrusday? Really?

So, people will charge like they want, even at your so called low
prices
and the market will either let them expand or not. They will determine
if it is worth the time v.s. working at the burger joint. Their
clients will
let them know if the quality is up to standards, not us.

Hope this helps...... HB

 

[Matt K134792]

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Is it REALLY that hard to believe that some of the non-pros can
equal or better the hired help?

I have a friend who runs a wedding photography business. His work
(and those of the shooters who work for him) are AMAZING. I went
on a shoot with him and he included a couple of my shots in his
presentation to the client -- didn't have my "pro gear" at the time.

Anyway -- there's NO WAY I can outshoot this guy. Not now....not
for a long time. Then again, he's a high end wedding photographer
-- second generation, grew up in the business and now runs it.

On the other hand -- I can CERTAINLY do better than the pro we
hired 14 years ago that did OUR wedding.

All pros are not equal. And frankly, there are some rather
talented shooters who just don't happen to shoot for a living.

Lee

IMHO..of course....

The real problem is when a professional comes to a forum like this and offers help to others.

Your intent with this post is questionable...I would equate it to walking into the Naperville church, making a quick acclamation of God, and then requesting a donation...BTW...I'm a Christian, and I know The Father, Son, and HolyGhost As well as the next preacher. You make statements that are obvious like" not all pro's are equal " but you leave out the important stuff, like how that pro is relying on that paycheck to feed his/her family....or to make the rent on his studio, or the light bill. you make statements on you site like "youv'e gotten into photography Big time --- qouting 30,000 + photo's" Thats less than 15 days of work for a pro. your post is like hoping off a handmatic scooter, and walking into a Hells Angels' Bicker Bar... Afterall,,, You've got a lether jacket on...right....

Anyways....God bless you, you are right...The pro's here have absoulutely no right complaining here....Afterall....they stick around propagating the same individuals they complain about....
--
Regards....Matt K
' Why isn't Phonetic spelled the way it sounds ???? '

'You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn't waste either.'....Galen Rowell

 

[Ricardo41]

The reason the wedding photographer included your pics in his presentation was because he wanted to do you a favor and massage your ego a bit.

Of course, the rank amateur will sometimes get in a "lucky shot." Perhaps a candid pic of the bride with her finger up her nostrils. Nothing wrong with that at all. But, as a competition for professional photography? Please, give me a break.

The difference between a professional and an amateur is as follows:

The amateur starts every thread about the great contribution he (and they are always hes) is going to make to his friend's wedding with: "I was invited to a wedding and brought along my brandnew Canon 10D and my 2 new lenses.

(This could be translated as: I brought along my new *****, with 2 testicles hanging off my neck. This, btw, is the same attituded with which men try to impress each other in "camera clubs.").

The professional photographer will start his observations with: "I was invited to a wedding and realized the wedding was to be held outdoors, in 100 degrees, at noon."

The amateur photographer will make sure everybody notices him and his equipment - he'll probably spend a lot of time showing his cousin's 12 year old son how all the buttons on his camera work.

The professional photographer will spend the time he isn't shooting downloading images to a harddrive, formatting flash cards, etc.

After the work is done, the professional photographer will spend a lot of time processing images, getting proofs ready, burning cds, starting to print out images, etc.

As I said in another post, the amateur photographer can't be bothered with this kind of "tedium." He'll just "burn all the images on cd," because he "doesn't care about copyright."

Oh, and here is an interesting twist: the couple want at least a dozen images in black and white.

The amateur photographer says to himself: I'll just remove all colors in photoshop (digital dilletantes usually think black and white means no color).

The professional photographer comes prepared with a second body, loaded with slow, fine-grain b & w film. Luckily for the couple, the photographer is also a master printer.

In short, the amateur delivers a record of the event, but the pro delivers memories - using the power of his artistic imagination to do so.

ricardo

 

[LeeBase]

The reason the wedding photographer included your pics in his
presentation was because he wanted to do you a favor and massage
your ego a bit.

I think you missed my point on that. He's terrific -- I can't hope to be as good as he. I was using him as the example of the pro that's NOT going to be beat by a guest shooter.

My getting one or two shots in the final cut was demonstrative of my LACK of measuring up to this guy.

Of course, the rank amateur will sometimes get in a "lucky shot."

I agree with you on the "lucky shot" thing. The difference with MOST pros (we hope) is that they can produce quality day in and day out.

However, it's not SUCH a stretch that a pro on the left side of the bell curve could be beat on a given day by a hobbyist. And yet, recently, when someone told of such a story, the reaction of some pros was derision.

My perspective is that it's not at all hard to imagine such a situation. You know the concept "any given Sunday".

Like the time I beat a master in chess -- one of those park situations where the guy plays 20 games at a time and wins them all -- usually. Except the ONE day when I won. Not because I could ever do it again, and certainly not one on one -- but on THAT day, I did.

So when someone talks about THEIR day -- I don't find it at all hard to believe.

Perhaps a candid pic of the bride with her finger up her nostrils.
Nothing wrong with that at all. But, as a competition for
professional photography? Please, give me a break.

I didn't present this as competition for professional photography. Is that what's going on? Some of the pros on here are so insecure that any mention of talent out of the pro ranks has to be derided lest the ivory tower of "pro photography" come tumbling down?

The difference between a professional and an amateur is as follows:

Great list. Not relevant to the point that sometimes on "a given day" the pro is beat.

Not ALL days -- or MOST days. I'd never reccomend someone eschew a good and qualified photographer in favor of the guy who got a set of "lucky shots" once in his life.

But neither have I seen anyone making that point -- yet the mere mention of someone's "one day" is throwing some of you pros in a tizzy.

Lee

 

[LeeBase]

Your point would make more sense if I wasn't reacting to the treatment I see some of these "pros" handing out to others.

Or if I were trying to make the point that pros in general are no better than uncle harry with a polaroid.

Lee

 

[LeeBase]

A few observations...

We have avid photographers shooting along with us every week. It
does not bother us. About a month ago, we had a wedding where there
was a D100, a D1H, two 10D, and two Digital Rebels. No kidding.

My observation after watching hundreds of avid shooters at work at
my weddings is that some are good and some are not. Just like pros.
Most do not stick with it. They shoot a little of this and a little
of that and then they get distracted. Some stay involved through
the whole event and no doubt produce a decent body of work. Few, if
any, though, anticipate what's coming up next and where they should
be positioned to best capture it.

We often work at a pretty high-end venue where there is usually
another wedding going on in the other ballroom. I always drop in
during dinner to see if its someone I know. Most of the time the
pro has a handle on things. Often he/she does not. As you say, some
pros are good and some are not.

It seems to me visiting this forum every so often that there are
suprisingly few pros who really post in this forum. After all, it
gets a little tedious sifting through the never ending "Help me
pick a good point and shoot" to find something worthwhile.

Those who seem to react the strongest to the notion of someone
"outshooting the Pro" seem to be the most vulnerable to the
competition.

Eric

 

[LeeBase]

Nope -- couldn't happen. Never never, nope. You're dreamin. You believe that buying equipment makes you talented.

HERE LET ME TYPE IN CAPS AND LAUGH AT YOU

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

How stupid you are.

.......sorry, couldn't resist....thanks for sharing about your "any given Sunday" experience.

Lee

Those who seem to react the strongest to the notion of someone
"outshooting the Pro" seem to be the most vulnerable to the
competition.

Eric

BINGO! HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD!

I mostly read forums and withhold frivolous commentary, just try
and glean useful bit and pieces - mostly technical stuff. BUT this
thread was too good to pass up as I recently had an experience
involving a "pro" photographer ... my niece's high school
graduation.

For which my wife's brother hired what appeared to be an
established "pro" photographer. Looking at his rate sheet, he isn't
charging "cheapo" prices. My brother-in-law is a well paid CPA and
willing to pay good money for a good photographer. I guess he
failed to perform "due diligence" in this case (yes I did say he
was a CPA, you'd think he'd due diligence the thing to death). I
believe the "pro" was recommended by a friend so he assumed the guy
would produce quality work ... never assume, right.

Man o' man, did I have to hold my tongue during the photo shoot at
my brother-in-law's house! If this guy was a "pro" I'll take
"cousin Billy Joe Bob with a P&S" anytime!

1) Making members of the family kneel down several times in their
dress clothes .... on freshly mowed green grass ... every hear of
grass stains on expensive clothers dude!

2) Using rickety, faded, peeling, wooden stools for several group
poses. At the prices your charging at least go to Walmart camping
section and get yourself something classier!

3) Badgering the kid's mom about her unwillingness to step into a
thick flower garden to position her head in the right place
relative to the group. Ooh, very smart.

and on, and on... But I didn't say A word, after all I'm no "pro".

Between group shots I (with all sincerity and curiousity) inquired
about his gear and mentioned a couple of pieces of gear I recently
bought ... 100-400L that I'm SO happy with (I think I'll get it out
and fondle it some more after this post) and a Bogen Leveling head
for my new tripod (Bogen 3021PRO). Not being a "pro", my discovery
of the existence of such a super handy device (ball leveling head)
was akin to Einstein's finalizing the theory of relativiety.
Remember folks I'm no "pro" just a simpleton amatuer.

So when I relayed my glee with my new gear the "pro's" response
.... "Well I have a f2.8 70 - 200L, that 100-400L isn't all it's
cracked up to be. I doubt you're going to be happy with it if you
ever get serious. Leveling heads have been around forever, I guess
you new to photography? You really should have bought Model ABC
from company XZY, that low-end Bogen stuff is OK I guess for your
purposes".

Oh I so wanted to rip him a new one. But didn't say A word. After
all he is a "pro".

The story ends with NONE of the family members purchasing a single
picture from the guy since all the shots were incredibly mediocre.
My wife snapped pic's with our lowly Canon G2 and had more than a
few really nice "keepers". She an artist type, understands
composition, "mood", shadows, additive/subtractive colors blah,
blah. She can turn the G2 on, what effect aperature has on depth of
field, what the blinking battery light means, how to change the
flash card and maybe a little bit more. Good thing she turned out
to be the "Billy Joe Bob with a P&S" at this event?

 

[Paul M Bowers]

If I remove all the bluster and posturing, all the nasty comments, all the "left of the bell curve" self promotional comments, your point could possibly be summarized as:

There are some very talented amateurs with a good eye and excellent gear. Many are quite capable of professional level work, some at a high level.

OK. I completely agree. Have fun, enjoy yourself. Try not to be so nasty, it reflects poorly on you, and discourages what could be a healthy exchange of ideas.

p

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously, folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

 

[LeeBase]

OK. I completely agree. Have fun, enjoy yourself. Try not to be
so nasty, it reflects poorly on you, and discourages what could be
a healthy exchange of ideas.

Nasty? I'm responding to the nastiness. The "left of the bell curve" is not nasty, it reflects the point -- which is "sometimes the pro can be beat" such that "when someone tells such a story, it should not automatically be derided by the insecure pros on the forum".

Now "insecure pros" is nasty -- but honest -- and deserved by the treatment these folks are handing out.

Lee

 

[Paul M Bowers]

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously, folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

 

[Jack Young196365]

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Who cares what you have your full of?

Is it REALLY that hard to believe that some of the non-pros can
equal or better the hired help?

NO???? But 99.98% can not? If the hired help makes a living of it
and has been properly trained.

I have a friend who runs a wedding photography business. His work
(and those of the shooters who work for him) are AMAZING. I went
on a shoot with him and he included a couple of my shots in his
presentation to the client -- didn't have my "pro gear" at the time.

Exactly my point he is AMAZING. Your two shots were an accident ya
got to do it every time like him, PERIOD, and he has the gear and
experiance.

Anyway -- there's NO WAY I can outshoot this guy. Not now....not
for a long time. Then again, he's a high end wedding photographer
-- second generation, grew up in the business and now runs it.

Exactly my point, what's your gripe?

On the other hand -- I can CERTAINLY do better than the pro we
hired 14 years ago that did OUR wedding.

To bad you got a bad photographer and you did not know how to hire a
good one. Maybe you learned. Maybe you found a wana-be?

All pros are not equal. And frankly, there are some rather
talented shooters who just don't happen to shoot for a living.

All wedding photographers are no equal, like not all lawyers,
priests, doctors, thats why the long interview period most people
go thruough.

There are millions and millions of great non full time
photographers that are fabulous. They are just not as obnoxious as
some in this forum, who think they are all knowing and understand
what a full time photographer needs to go through to make a living.
I believe that there is not one of them are effecting a full time
photographers living, only the full time phototrapher can do that

I know quite a few part time wedding photographers who are
excellent wedding photographers and spend most of their time when
away from their day jobs, learning the business how to pose light
and do the business of wedding photography most spend a year or two
assisting before they jump in like me. These relationships were
built in professional organizations, photographic seminars for
weeks on end, and in my case four years of formal training in
photography.

Sooo here is what I got to saY to you, hang in there, practice with
the good pro you know, and lighten up. HA, HA, HA, HA I REALLY
DONT CARE WHAT YOU ARE FULL OF????????? But I have a great idea of
what it is!!!!!!!!

--
Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

--
'Read ten thousands books, travel ten thousands miles.' - Confucius

http://www.jackzyoung.com

 

[LeeBase]

I win -- I beat the pro!

...just kidding.....

peace, hugs, and flowers all 'round.

Lee

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and
every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your
mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my
posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously,
folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

 

[wgc]

Finally showed your colors. You are the one who came to a pro forum just to complain about pros. You are the one who said many don't put the bar very high, I just asked how many and by the way who judged their work. You are the one who hired a bad photographer for your wedding. I never never mentioned I was a better photographer you did. You are the one who puts off questions as irrelevant and changed the subject without even answering one of my questions. I will not call you an idiot because I do not know you or anything about you. I will leave you with this: live well take great pictures and enjoy your camera and laugh he, he, ha, ha, ha.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

 

[AlanG]

"I could have been a contender."

Believing you can make good pictures is not the same as the reality of having to please clients job after job, year after year.

It is easy to have an overconfident opinion if your only criteria is a very repeateable and predictable aspect of photography - such as weddings. Yeah it looks easy... But even in that field, creativity, professionalism, dedication and creativity has its rewards.

Some pros do better than others. And it doesn't take a top pro to work at the Walmart portrait booth.

For those of you who think you can make it in this business, the only way you'll know is to do it.

Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com

 

[LeeBase]

Perhaps I was unclear. I do not suggest that any and everyone can be a pro. Nor will one set of "lucky shots" mean one is ready to turn pro.

I just saw no reason to deride folks who share a story that is essentially an "any given Sunday" type story where the non-pro either "saved the day" or "produced better than the pro".

In MY experience -- there is just SO much to learn. It's amazing -- and going from taking "a few lucky shots" to being able to "get the shot" all the time and under pressure and in all kinds of situations -- THAT's what you pay a pro for.

Lee

"I could have been a contender."

Believing you can make good pictures is not the same as the reality
of having to please clients job after job, year after year.

It is easy to have an overconfident opinion if your only criteria
is a very repeateable and predictable aspect of photography - such
as weddings. Yeah it looks easy... But even in that field,
creativity, professionalism, dedication and creativity has its
rewards.

Some pros do better than others. And it doesn't take a top pro to
work at the Walmart portrait booth.

For those of you who think you can make it in this business, the
only way you'll know is to do it.

Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com

 

[JBPittman]

I have discovered photography. Now I can kill myself. I have
nothing else to learn. -- Pablo Picasso

 

[rrwin]

In short, the amateur delivers a record of the event, but the pro
delivers memories - using the power of his artistic imagination to
do so.

ricardo

Before you strain your arm patting yourself on the back too much about your “artistic memories” ask people who have been married for a number of years about how often they look their wedding photos. It will vary by the length of their marriage but most will tell you that over time they look more often at the snapshots taken by friends and relatives. The real memories are in those snapshots because they show the real side of people – who was there and what they were doing. After years of marriage you care less about the artistry and more about the reality. Your life moves on to photos of your kids, vacations and special events. You might pull out the wedding photos on your anniversary to have a laugh and wonder who those people are. Don’t underestimate the value of those who use photography to “record” a personal event. There is a place for both the pro and the amateur at these events and since they see things from different a prospective, both have great contributions to make.

Randy

 

[wgc]

Thanks, Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Great shot from the side? Just jump in any time and dump everything you know, great conversation love talking wth ya?

 

[Bern Caughey]

Paul,

I've mostly been avoiding these forum for the usual reasons, but I quoted you here yesterday. Ironically it is in the thread that lead into this one.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=9536045

Best regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

 

[Bern Caughey]

I always advice the couple to put disposable cameras on every table at the reception for this very reason. They may lose a few of them, but for the most part they will get images few if any pros could deliver.

Regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/