A7R3 electronic shutter banding problem

[Samytr]

Any way to solve banding problem (light lines under LED, fluorescent etc lights) when the camera used with electronic shutter (silent mode)...

TIA

 

[SQLGuy]

Not that I know of. You're taking an exposure where the shutter takes 1/13th of a second to traverse the frame, and using lighting that's pulsing in 1/30th of a second or less.

You need to either not use silent shutter, or get a camera whose silent shutter takes less time to traverse. Maybe an A9 would work. A leaf shutter would be fine. (RX-1, ZX-1 - if they ever actually ship the thing)...

Really long exposures might be OK... something where the shutter traversal speed is much shorter than the exposure... 1/8" maybe 1/4"... One other thing that might work is using continuous high to shoot three or four exposures and stacking them in post.

--
A7R2 with SEL2470Z and a number of adapted lenses (Canon FD, Minolta AF, Canon EF, Leica, Nikon...); A7R converted to IR.

 

[KneeConWon]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

 

[SQLGuy]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

 

[JimKasson]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

That's about right.

For a little more detail:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/mitigating-lighting-banding-in-gfx-es-images/

Jim

 

[SQLGuy]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

By the way, I did test this with my A7R2: using illumination from a single fluorescent tube with 60Hz mains, I tried shots at 1/500th, 1/160th, 1/60th, and 1/30th, with EFCS and with silent shutter. All silent shutter shots had banding, though it was horrible and super obvious at 1/500th and almost as bad at 1/160th. I would say 1/500th with EFCS looked about as good as 1/30th with silent shutter.

I also tried a 1/10th with silent shutter. That looked pretty good.

--
A7R2 with SEL2470Z and a number of adapted lenses (Canon FD, Minolta AF, Canon EF, Leica, Nikon...); A7R converted to IR.

 

[JimKasson]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

By the way, I did test this with my A7R2: using illumination from a single fluorescent tube with 60Hz mains, I tried shots at 1/500th, 1/160th, 1/60th, and 1/30th, with EFCS and with silent shutter. All silent shutter shots had banding, though it was horrible and super obvious at 1/500th and almost as bad at 1/160th. I would say 1/500th with EFCS looked about as good as 1/30th with silent shutter.

I also tried a 1/10th with silent shutter. That looked pretty good.

As you can see in the link I posted earlier, it works better with some LED lighting.

 

[SQLGuy]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

By the way, I did test this with my A7R2: using illumination from a single fluorescent tube with 60Hz mains, I tried shots at 1/500th, 1/160th, 1/60th, and 1/30th, with EFCS and with silent shutter. All silent shutter shots had banding, though it was horrible and super obvious at 1/500th and almost as bad at 1/160th. I would say 1/500th with EFCS looked about as good as 1/30th with silent shutter.

I also tried a 1/10th with silent shutter. That looked pretty good.

As you can see in the link I posted earlier, it works better with some LED lighting.

Yes. Your test is also with a Fuji GFX-50, which has a completely different electronic shutter/sensor. And the OP was asking about LED, fluorescent, etc. Do you know what the modulation frequency is of your LED lamp? The intensity of the banding even at slower shutter speeds makes me think it might be some multiple of 60Hz, rather than just line frequency.

I have LED lamps in the ceiling in my work room, so I tested with those as well. They were not as bad as the single fluorescent tube, but they still banded much more noticeably at non-1/60th multiple shutter speeds with silent shutter than with EFCS. I wouldn't be surprised if the LED lamps are using some phase shifting to at least have two sets of LEDs offset from each other, similarly to how two fluorescent tubes will usually be configured out of phase with each other. On the other other hand, if they can phase shift the LEDs, why not do three sets 120 degrees off, so they could eliminate pulsing altogether?

 

[JimKasson]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

By the way, I did test this with my A7R2: using illumination from a single fluorescent tube with 60Hz mains, I tried shots at 1/500th, 1/160th, 1/60th, and 1/30th, with EFCS and with silent shutter. All silent shutter shots had banding, though it was horrible and super obvious at 1/500th and almost as bad at 1/160th. I would say 1/500th with EFCS looked about as good as 1/30th with silent shutter.

I also tried a 1/10th with silent shutter. That looked pretty good.

As you can see in the link I posted earlier, it works better with some LED lighting.

Yes. Your test is also with a Fuji GFX-50, which has a completely different electronic shutter/sensor. And the OP was asking about LED, fluorescent, etc. Do you know what the modulation frequency is of your LED lamp?

120 Hz. Twice the line frequency is the most common. 60 Hz is near the flicker fusion frequency for peripheral vision.

The intensity of the banding even at slower shutter speeds makes me think it might be some multiple of 60Hz, rather than just line frequency.

I have LED lamps in the ceiling in my work room, so I tested with those as well. They were not as bad as the single fluorescent tube, but they still banded much more noticeably at non-1/60th multiple shutter speeds with silent shutter than with EFCS. I wouldn't be surprised if the LED lamps are using some phase shifting to at least have two sets of LEDs offset from each other, similarly to how two fluorescent tubes will usually be configured out of phase with each other. On the other other hand, if they can phase shift the LEDs, why not do three sets 120 degrees off, so they could eliminate pulsing altogether?

Most just use full wave rectification, I think.

--
https://blog.kasson.com

 

[FujLiver]

Any way to solve banding problem (light lines under LED, fluorescent etc lights) when the camera used with electronic shutter (silent mode)...

TIA

I use silent shutter permanently. I only switch to manual if I see an issue on a particular photo, which is almost never. I think it’s only the old fashioned long fluorescents that still cause the problem

--
"No photograph survives first contact with the subject"

 

[Tristimulus]

Try shooting at 1/60 of a second, 1/30 of a second, or any shutter speed slower than 1/30 of a second. Or if you live in other parts of the world, try shooting at 1/50 of a second.

These are good suggestions.... for use of mechanical shutter or EFCS. They are not as helpful for silent shutter.

Use silent shutter almost all the time and live in a 50Hz world.

When using 1/50 sec exposure (exposure compensation must be set to 1/3 stop to get this shutter speed) there is in rare cases a trace of banding - mostly gone.

By using 1/25 sec exposure two cycles are covered and averaged and the banding is gone.

Also works fine for LEDs as the frequency is higher, so covering more cycles. Often artificial light is a combination of light sources and 1/25 sec usually solves the banding problem.

For one living in a 60Hz world the solution is 1/60 or 1/30 sec.

Movement can be a problem but shooting several frames (silent shooting is terrific in this regard) usually one or more frames wind up sharp enough. It is easy to wish for everything all the time but the wise one search for a practical way out based on reality as it is.