Beating the pro

Do you get any money to show for it?

Why do you get satisfaction out of taking pictures and giving them away for free? (Not that I don't do it too sometimes as a gift.) I'm just wondering why so many people do it?

Using the title "Beating the pros" would seem to indicate there is more involved than just a benevolent gesture. Ego possibly?

I'm not a wedding photographer, but just last weekend, I attended a wedding and took some pictures. I rarely ever bring a camera to a wedding but my girlfriend asked me to shoot a few "personal style" pictures as a favor at her nephew's wedding. I was careful to not duplicate what the wedding photographer was shooting. (Mostly formal set-up shots.) I just did some special candids that I felt would be unique in capturing some personality. I try to be inconspicuous when I work.

I consider myself to be a pretty talented professional and I could easily have shot a lot of pictures and given them more "special moments." But since when do I work for free?

I'd hate to shoot so much for free that it would have any impact on the print sales that the pro would make. And I think I'll take a little while before sending anything just to be sure it doesn't.

--
Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com

AlanG said:

Why do you get satisfaction out of taking pictures and giving them
away for free?

Click to expand...

That's a good question. Is it really so hard to understand?

You like to take photos. You are at an important event where there are lots of opportunities to take photos. You care about the people. You like making them happy.

You're not a pro -- so why would you charge your friends for doing what you like to do?

If a friend helps me fix my sink -- I buy him breakfast or something -- I don't pay him.

Not saying it's wrong to charge -- just that it's very easy to understand those who don't -- at least it is for me.

Like others have said -- the hobbyist doesn't worry much about blowing the shot. If nothing comes out good because you had some wrong setting on your camera -- no big deal.

If you charge money -- then you are in a whole different league, with a whole different set of expectations, and a whole different level of pressure.

Taking photos for free for people you know and care about is a joy because taking photos is a joy and people you care about being happy with the pictures you give them is a joy.

There are professional athletes -- and there are weekend warriors. Nobody asks the weekend warrior why he doesn't charge anyone who happens to watch them play. He plays for his own personal enjoyment.

Just like a pro athlete makes money doing what for most people is "playing a game" -- the pro photographer makes a living out of doing what for most people is a hobby.

It's not like the brain surgeon where nobody can do that without becoming a brain surgeon.

Lee

LeeBase said:

Your point would make more sense if I wasn't reacting to the
treatment I see some of these "pros" handing out to others.

Click to expand...

By all basic forum standards, what you origionaly posted could best be defined as a "flame post", or basicaly a post with the intent to stirr diss-content against a particular group. You then defend your actions by saying that you are only doing this because of the miss treatment you've seen this group do to others ...

So in a nutshell, you are saying .... when confronted with idividuals who have a diminished charactor, it is acceptable to reduce yourself to thier standards.

While this is sad, I have to regretfully admit that I've been guilty of this too. So do as I have, Learn...Grow..and Move on....You still haven't addressed the issue of a Photo-enthusiast jumping a Paid photog's gig....It's not a point of how good he/she is, its that the newlyweds hired him/her to do a job, It's their responsiblility to prospect out before hand, not after the wedding....If a couple doesn't research who they hire, or simply go with the cheapest bid..then they get out of the job what they put into it....plain and simple....

Yes, there are always cases when a so-called pro comes around who has very little ethics, or morals....But this is usualy self-correcting, any decent photog with high moral standards will move into that market and clean shop...But again...a little pre-screening would have removed him from the prospect pool, and saved the newlyweds much grief.

LeeBase said:

Or if I were trying to make the point that pros in general are no
better than uncle harry with a polaroid.

Lee

Click to expand...

Uncle harry gets rather tiffed when dragged into these family things, so lets not go there...Capesh ?

--
Regards....Matt K
' Why isn't Phonetic spelled the way it sounds ???? '

'You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn't waste either.'....Galen Rowell

Bern Caughey said:

I always advice the couple to put disposable cameras on every table
at the reception for this very reason. They may lose a few of them,
but for the most part they will get images few if any pros could
deliver.

Regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

Click to expand...

While I agree, I guess you didn't see that "King of Queens" episode
--
Regards....Matt K
' Why isn't Phonetic spelled the way it sounds ???? '

'You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn't waste either.'....Galen Rowell

Inflamatory threads like this (beating the pro? -- hired help??) do little except help to chase off the few remaining industry guys left here that are NICE enough to take the time to post in the first place.

This is a pro forum - go pee on your own carpet.

James

LeeBase said:

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Click to expand...

There are tons of threads about "outshooting the pro". Who are they talking about? For every wedding photographer who I would consider a pro, there must be 50 guys with a camera who are paid to show up at the wedding. Some are weekenders, some are "wannabees" and some have studios and are members of PPA (which, at worst, means absolutely nothing).

I think your friend who does "amazing" work might qualify as a pro.

Sorry you've got your panties in a wad, but consider the perspective of those who do wedding photography for their liveliehood. Wedding photography has gone through many revolutions since the days wedding formals of the B&G being taken with 8x10's(I have some negs to prove it). Every revolution has reduced the cost of being a wedding photographer, both in technical expertise and in equipment. The shift to digital is the lastest and one of the biggest changes. Digital includes not only cameras, but also ancilliary equipment. For a couple of hundred bucks, anyone can buy a scanner and printer that will provide them with high quality copies of a photograph. Wedding photographers are getting squeezed by both avid amateurs with sophisticated equipment who give away their photos and by the rampant copying of proofs and prints by the customer.

Wedding photography as it existed in the 70's, 80's and early 90's is gone. At best, the full time wedding photographer will have to change their entire business model. At worst they won't survive. While avid amateurs have been a fact of life for 30 or 40 years, digital has significantly increased their numbers and their threat. It is understandable for some pros to regard them as the "enemy" and make snide remarks. You also need to realize, as I learned in the 20 years as a pro (mostly commercial, but some weddings), a significant portion of the avid amateurs are just plain PITAs.

Doug

James Mogul said:

except help to chase off the few remaining industry guys
left here that are NICE enough to take the time to post in the
first place.

Click to expand...

This is quite true. Threads like this are nothing but static in the s/n ratio. There already have been GREAT guys who cannot stand the attitude demonstrated by this thread. Not the pros that might be threatened by a beginner, but real, seasoned guys who bring value to this forum.

http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously, folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

I agree with pretty much all you said. I have no doubt that some or even lots of amateurs are PITA's. I also understand that not all pros are created equal.

But don't you think that folks should be treated according to who THEY are and not what class of people they belong to?

if any mention of an "any given Sunday" moment or a "lucky set of shots" moment brings out uncalled for derision -- you gotta wonder how these people are handling themselves as pros at their events.

People skills and personality are a big part of pleasing the client -- are they not?

Clearly, though, there is an underlying stress to this industry that I had not formerly understood. It's difficult as the paradigm upone which one makes a living shifts. I understand as a software developer -- and industry that's going through it's own turmoil.

Lee

Doug MacMillan said:

LeeBase said:

Ok...I think I've about had my fill of the snide remarks from the
pro's about folks who shoot at wedding who aren't pro.

Click to expand...

There are tons of threads about "outshooting the pro". Who are
they talking about? For every wedding photographer who I would
consider a pro, there must be 50 guys with a camera who are paid to
show up at the wedding. Some are weekenders, some are "wannabees"
and some have studios and are members of PPA (which, at worst,
means absolutely nothing).

I think your friend who does "amazing" work might qualify as a pro.

Sorry you've got your panties in a wad, but consider the
perspective of those who do wedding photography for their
liveliehood. Wedding photography has gone through many revolutions
since the days wedding formals of the B&G being taken with 8x10's(I
have some negs to prove it). Every revolution has reduced the cost
of being a wedding photographer, both in technical expertise and in
equipment. The shift to digital is the lastest and one of the
biggest changes. Digital includes not only cameras, but also
ancilliary equipment. For a couple of hundred bucks, anyone can
buy a scanner and printer that will provide them with high quality
copies of a photograph. Wedding photographers are getting
squeezed by both avid amateurs with sophisticated equipment who
give away their photos and by the rampant copying of proofs and
prints by the customer.

Wedding photography as it existed in the 70's, 80's and early 90's
is gone. At best, the full time wedding photographer will have to
change their entire business model. At worst they won't survive.
While avid amateurs have been a fact of life for 30 or 40 years,
digital has significantly increased their numbers and their threat.
It is understandable for some pros to regard them as the "enemy"
and make snide remarks. You also need to realize, as I learned in
the 20 years as a pro (mostly commercial, but some weddings), a
significant portion of the avid amateurs are just plain PITAs.

Doug

Click to expand...

I see a difference between a controversial topic and troll behavior. I believe I've simply started a controversial topic -- one that has very valid points.

As to the PITA amateurs -- or the b&g who hire a pro and then ASK their hobby friends to ALSO shoot their wedding -- that's a very good issue to talk about as well.

I haven't ignored it -- there are lots and lots of branches to the issues at hand and we can explore them.

Lee

Matt K said:

LeeBase said:

Your point would make more sense if I wasn't reacting to the
treatment I see some of these "pros" handing out to others.

Click to expand...

By all basic forum standards, what you origionaly posted could best
be defined as a "flame post", or basicaly a post with the intent to
stirr diss-content against a particular group. You then defend your
actions by saying that you are only doing this because of the miss
treatment you've seen this group do to others ...
So in a nutshell, you are saying .... when confronted with
idividuals who have a diminished charactor, it is acceptable to
reduce yourself to thier standards.
While this is sad, I have to regretfully admit that I've been
guilty of this too. So do as I have, Learn...Grow..and Move
on....You still haven't addressed the issue of a Photo-enthusiast
jumping a Paid photog's gig....It's not a point of how good he/she
is, its that the newlyweds hired him/her to do a job, It's their
responsiblility to prospect out before hand, not after the
wedding....If a couple doesn't research who they hire, or simply go
with the cheapest bid..then they get out of the job what they put
into it....plain and simple....
Yes, there are always cases when a so-called pro comes around who
has very little ethics, or morals....But this is usualy
self-correcting, any decent photog with high moral standards will
move into that market and clean shop...But again...a little
pre-screening would have removed him from the prospect pool, and
saved the newlyweds much grief.

Matt K134792 said:

Or if I were trying to make the point that pros in general are no
better than uncle harry with a polaroid.

Lee

Click to expand...

Uncle harry gets rather tiffed when dragged into these family
things, so lets not go there...Capesh ?

--
Regards....Matt K
' Why isn't Phonetic spelled the way it sounds ???? '

'You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day and you only get so
many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and
doesn't waste either.'....Galen Rowell

Click to expand...

Instead of bickering on and on (and yes I am a pro photographer) why don't you do the OVBIOUS right thing next time?

Contact the bride and groom, tell them of your services and how you are better then whatever photographer they may hire and shoot the wedding for next to nothing or free.

BUT

If they hire a pro photographer don't intervene with his work. He's there, on contract, to do a job and is in an industry where things are tough as it is, you showing up with your camera selling prints does not help matters. In fact, with him being the contract wedding photographer its completely possible that he could have LEGAL ACTION AGAINST YOU for breaking a signed agreement that he is the principal photographer. How does that sound?

I think you got enough replies in your first post (that you never responded to). So to save peoples breath, why dont you tell the brides mother that what's done is done. Pay the man, let it be a learning experience for both and maybe you should get into shooting weddings of friends of family as their wedding gift.

Sorry about that. I confused this topic with a similar one on wedding photoghraphy where a guest was giving away photos. In this case.. it's pretty much the same though. If you ever get re-married then you may want to do the shooting yourself

As many mentioned, "Pro" is a term thats thrown around these days. Everyone calls them professionals (remember the dot com boom and web designers? I knew about 4 kids who were pro.. i was sadly one of them!).

With Digital being so cheap now and with people able to buy cameras that provide professional output - you are going to see a lot of this. Pros being outshot my amatures.

You just have to remember that the pro is selling the service, and not just a picture. There are MANY people who can take great photos, and a lot of them are on this msg board.

Going away are the days when nobody but the "pro" can "get the shot". But rather than heap derisive abuse on anyone who suggests that they got some good photos on their "any given Sunday" as if such were impossible -- there should be an explaination -- an advocacy -- of what the pro is providing.

You go to the pro because he's proven his ability to get good shots under a variety of circumstances. Can you have a baby at home? Yes -- and many people do. But most of us want to go to the hospital "just in case" something goes wrong.

If you have a baby with no complications and conclude you could have had it at home with just a midwife -- you don't then conclude that they hospital bill wasn't worth it. You were there for the security.

Another part of this story is the need for the business model to change. Folks with digital cameras are a fact of life. Their ability to get good shots -- even if they are "lucky shots" is a fact of life. That they will give those photos to the b&g is a fact of life. That this phenomena is a growing trend is a threat to print sales -- I believe this is a fact of life.

Now you can respond by deriding the digital shooters etc. Or you can change your business model such that you make your money up front and not on print sales. You sell and explain the reason you go with a pro. The security, the safety -- in addition to the great shots.

Or else you may find yourself losing print sales to the guy who THAT DAY had a set of "lucky shots" that he was giving away.

Lee

nicros said:

Sorry about that. I confused this topic with a similar one on
wedding photoghraphy where a guest was giving away photos. In this
case.. it's pretty much the same though. If you ever get re-married
then you may want to do the shooting yourself

As many mentioned, "Pro" is a term thats thrown around these days.
Everyone calls them professionals (remember the dot com boom and
web designers? I knew about 4 kids who were pro.. i was sadly one
of them!).
With Digital being so cheap now and with people able to buy cameras
that provide professional output - you are going to see a lot of
this. Pros being outshot my amatures.

You just have to remember that the pro is selling the service, and
not just a picture. There are MANY people who can take great
photos, and a lot of them are on this msg board.

Click to expand...

Pros only get beaten one way--someone else gets paid instead of them. It's not a photo contest. It's a business model. The weak get weeded out, but not the way you think. The weeding mechanism is just like any other business--money. Successful pros are those who make a living from their work on a consistent basis--not those who produce the "best" images. For some that means lower prices, lower-end quality, but lower costs. For others it means high prices and high quality--but that almost always comes with high costs.

If you're not shooting at a wedding for pay, you're not a pro. That's no aspersion on your ability to shoot quality images. But quality images are only one small part of succeeding as a pro. Another part is producing acceptable, usable images under the worst and most trying circumstances. Another part is absolute reliability--having the skill and resources to perform as contracted, no matter what goes wrong. Another (probably the biggest) part is the "professional" skill set--contracts, customer service, running a business, and above all selling yourself and generating a steady flow of business. Are there pros who suck at some or all of this? Definitely. But they will either learn and improve, or their business will fail.

You took some great shots at a wedding. That's tough to do. But, you're no pro unless you sell yourself, get the contract, then deliver. You're a successful pro if you make the customer happy and they refer new business to you.

Not just you, but a few others have stepped up and finally made the REAL case for the pro. And it's not "only the pro can make good images".

On any given day, the hobbyist might just have a set that's deemed by some of the audience to be better than the photos they paid for.

But that's NOT the whole story about the value of professional photographers.

Good thoughts and way of putting them forward.

Lee

snowwrestler said:

Pros only get beaten one way--someone else gets paid instead of
them. It's not a photo contest. It's a business model. The weak
get weeded out, but not the way you think. The weeding mechanism
is just like any other business--money. Successful pros are those
who make a living from their work on a consistent basis--not those
who produce the "best" images. For some that means lower prices,
lower-end quality, but lower costs. For others it means high
prices and high quality--but that almost always comes with high
costs.

If you're not shooting at a wedding for pay, you're not a pro.
That's no aspersion on your ability to shoot quality images. But
quality images are only one small part of succeeding as a pro.
Another part is producing acceptable, usable images under the worst
and most trying circumstances. Another part is absolute
reliability--having the skill and resources to perform as
contracted, no matter what goes wrong. Another (probably the
biggest) part is the "professional" skill set--contracts, customer
service, running a business, and above all selling yourself and
generating a steady flow of business. Are there pros who suck at
some or all of this? Definitely. But they will either learn and
improve, or their business will fail.

You took some great shots at a wedding. That's tough to do. But,
you're no pro unless you sell yourself, get the contract, then
deliver. You're a successful pro if you make the customer happy
and they refer new business to you.

Click to expand...

My wedding is coming up next year, and I just hope I dont get a photographer anywhere near as egotistical and arrogant as you.

On such a personal day, I'm more concerned about getting a photographer who can capture the moment, an expression, or the emotion of the event than one who has spent thousands and done years of training.

To me, photography is a mixture of ability and art - some people can have all the technical ability in the world but have no flair. Others are just born with this "knack" for capturing a moment in time, they may have limited technical ability but are full-fledged artists.

--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

Oh my goodness - my wedding is next year and I'm horrified to think people have that much to spend on one day. Good grief. $40000!!! Maybe my perspective is totally wrong then - because there is no WAY I would ever spend anywhere near that much on my wedding, so proportionally I would spend nowhere near that much on a photographer either.

My apologies, I shall have to find a third-world forum where the budgets are more like mine.
--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

LeeBase said:

But don't you think that folks should be treated according to who
THEY are and not what class of people they belong to?

Click to expand...

We agree here. There's too much classification, be it "wannabes" or "pros".

LeeBase said:

if any mention of an "any given Sunday" moment or a "lucky set of
shots" moment brings out uncalled for derision -- you gotta wonder
how these people are handling themselves as pros at their events.

Click to expand...

Good point. I think some are blowing off steam on this forum. This is a "pro talk" forum inhabited mostly by amateurs. It tends to squeeze out the pros who hope this would be a place to talk among peers instead of being being used by amateurs to "ask the pro". It's the Internet for gosh sakes, but perhaps some feel a little territorial. I used to talk shop over a beer or two with my fellow pros. Sometimes we'd cry in our beer and rant, but we were always courteous and professional in front of our customers.

LeeBase said:

People skills and personality are a big part of pleasing the client
-- are they not?

Click to expand...

Absolutely, and perhaps nowhere more so than in wedding photography. You're so visible, so "on stage".

LeeBase said:

Clearly, though, there is an underlying stress to this industry
that I had not formerly understood. It's difficult as the paradigm
upone which one makes a living shifts. I understand as a software
developer -- and industry that's going through it's own turmoil.

Click to expand...

I'm happy if I helped you see it from a different perspective. Make no mistake, I'm not defending "pros", nor do I think they need protection from amateurs. It's the poor guy who's just getting by that's most likely to lash out. Unfortunately, statistics show that most professional photographers fit in the "just barely getting by" category.

I think high end wedding photographers will do fine. I think there will be a constant inflow of weekenders available to serve the low end of the market. The middle will get squeezed, folks having an average sized middle class wedding will have a harder time finding a competent reasonable middle tier wedding photographer.

The irony here Lee is that I left professional photography and went back to school to earn a B.S. degree in Computer Science. I've been a developer since 1987, working on all platforms. I guess I peaked in 1998 when I accepted my current job at a fairly hefty salary increase. The first two years were OK, but things started to stagnate in 2000. Raises have been insignificant. Bean counters are saying things are getting better, but where I live, both in the computer field and in other areas, things don't look good. We may be replacing some of the millions of jobs lost, but what isn't mentioned is the old job was a high level technical job and the new job requires a blue vest.

Despite what the gov't says, things are bad all over.

Doug

Natinha said:

My wedding is coming up next year, and I just hope I dont get a
photographer anywhere near as egotistical and arrogant as you.

On such a personal day, I'm more concerned about getting a
photographer who can capture the moment, an expression, or the
emotion of the event than one who has spent thousands and done
years of training.

To me, photography is a mixture of ability and art - some people
can have all the technical ability in the world but have no flair.
Others are just born with this "knack" for capturing a moment in
time, they may have limited technical ability but are full-fledged
artists.

--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

Click to expand...

--

Well I did an average 0f 50 weddings a year. I have hundreds of references from brides. I have never had one complain. What do you know about my ability? The reason I did my homework and spend years to get properly trained is to provide my CUSTOMER with the highest quality, most afordable product in my area.

This allowed me to capture the moment in a nonintrusive manor both for formals and photojournalist all done with the latest technical knowledge, best equipment I could buy and the little bit of talent my GOD gave me. I hired only the best photographers in the area for second/bw photographers. Limited technical ability will not get you what you want.
But from your note you will never, never, ever have me for a wedding
photographer you have flunked my first interview.

Let the light in! Walt
[email protected]

Dude. You sound like an idiot. Take it down a notch.

rrwin said:

Ricardo41 said:

In short, the amateur delivers a record of the event, but the pro
delivers memories - using the power of his artistic imagination to
do so.

ricardo

Click to expand...

Before you strain your arm patting yourself on the back too much
about your “artistic memories” ask people who have been married for
a number of years about how often they look their wedding photos.
It will vary by the length of their marriage but most will tell you
that over time they look more often at the snapshots taken by
friends and relatives. The real memories are in those snapshots
because they show the real side of people – who was there and what
they were doing. After years of marriage you care less about the
artistry and more about the reality. Your life moves on to photos
of your kids, vacations and special events. You might pull out the
wedding photos on your anniversary to have a laugh and wonder who
those people are. Don’t underestimate the value of those who use
photography to “record” a personal event. There is a place for
both the pro and the amateur at these events and since they see
things from different a prospective, both have great contributions
to make.

Randy

Click to expand...

That is a great point, and/but there are pros out there who focus less on formal family portraits at weddings and more on the unique moments that make up the wedding. Denis Reggie can be seen here talking about finding those special moments that make a wedding intimate and memorable:
http://www.pdngallery.com/legends/reggie/

I found his comments on each photo especially inspiring!

--
Carrie Viohl

http://www.carrieviohl.com