Too much shutter lag with digital rebel............

Hawkman · Mar 10, 2004

Daniella said:
well, perhaps you should try a 300d and then you will understand
taht it does not work as a 10d.

I know the 300d doesn't let you select servo mode, except in sport mode. But that is a different issue than predictive focusing vs. not.

You certainly may not get focused flight shots because the camera doesn't kick in servo mode consistently, but when it does, you will want to use the predictive focusing in the situation were talking about. Your still better off and will get more keepers than any other way IMO.

If predictive focusing is not being used, maybe part of this observed AI focus inconsistency is attributable to that.

Gene

Daniella68313 said:
You just cannot force the camera to use AI servo easily. sometimes
it does sometimes it don't.

You can use the servo in sport mode but then you loose everything
else..ISO, shutter, F, WB..you name it..not even raw support.

read the dpreview review for the 300d and you will have a better idea.

GAO said:

Thats what I am confused about. What Paul is doing as he describes
it, by fully depressing the shutter and not continuously tracking
and taking a sequence of shots, sounds like attempting to get
oneshot out of AI focus mode on a moving subject, which I am not
sure what the outcome would be, but if succeeded, would be affected
by shutter lag. But it sounds like he had a long day, so maybe his
description isn't accurate. Anyhow, tomorrow.

Gene

Daniella said:

10D and 300d don't work the same way.

GAO said:

You said single shot Paul. I took that as oneshot, which on the 10d
that is AI servo/AI off, no predictive focusing at all. I think you
meant single frame as opposed to continuous frame. Since you are
using AI fousing that should take care of any shutter lag, unless
the AI it hasn't kicked into servo mode. That may be a possibility.
I use the servo mode on the 10D and get good results coming, going
or sideways.

Gene

GAO said:

Daniella said:

GAO said:

else you will see shutter lag between when you half depress the
shutter button and AF locks, and when you fully depress it and the
shutter (after lag) fires.

Servo mode has predictive focusing that will continue to focus baed
on the motion during this lag period.

Click to expand...

oh really?

I have to try this.

Click to expand...

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Click to expand...

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Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

Click to expand...

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Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

Click to expand...

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

Click to expand...

--
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

The Big Bad said:
I really dont know why someone would ever not use multi frame mode
personally. I find I can always fire off just one frame if i want
to and I have more than one shot at my disposal if need be.

With film sure, you might burn through a roll, but with digital,
theres no real risk or cost if you accidently fire off two frames
instead of 1
--
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just not with Ai servo focus, mainly because i can't use it consistently without being in sports mode and then i loose all control. What Gene said is what i was trying to say, the lens locks focus then stops down and the shutter opens, this is what i call shutter lag. Not sure what your calling AF lag as once the camer/lens locks focus and takes the pic there should not be any out of focus shots if your camera had a zero amount of lag time or near it like on the 1ds, regardless of how long it takes to lock focus.
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PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

I just wanted to know if the more expensive cameras were better at shots like this were the subject is moving quickly towards you. I did get a few shots that were very usuable with the subject flying at me and i got plenty that were great were the subject was moving parallel to me. I think some people didn't catch the sarcasm in my subject, the shutter is fast on this camera.
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Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

Predictive AF has been around for almost as long as AF has. I had a Nikon 8008 over 13 years ago that had it. The trouble is finding a way to get the 300D to consistantly go into predictive AF/AI Servo mode. Try experimenting with a car. Just go out to any road and set yourself up so that the cars are coming toward you. Just keep the shutter half pressed and try to get the 300D to track them. Now I know that birds are much smaller subjects and they may not track the same. So after you try this with the cars and get the feel for it then try the birds.

Some other things. Use only the center AF sensor if you can on the 300D. Set up the camera for manual exposure as well. AF takes time away from you but so does exposure. The camera has to take some time to calculate exposure as well. Experiment with this and see if it helps.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
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'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Daniella said:
I am not sure what is the shutter lag but from my impression I
would say 1/2s, maybe less. I am probably wrong but I can't find
this info in dpreview review or elsewhere.

You must also consider the lag you create between the focus lock
and the time you actualy fully press the shutter. You must really
not wait, but I am sure you know this already.

Judging from your equipement and the quality of yoru photos..I
think you owe it to yourself to get a decent camera but maybe you
better wait a little and see what will be available this year?
camera will soon go down in price I am pretty sure of it. Not sure
I would want a 10D because they also have focusing problem. what's
next? a 1ds? if you have the cash for it..I am sure you wont
regret the switch

yes i know not to wait and i don't wait, i press the button period. There is no hesitation on my part, sometimes it doesn't lock and i just try again, but that is rare with this lens and camera, if the center focus point is even close to the bird it locks and fires, doesn't appear to have a shutter lag time, but i'm sure it does as does the 1ds and i'm sure it's slower than that camera as it should be, i think it is a combination of the time it takes my finger to go from half press postion to full press and shutter lag. Even though i don't stop at the half press position there is still some time between the two positions, i will try to push it a little faster, probably break my shutter button!

Thanks Daniella
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PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

GAO said:
Gene

The Big Bad said:

Now I use a 10D and dont use my shutter button for anything except
to trigger the shutter. I use the AE lock button on the back of
the camera to AF. works the same as a half press of the actual
shutter button.

lets my shutter fire anytime I want, in focus or not

Anyways, what your having happen is that when you take you release
the shutter button and then press it again, the camera is having to
AF between each frame. the 10D/300D arent blazing quick with the
AF as im sure you realize

Try this, switch your lens to MF, set the shutter speed up pretty
high such as 1/1000th and see just how quick the responce is, its
basically instant for all measureable purposes

Also keep in mind with servo mode AF, the body is trying to predict
where the focus should be for each frame. It of course wouldnt
work to lock focus where the subject is at the itme of focus since
in the time it locks and takes the shot, an object in motion is not
always in focus.

the 1D is alot faster at this and with the right lens, such as a
300 2.8, it can track and predictively focus on a subject moving
186 MPH at it. So basically its able to change the focus between
each shot at 8 FPS. Amazing huh, thats what all that money buys
you.

--
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Click to expand...

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

hey Gene, if i shoot wide open i will of course have less depth of field, but the time it takes the lens to close the aperture will be zero, i will just try stopping down more for more depth of field and also try using servo mode, sure wish i could select it now.

Thanks Gene.
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Stan · Mar 10, 2004

..release using a custom wired remote. The button could be anywhere you want on the camera. Other possible benefits.

Stan

Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

AF lag is the amount of time it takes to actually lock focus. Shutter lag is the amount of delay between the press of the shutter and the actual exposure.

Normally AF lag is the major culprit here. That is why predictive AF was invented. It helps do away with AF lag by tracking the subject and predicting where it will be when the exposure is made.

It is too bad that Canon made the decision to make AI servo AF so hard to use on the 300D.

--
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Chuck
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'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

This will probably make little difference. Although some experiments may be in order here. I think that the loss of DOF may be more of a problem than the amount of time to close the aperture.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
Chuck
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'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Daniella said:
osprey coming is definitly too slow shutter speed. I can'T freeze
a bird's wing at that speed and surely not a bird that is coming
directly at me. They fly real fast.

When the birds is flying on the side, you are panning and following
the bird's motion. The bird stay relatively at the same focusing
distance for a much longer time too.

Do you have the same problem at 1/1600s with birds coming at you?
that woudl really help to see if it is shutter lag or just too slow
shutter.

here's one that is more oof than the slow shutter speed shot, the problem with this one is it was shot at f6.3 so the depth of field is smaller so the bird will fly out of focus faster. i'll just leave the link. 1/2500th of a second.

http://www.pbase.com/image/26798588
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Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

Stan said:
..release using a custom wired remote. The button could be
anywhere you want on the camera. Other possible benefits.

Stan

The time problem here has little to do with the speed of the release button itself. It has to do with the time it takes the camera to AF and then to do the calculations necessary to make the exposure and to actually release the shutter.

When you think about it it is amazing that it happens as fast as it does.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
Chuck
http://www.pbase.com/candrask

'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Daniella said:
Doug Kerr said:

PaulyOly said:

I'm talking about the focus lock beep, so we are talking about the
same thing, i don't wait for a focus lock beep, i just push the
button, i have the picture fairly well infocus from prefocusing and
then start pushing the button as i've stated before, so it's either
miss focus or shutter lag, i'm thinking shutter lag, so what is the
shutter lag time on the rebel?

Click to expand...

On my 300D, if I have prefocused with half press, then from the
time I full press the shutter release until the shot is taken is
about 120 ms.

If I do a full press to begin with, I don't know what the time is
from the beep until the shutter is fired. I had never been thinking
about focus implications of shutter release delay.

I assume AI servo can't help us here, as doubtless it stops
tracking once the shot is committed by the full press (since, for
example, the mirrors and diaphragm start to move then).

Best regards,

Doug

Click to expand...

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Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
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Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

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Like i said Daniella, i'm not waiting to here any beep, i'm sorry i said beep because i don't even have my beep turned on half the time, so the only lag time on my part must be how fast my finger presses through the shutter button, from half press position to full press, once again just to reiterate for anyone just reading i am NOT stopping at half press position! Sorry i feel i can't imphasize that enough, most people are still in the point and shoot camera frame of mind where you actually need to wait to confirm a focus lock before you fully press the shutter.

Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

PaulyOly said:
I just wanted to know if the more expensive cameras were better at
shots like this were the subject is moving quickly towards you. I
did get a few shots that were very usuable with the subject flying
at me and i got plenty that were great were the subject was moving
parallel to me. I think some people didn't catch the sarcasm in my
subject, the shutter is fast on this camera.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

Yes, the professional cameras are MUCH better at this than the 300D. But then they are 3-4 times as expensive. No pro in his/her right mind would tolerate the problems you are having here. That is why the pros spend the money on the faster cameras. They HAVE to get the shot and not waste time doing it. Time is money and the faster cameras are well worth the price.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
Chuck
http://www.pbase.com/candrask

'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Pretty smart these cameras are, i wish i could have AI servo selective like on the 10d, think i might sell the rebel just to get this feature. I can of course shoot in sports mode, but then it will select whatever aperture it wants and i'm stuck at iso400. I will try tricking servo and holding it down to keep it going, but i find doing this the camera has a hard time picking up the subject, it's easier if your in sports mode and you half press and hold over your subject.

I will have to try some tommorrow as it was very cloudy this morning and i like to shoot with nice sun shine. I'm sure the osprey were still fishing though.

thanks

RATPhoto · Mar 10, 2004

There is of course some shutter lag. And unfortunately it is significant for this scenario. Say the bird is doing 60 miles per hour straight at you. That is 88 feet a second. If the shutter lag is a quite snappy 1/10th of a second, that is still almost 9 feet.

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Chuck A · Mar 10, 2004

PaulyOly said:
Daniella said:

Doug Kerr said:

PaulyOly said:

I'm talking about the focus lock beep, so we are talking about the
same thing, i don't wait for a focus lock beep, i just push the
button, i have the picture fairly well infocus from prefocusing and
then start pushing the button as i've stated before, so it's either
miss focus or shutter lag, i'm thinking shutter lag, so what is the
shutter lag time on the rebel?

Click to expand...

On my 300D, if I have prefocused with half press, then from the
time I full press the shutter release until the shot is taken is
about 120 ms.

If I do a full press to begin with, I don't know what the time is
from the beep until the shutter is fired. I had never been thinking
about focus implications of shutter release delay.

I assume AI servo can't help us here, as doubtless it stops
tracking once the shot is committed by the full press (since, for
example, the mirrors and diaphragm start to move then).

Best regards,

Doug

Click to expand...

--
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

Like i said Daniella, i'm not waiting to here any beep, i'm sorry i
said beep because i don't even have my beep turned on half the
time, so the only lag time on my part must be how fast my finger
presses through the shutter button, from half press position to
full press, once again just to reiterate for anyone just reading i
am NOT stopping at half press position! Sorry i feel i can't
imphasize that enough, most people are still in the point and shoot
camera frame of mind where you actually need to wait to confirm a
focus lock before you fully press the shutter.

My recommendation is to try holding the shutter half pressed to give the camera time to go into predictive AF mode. Try tracking the bird with the shutter half pressed. This is what AI servo AF is for. Maybe the 300 D needs you to do this to make it go into this mode.

Also, in another part of this thread I talk about some other experiments that might help.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
Chuck
http://www.pbase.com/candrask

'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

georgj · Mar 10, 2004

Somebody posted this a while ago and I tried it and it works :

"As most of you know you want to use the continous focus (AI servo) for tracking moving things. It is only available in Sports mode, with all it's limitations. Many of us force the cam into servo mode in on of the creative modes, and I manage to do that most of the time rather well. But it is a PIA keeping the shutter button half pressed until that bird comes flying by. What I do is this: having in mind that the remote control has two separate buttons, 1 for focussing, 1 for triggering the shutter, and is connected to the camera with a 2,5 stereo plug, I knew that the 'focussing button' shorts the sleeve and the ring. I had an old 2,5 mono plug in my drawer, this in practice connects ring and sleeve (as there is no ring). Put it in the plug opening for the remote control on the camera and voila, it is instantly focussing. Now do your own servo-kick-in-trick (waving your hand in front of the camera, zooming in/out, slowly move the camera or whatever). The camera stays in servo mode until you turn it of or pull the plug out."

The average human reaction time is about 300ms. You can check yours at http://www.gophergas.com/funstuff/reaction.htm
Regards,

Georg

The Big Bad · Mar 10, 2004

Woz2000 said:
Flash situation would warrant not shooting more than required....if
you need the flash to be ready instead of recharging!

better beamer allows your flash to fire with less power, not extend the reach as most people think. By using less power the recycle time is lower and you can shoot multi mode.
--
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The Big Bad · Mar 10, 2004

put the camera on manual focus, and find some sorta action for a test, prefocus near the spot, though it doesnt really matter, sharpness isnt what your testing, just timing.

hit the shutter when you think the time is "right" see if its taking the shot when you think it should.

I know for me it seems the instant I hit the shutter I hear the shutter. its as fast as I can comprehend

--
http://www.pbase.com/bigbad

Jarl Sandberg · Mar 10, 2004

Sorry, but the sarcasm was lost on me, I was just impressed by your photos.

--jalle

PaulyOly said:
I just wanted to know if the more expensive cameras were better at
shots like this were the subject is moving quickly towards you. I
did get a few shots that were very usuable with the subject flying
at me and i got plenty that were great were the subject was moving
parallel to me. I think some people didn't catch the sarcasm in my
subject, the shutter is fast on this camera.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

Too much shutter lag with digital rebel............

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