X2D is real??

maxnardi said:

Harold66 said:

I think it is very much the case

As much as I like the X1D aesthetics and feeling the hand, the camera was ridiculously flawed and the price of the lenses is waaayy up there when Fuji offers much cheaper lenses and focal lengths much suited to my work

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true if you don't need leaf shutter and VERY good color reproduction: in my (and my client's) opinion and the best in the market (they don't know which camera I use but they recognize the accuracy).

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It's been a while since I tested a 'blad under Phocus, but when I did it, the accuracy wasn't very good, but the color sure was pretty.

maxnardi said:

maxnardi said:

so I got a Fuji Gfx 50SII which is a much better camera than the X2D in almost every respect

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Harold66 said:

uji lenses get great reviews and are significantly cheaper than the ones for the Hasselblad

the Hasselblad is supposed to have great, more neutral color tones but this is a very high price to pay for an advantage which is not that difficult to reduce in post

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Maybe, this is just Hasselblad marketing delusion, but from what i understood, HB does at least two things:

-calibrate each sensor. This apparently means that the minute variances between pixels, due to manufacturing of the semiconductor layers in each pixel and e.g. thickness fluctuations of the filter dyes overlaying each sensor pixel, are equilized. Without running such tests at home, and coming up with a pixel level matrix for doing this in e.g. Lightroom (is LR even capable of doing this?), the results might well differ.

.Applying the Hasselblad Natural colour solution. HB won't exactly tell what they do (for good reasons I guess), but somehow, by this they can convert the information contained in the binary values for the pixels in pleasing colours. This is different from just applying a general setting, like a film emulation, or a colour profile. It seems to guess for each pixel, or pixel patch, what colour the camera actually saw.

From the results, it does not seem to be trivial to mimic this in post.

thyl said:

Harold66 said:

uji lenses get great reviews and are significantly cheaper than the ones for the Hasselblad

the Hasselblad is supposed to have great, more neutral color tones but this is a very high price to pay for an advantage which is not that difficult to reduce in post

Click to expand...

Maybe, this is just Hasselblad marketing delusion, but from what i understood, HB does at least two things:

-calibrate each sensor. This apparently means that the minute variances between pixels, due to manufacturing of the semiconductor layers in each pixel and e.g. thickness fluctuations of the filter dyes overlaying each sensor pixel, are equilized. Without running such tests at home, and coming up with a pixel level matrix for doing this in e.g. Lightroom (is LR even capable of doing this?), the results might well differ.

.Applying the Hasselblad Natural colour solution. HB won't exactly tell what they do (for good reasons I guess), but somehow, by this they can convert the information contained in the binary values for the pixels in pleasing colours. This is different from just applying a general setting, like a film emulation, or a colour profile. It seems to guess for each pixel, or pixel patch, what colour the camera actually saw.

From the results, it does not seem to be trivial to mimic this in post.

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Well, my guess is all vendors calibrate each sensor.

Pixel variations would be visible as noise, and I have not seen any indications that Hasselblad's sensors would be less noisy than other sensors made by Sony. We may need to keep in mind that most noise is coming from the variation of incidence of light and that noise essentially always dominates over other sources of noise except extreme darks.

Regarding Phocus, I don't know...

But I tried to reproduce Phocus rendition of one of the DPReview's test samples in Lightroom, using a profile I generated using Lumariver Profile Designer. It was mainly a white balance and tone curve job, with some adjustment of saturation.


I would not think Phocus does hocus pocus. What they have a set of decent profiles and some nice 'looks' applied on top of the profiles.

Best regards

Erik

thyl said:

Harold66 said:

uji lenses get great reviews and are significantly cheaper than the ones for the Hasselblad

the Hasselblad is supposed to have great, more neutral color tones but this is a very high price to pay for an advantage which is not that difficult to reduce in post

Click to expand...

Maybe, this is just Hasselblad marketing delusion, but from what i understood, HB does at least two things:

-calibrate each sensor. This apparently means that the minute variances between pixels, due to manufacturing of the semiconductor layers in each pixel and e.g. thickness fluctuations of the filter dyes overlaying each sensor pixel, are equilized. Without running such tests at home, and coming up with a pixel level matrix for doing this in e.g. Lightroom (is LR even capable of doing this?), the results might well differ.

.Applying the Hasselblad Natural colour solution. HB won't exactly tell what they do (for good reasons I guess), but somehow, by this they can convert the information contained in the binary values for the pixels in pleasing colours. This is different from just applying a general setting, like a film emulation, or a colour profile. It seems to guess for each pixel, or pixel patch, what colour the camera actually saw.

From the results, it does not seem to be trivial to mimic this in post.

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Pixel response nonlinearity is so low in modern cameras that I have stopped reporting it.

JimKasson said:

Pixel response nonlinearity is so low in modern cameras that I have stopped reporting it.

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Thanks for that info.

Best regards

Erik

JimKasson said:

maxnardi said:

I'm reasonably sure that X2D has 100Mp WItH IBIS.

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How do you know that?

JimKasson said:

I bet even on better AF, maybe with eye af.
Hope on some sort of video RAW output.

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I would say that 100 MP is a very reasonable guess.

With IBIS, I don't know. That would entail a lot of R&D effort in an area where Hasselblad did not ventured before.

Also, I don't know if IBIS is a necessary feature. Obviously, in some cases it can be a game changer. For available light, I think that 24x36 mm systems may be a better choice as most lenses are faster and perfect sharpness may not be the dominant issue.

Personally, my MFD usage was strictly on tripod, to the extent that I don't even have a release button on my Hasselblad (555/ELD), only an electronic cable release.

I am not so sure about X2D rumors. I would certainly see an X2D, as I think that Hasselblad needs a 102 MP camera to be feasible in the long run.

I did a simple demo some time ago, comparing my four present day cameras:





Somewhat to my surprise, it seemed that aliasing played a major role with viewers. The image with the least aliasing, 'D', was the preferred one with all users. 'B' was preferred over 'A', albeit less sharp. All the images were resampled to around 35 MP, with image 'C' being up-sampled from 24 MP and all the others down-sampled.

Image 'A' was shot on 42 MP 24x36 mm with a very sharp lens. Image 'B' was shot with the same camera, with a decent quality 24-105/4 zoom lens. Some posters preferred 'B' over 'A', indicating that unaliased rendering may be preferred over rendering that is aliased, but less sharp.

This is obviously just an example. But it may indicate that 'proper' sensor resolution may matter.

In this case, 'E' was the Hasselblad 555/ELD. All posters preferred 'C' that was shot on the 24 MP A7II over the image 'E'. The A7II has some optical low pass filtering.

My take is that 'low resolution' sensors need OLP filtering and it takes pretty high sensor resolution to get around that need.

But, it seems that most MFD shooters don't care about aliasing. I don't know why?

Some possible explanations:

• Aliasing often yields 'crispness' and possibly also strong color.
• It may also be that less than perfect technique may mask some aliasing issues.

To me, it seems that my A7rIV yields cleaner rendition than my A7rII. But the A7rII was pretty much aliasing free with zooms and before I started to use Jim Kasson's focusing methods, that is using magnified live view with peaking at maximum magnification and focusing at shooting aperture.

• It is very hard to get 'peaking' on full aperture at full magnification.
• The great majority of lenses have significant focus shift when stopping down. So focusing wide open introduces a focusing error.

Over the last years I shifted from zooms to primes on my A7rII and also switched to using peaking combined with magnified live view at shooting aperture and I got rewarded with color aliasing.

It seems that shooting with the A7rIV reduced that issue.

Just to say, I would really like to look into 50 MP in MFD compared to 102 MP, but renting equipment and setting upp proper experiments would be prohibitively expensive here in Sweden. It is not only about renting gear, it is also about making best use of it.

Best regards

Erik



--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles

maxnardi said:

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I don't understand the smiley. The post I responded to suggested that Hasselblad is calibrating out PRNU.

maxnardi said:

maxnardi said:

-calibrate each sensor. This apparently means that the minute variances between pixels, due to manufacturing of the semiconductor layers in each pixel and e.g. thickness fluctuations of the filter dyes overlaying each sensor pixel, are equilized.

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I am contending that that is a "problem" not worth fixing.

I am not contending that Hasselblad doesn't do extensive calibration.

I just “know” about IBIS

I’m not that fan of 100MP (owning an H6D-100c) but the benefit of 100mp 44x33 sensor are welcome.

1- faster read out and faster acquisition (faster fps for portrait and fashion is good )

2- 4k video is welcome too

3- better af is a big plus (let me skip FF cause i’m already in X ballarla with my 907x gear)

maxnardi said:

I just “know” about IBIS

I’m not that fan of 100MP (owning an H6D-100c) but the benefit of 100mp 44x33 sensor are welcome.

1- faster read out and faster acquisition (faster fps for portrait and fashion is good )

2- 4k video is welcome too

3- better af is a big plus (let me skip FF cause i’m already in X ballarla with my 907x gear)

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The new Sony 100MP sensor has the advantage of dual gain. Comparing GFX50R with GFX100, we see a one-stop benefit above ISO 400 (P2P measurements).

Since you are "in the know" , can you tell us whether it will have OSPDAF?

thyl said:

Harold66 said:

uji lenses get great reviews and are significantly cheaper than the ones for the Hasselblad

the Hasselblad is supposed to have great, more neutral color tones but this is a very high price to pay for an advantage which is not that difficult to reduce in post

Click to expand...

Maybe, this is just Hasselblad marketing delusion, but from what i understood, HB does at least two things:

-calibrate each sensor. This apparently means that the minute variances between pixels, due to manufacturing of the semiconductor layers in each pixel and e.g. thickness fluctuations of the filter dyes overlaying each sensor pixel, are equilized. Without running such tests at home, and coming up with a pixel level matrix for doing this in e.g. Lightroom (is LR even capable of doing this?), the results might well differ.

.Applying the Hasselblad Natural colour solution. HB won't exactly tell what they do (for good reasons I guess), but somehow, by this they can convert the information contained in the binary values for the pixels in pleasing colours. This is different from just applying a general setting, like a film emulation, or a colour profile. It seems to guess for each pixel, or pixel patch, what colour the camera actually saw.

Click to expand...

i’m in the beta testing team for phocus and i’m in the photo industry (still life, fashion and architecture) by nearly 3o years 8with clients from CK to Wella just to name a pair of known brands…).

I’ve used and use nearly anything: from film to the first Imacon backs, from Canon to Phase one, to Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Hasselblad H and X… I can tell 2 things about H:

1- color is as “perfect” as possible just out of camera (crucial in product photography)

2- skiing are beautyfull

3- Phocus is a narrower tool compared to Capture One or even Lightroom but the team developing it is really listening to feedbacks and the tools in it are developed woth professionals in mind: from file naming mechanics (who make huge catalogs know how naming is important, to color management, .. it just make work straight ne fast.

You don’t find bells and whistles in Phocus and definitely need a Photoshop (or similar) passage for nearly any ADV, and campaign work (but who don’t make it?).

I can say that H is way cheaper for me (taking time in the count) than working with any other brand I’ve used.

not for casual shooting or fast low quality needed services.

thyl said:

From the results, it does not seem to be trivial to mimic this in post.

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https://whitestudios.it/
https://artworklab.it

I hope you are right! That would be awesome!!
How about release date? Any speculation?

Not for sure… but I guess this June.

I’m 90% (not 100 ) sure it has.

Do you also know if there are new lenses in the P line to be announced?

Not shure what focal lenght but I can say 2 or 3 new lenses are coming

maxnardi said:

3- Phocus is a narrower tool compared to Capture One or even Lightroom but the team developing it is really listening to feedbacks and the tools in it are developed woth professionals in mind: from file naming mechanics (who make huge catalogs know how naming is important

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sorry I almost spat my coffee out over that

surely, file importing / naming is hopelessly limited in Phocus?? You can’t even, say, dynamically create a date-based folder. Way, way behind CaptureOne or Lightroom. What I do is just a simple import to the nominated folder, converting to fff, then going to PhotoSupreme, import from the Phocus folder but this time with intelligent, token based renaming and moving to a folder in my date-based hierarchy, then reopening the files in Phocus from these folders. Incredibly convoluted, but unless I’m missing some cunningly concealed functionality in Phocus, unavoidable….

It's real, will be announced in two months, price is a little bit higher than x1d2 price, not much.

Phase AF, 100 mp.

On price I can guess 8,5k € in EU countries.

100mp

ibis

4k video

phase AF (with eye af)

5+ fps

dual card slot

2-3 new prime lenses 4k+ € with focus clutch a la olympus pro


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Opera207 said:

It's real, will be announced in two months, price is a little bit higher than x1d2 price, not much.

Phase AF, 100 mp.

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Great news!