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Baryta paper comparison

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binarybob said:
Here is another 100% Cotton rag based Baryta paper you might consider as well, it's a newer addition.
Click to expand...
I was going to list that, but the Ilford website is vague, and indeed sounds like a fudge: "Traditional Baryta-like surface" (emphasis added; see https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-gloss/). And then the data sheet says "a baryta-like surface" and "Look and feel of traditional baryta photo paper" (see https://ilford.com/wp-dev/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/GPGFG_v3_19032019.pdf). So it sounds to me like Ilford is admitting, 'This is not truly baryta.'

Ilford also lists, among its "Galerie Fine Art Baryta" papers, Gold Fibre Pearl. Ilford's website and data sheet have similar weasel-words for it (https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-pearl/).
 
Some of you (Mark McCormick, Mike Earussi, maybe others) suggest using a UV light to check OBA content. Having previously followed your suggestion, I'd bought a UV flashlight. I'm a bit concerned that my inexperienced eyes plus differences in paper surfaces may skew my results, but FWIW, just now I quickly looked at a bunch of prints with my UV flashlight, and my off the cuff impressions (without careful comparisons) are:

* strong fluorescence: Ilford Galerie Gold Mono Silk, Mitsubishi Pictorico White Film, and Red River Polar Matte

* substantial fluorescence, but less strong: Hahnemühle Photo Gloss Baryta, Red River San Gabriel SemiGloss Baryta 2.0, and various Canon, Epson, Ilford, and Red River RC glossy, satin, luster, and pearl papers

* medium fluorescence: Epson Ultra Premium Matte

* medium to low fluorescence: Canon Pro Premium Matte PM-101

* low to very low fluorescence: Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta

* very low to no fluorescence: various Inkpress and Red River metallic papers

* no fluorescence: Canson Platine and Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag

Oh, and by the way, none of these papers looked anywhere near as cool as my drawings with the Crayola fluorescent crayons that Ricky B. put my onto in second grade. He told me they were "glow in the dark". They weren't, and I was very disappointed. My dad realized they were probably 'glow in black light' and brought me a 'black light' i.e. UV tube. Wow!
 
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SantaFeBill said:
Did you test the Red River Palo Duro Baryta Fiber wit the UV light?
Click to expand...
No, I don't have any of that paper. The only baryta papers I had in the set I reviewed were the older, apparently-discontinued Red River San Gabriel SemiGloss Baryta 2.0, plus Hahnemühle Photo Gloss Baryta and Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta.
 
I'm looking at papers and came across this - just wondering if it's current or is there an update

Thanks
 
FrankGr said:
I'm looking at papers and came across this - just wondering if it's current or is there an update
Click to expand...
Per the request, I've updated and expanded the underlying chart; first, the baryta papers that I think may be available as of late 2021:

1e2a1c33fb7640a6940772967df7b6bb.jpg

Then the ones that are gone:

856f0fc1c2824646b7b62272faed3aa1.jpg

Notes

* Simply Elegant Gold Fiber is, according to some, the closest replacement for the much-lamented / now-gone Canson Baryta Photographique (original version) / Epson Legacy Baryta (original version) / Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta / Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fibre Silk. I have not tried this paper.

* FWIW, another paper I'd really like to try is Red River Big Bend Baryta.

* Ilford's website still lists Galerie Prestige Gold Fibre Silk as being available, but I see no evidence that it is available in normal commercial channels.

* Innova's website says that Exhibition Photo Baryta is OBA-free, but Mark McCormick, whose expertise I respect highly, insists that in fact it contains OBAs.

* Epson Legacy Baryta II was announced quite some time back, but seems little if any available, at least in sheets, in normal commercial channels.

* Mostly I've just compiled data. The fraction of the current list that I've actually tried has shrunk from the original post. Among those currently available, the only one I can recommend from sufficient personal experience is Hahnemühle Photo Gloss Baryta. Papers I've tried that 'ain't dere no more' include Epson Legacy Baryta, Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta (a favorite, still have a little, saved for the right need), Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fibre Silk (had less luck, suspect ICC profile issue), and Red River San Gabriel SemiGloss Baryta 2.0 (surface was not to my taste).

* Arguably the baryta papers are less suitable for those of us using dye inks. For example, based on ICC profiles I made for Epson Claria ink, L* minimum is about 10 for Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta and Epson Legacy Baryta (original), versus L* minimum = 5 for Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag.
 
Many thanks for this. Appreciated..

fyi there’s a page on the Freestyle site that has a lot of different paper info/specs, which you may find interesting
 
ChicagoRob said:
ChicagoRob said:
* FWIW, another paper I'd really like to try is Red River Big Bend Baryta.
Click to expand...
Likewise. I have it on my to-do list. I’d like to see how it compares to PDBF 300.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking for the prints where I'd want baryta, I'd want the apparently smoother surface of Big Bend Baryta instead of the more textured one of Palo Duro Baryta Fiber--but obviously it's really a matter of personal taste.
 
NAwlins Contrarian said:
I'm thinking for the prints where I'd want baryta, I'd want the apparently smoother surface of Big Bend Baryta instead of the more textured one of Palo Duro Baryta Fiber--but obviously it's really a matter of personal taste.
Click to expand...
Based on the photos at Red River, Big Bend Baryta definitely has a smoother surface finish. If its saturation and dMax are similar to PDSGR, it could end up as my go-to baryta.
 
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
* FWIW, another paper I'd really like to try is Red River Big Bend Baryta.
Click to expand...
Likewise. I have it on my to-do list. I’d like to see how it compares to PDBF 300.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking for the prints where I'd want baryta, I'd want the apparently smoother surface of Big Bend Baryta instead of the more textured one of Palo Duro Baryta Fiber--but obviously it's really a matter of personal taste.
Click to expand...
If you want the ultimate in a smooth surface print on white film.
 
mike earussi said:
mike earussi said:
mike earussi said:
mike earussi said:
* FWIW, another paper I'd really like to try is Red River Big Bend Baryta.
Click to expand...
Likewise. I have it on my to-do list. I’d like to see how it compares to PDBF 300.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking for the prints where I'd want baryta, I'd want the apparently smoother surface of Big Bend Baryta instead of the more textured one of Palo Duro Baryta Fiber--but obviously it's really a matter of personal taste.
Click to expand...
If you want the ultimate in a smooth surface print on white film.
Click to expand...
Oh, I have a stock of Pictorico White Film. And it is really interesting for certain images, the dye-ink counterpart to FujiFlex SuperGloss, with a big gamut.

But to my eye white film does not provide the same look as any of the baryta papers, to say nothing of texture and handling properties.
 
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
Here is another 100% Cotton rag based Baryta paper you might consider as well, it's a newer addition.
Click to expand...
I was going to list that, but the Ilford website is vague, and indeed sounds like a fudge: "Traditional Baryta-like surface" (emphasis added; see https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-gloss/). And then the data sheet says "a baryta-like surface" and "Look and feel of traditional baryta photo paper" (see https://ilford.com/wp-dev/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/GPGFG_v3_19032019.pdf). So it sounds to me like Ilford is admitting, 'This is not truly baryta.'

Ilford also lists, among its "Galerie Fine Art Baryta" papers, Gold Fibre Pearl. Ilford's website and data sheet have similar weasel-words for it (https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-pearl/).
Click to expand...
Gold Fibre Gloss is more in the Platine paper type, IMO. It’s my preference among three (Epson Legacy Platine and Canson Platine) mostly because in sheets it lays flatter and feeds more reliably w/o edge/corner strike tendencies. It’s a very nice paper. It’s getting very expensive.

Note: Many of the barytas in the chart are no longer available, and probably never will be again. All victims of the mill shut down of the process line that was making them all.

In my experience the “version 2” of them, e.g. Canson’s VII, are nothing at all like the originals.

Rand
 
Rand 47 said:
Rand 47 said:
Rand 47 said:
Here is another 100% Cotton rag based Baryta paper you might consider as well, it's a newer addition.
Click to expand...
I was going to list that, but the Ilford website is vague, and indeed sounds like a fudge: "Traditional Baryta-like surface" (emphasis added; see https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-gloss/). And then the data sheet says "a baryta-like surface" and "Look and feel of traditional baryta photo paper" (see https://ilford.com/wp-dev/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/GPGFG_v3_19032019.pdf). So it sounds to me like Ilford is admitting, 'This is not truly baryta.'

Ilford also lists, among its "Galerie Fine Art Baryta" papers, Gold Fibre Pearl. Ilford's website and data sheet have similar weasel-words for it (https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-pearl/).
Click to expand...
Gold Fibre Gloss is more in the Platine paper type, IMO.
Click to expand...
Yes, Ilford sells that and I think one other paper that it calls "bartya-type" but does not claim are actual baryta papers.
Rand 47 said:
It’s my preference among three (Epson Legacy Platine and Canson Platine) mostly because in sheets it lays flatter and feeds more reliably w/o edge/corner strike tendencies. It’s a very nice paper. It’s getting very expensive.
Click to expand...
Have you tried Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag? Some of us find it similar to Canson Platine (which I really like, but with which I've had some little issues) and Epson Platine. You might find it to be as good or better for the same or lower cost.
Rand 47 said:
Note: Many of the barytas in the chart are no longer available, and probably never will be again. All victims of the mill shut down of the process line that was making them all.
Click to expand...
Yes, I updated that below (at https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65760736). And I'm being judicious with my remaining supply of Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta.
Rand 47 said:
In my experience the “version 2” of them, e.g. Canson’s VII, are nothing at all like the originals.
Click to expand...
That seems to be the almost-universal view about several of these papers. But it also seems like more and more people are finding acceptable substitutes.
 
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
Here is another 100% Cotton rag based Baryta paper you might consider as well, it's a newer addition.
Click to expand...
I was going to list that, but the Ilford website is vague, and indeed sounds like a fudge: "Traditional Baryta-like surface" (emphasis added; see https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-gloss/). And then the data sheet says "a baryta-like surface" and "Look and feel of traditional baryta photo paper" (see https://ilford.com/wp-dev/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/GPGFG_v3_19032019.pdf). So it sounds to me like Ilford is admitting, 'This is not truly baryta.'

Ilford also lists, among its "Galerie Fine Art Baryta" papers, Gold Fibre Pearl. Ilford's website and data sheet have similar weasel-words for it (https://ilford.com/product/gold-fibre-pearl/).
Click to expand...
Gold Fibre Gloss is more in the Platine paper type, IMO.
Click to expand...
Yes, Ilford sells that and I think one other paper that it calls "bartya-type" but does not claim are actual baryta papers.
NAwlins Contrarian said:
It’s my preference among three (Epson Legacy Platine and Canson Platine) mostly because in sheets it lays flatter and feeds more reliably w/o edge/corner strike tendencies. It’s a very nice paper. It’s getting very expensive.
Click to expand...
d
Click to expand...
Yes, RR’s Palo Duro SGR is a good paper and I stock some in 17x25”. There’s something “less good” about its surface reflection that I don’t care for that keeps it from being my go-to in this category. I love that RR offers 17x25” sheets, which for 3:2 aspect ratio images is really nice. I just ordered a box of their “new to me” return of San Gabriel - now called Palo Duro Baryta Fiber 300 - to see if it is close to the SG II. So far, the Simply Elegant Gold Fibre is the only dead-ringer for the Gold Fibre Silk class of barytas.
NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:
Note: Many of the barytas in the chart are no longer available, and probably never will be again. All victims of the mill shut down of the process line that was making them all.
Click to expand...
Yes, I updated that below (at https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65760736). And I'm being judicious with my remaining supply of Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta.
NAwlins Contrarian said:
In my experience the “version 2” of them, e.g. Canson’s VII, are nothing at all like the originals.
Click to expand...
That seems to be the almost-universal view about several of these papers. But it also seems like more and more people are finding acceptable substitutes.
Click to expand...
Yes, agreed… I’m using Canson Baryta Prestige a lot where I might / would have used the others in the past. It’s great in sheets, but is a bit like wrestling an alligator in rolls 24” and larger. 😃

Rand
 
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This one has been mentioned a couple times already. I'm new to this paper, but already I'm very pleased. I don't like glossy, and even semi-gloss/luster is not pleasing to me. Red River Palo Duro Soft Gloss Rag (which many love) is too shiny for my taste. The RR PD Baryta is very nice -- the closest I've seen so far to my old standby in the darkroom, Ilford Multigrade Fibre Based.
 
Rob de Loe said:
This one has been mentioned a couple times already. I'm new to this paper, but already I'm very pleased. I don't like glossy, and even semi-gloss/luster is not pleasing to me. Red River Palo Duro Soft Gloss Rag (which many love) is too shiny for my taste. The RR PD Baryta is very nice -- the closest I've seen so far to my old standby in the darkroom, Ilford Multigrade Fibre Based.
Click to expand...
Rob,

Thanks for this…. very encouraging. I look forward to testing it. Are you using RR’s ICC profile(s) for it? If so, any opinion?

Rand
 
Rand 47 said:
Rob de Loe said:
This one has been mentioned a couple times already. I'm new to this paper, but already I'm very pleased. I don't like glossy, and even semi-gloss/luster is not pleasing to me. Red River Palo Duro Soft Gloss Rag (which many love) is too shiny for my taste. The RR PD Baryta is very nice -- the closest I've seen so far to my old standby in the darkroom, Ilford Multigrade Fibre Based.
Click to expand...
Rob,

Thanks for this…. very encouraging. I look forward to testing it. Are you using RR’s ICC profile(s) for it? If so, any opinion?

Rand
Click to expand...
If the manufacturer provides a profile, I like to try it first -- which is what I did with this paper. I'll make my own if I don't like the manufacturer's profile, but my equipment is only decent (ColorMunki) and my skill level is modest. ;)

Re they RR PD Baryta, so far so good. I've had no complaints with any of the RR ICCs based on initial testing, and the Baryta is no exception.

My evaluation routine involves a few steps. I'm primarily interested in good black and white results, so you'll see the bias to testing for that.
  • Print of a common colour test scene: Spyder3 Print SR image
  • Print of a common black and white test scene: Keith Cooper's black and white scene
  • Linearization check for black and white with my ColorMunki and Quadtone RIP to check for problems, especially in the shadows
  • Jon Cone's "Proof of Piezo" image to confirm highlights and shadows, and to make sure fine detail is acceptable
I've done the first two tests for the RR PD Baryta. I'm happy with those results, so now I'm going to now move on to the next two later today.

For black and white work, the last two are very important. The Cone test in particular is merciless.

Image sources:
 
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