Epson: Matte Black vs. Photo Black

I've just upgraded from the 2200 to the 3800, and have no experience with the newer black usage. Can you tell me the following: 1. If printing on Premium Semigloss, for example, what is the difference between using Photo Black and Matte Black on (a) a black and white print, and (b) a color print? And 2. If printing on Enhanced Matte what is the difference between using photo black and matte black in B and W prints and semigloss or glossy prints.

Thanks

kdoc

As I understand it, there really isn't an option if you're using the Epson profiles on the 3800. The printer knows which black should be used with each paper (generally, use PK with all glossy, semi-gloss, pearl or luster paper and MK with matt finished and most art papers (those with a matt or porous surface). With the Epson profiles, the printer will actually grey out the improper cartridge and won't let you switch. If the print driver is not familiar with a paper, you may get the option of selecting the black, in which case you should follow the above guidelines. The determining factor is the type of surface the paper you use -- not whether you are doing B&W or color.
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John

I should add that the printer will probably automatically select PK for premium semigloss and mk for enhance matt, the two papers you mentioned. It will not likely allow you to switch to the other as the results would not be good.
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John

Thanks John: Given that, can you explain if the quality of black (depth of black, etc.) differ between the two? If you do explain, and use some of those "D" values, please explain, as I can't remember what those measures of "Black Quality" are.

Thanks

kdoc

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It's pretty much the same concept as with the 2100 and 2200 or any other Epson Pigmented printer where you have to swap imk carts ( Black).

Hard surfaced media like RC coated paers ( Luster , Semigloss etc) take PK. Matte surfaced or many so called fine art papers use the MK.

MK ink on matte paper will produce deepr blacks than can PK. If the 3800 is like the 4800 and I don't know if it is, Epson and many third party paper companies provide profiles for both inks on several matte papers but genrally even so the MK ink with MK profile will look best.

MK ink on Glossy or Luster surface doesn't work, you get flaking and sometimes fogging and as far as I know there is no profile for this setup anyway.

YOu can trick the printer into thiniing it's printing on say Luster when you have matte of some sort in there and use the PK profile in that case, it usually looks lousy but once in a while you might find a combo that sort of works.
David

The measurement of black intensity is called "DMax." Generally, the same printer will usually be able to yield a higher DMax with glossy and semi-gloss papers than matt papers. In addition, dye printers tend to be able to achieve higher dMax ratings than pigment printers, although the recent generation of pigment printers have closed that gap significantly. The choice between glossy and matt finshes requires something of a trade-off. The matt and art papers have very professional looking finish, but you often will lose some of the shadow detail in dark areas of a print when you go that route.

Most glossy finishes will give you the best chance to capture that shadow detail, but fine art photographers (and many customers) generally dislike the look of glossy papers. Hence, the popularity of luster and semigloss finishes, which seem to be a good compromise between the two extremes. Still, depending on the composition of your image (how important is shadow detail to a particular image, etc.) matt may yield just as appealing a print as a glossy or semigloss.

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John

Great gentlemen: that summarizes it for me!!!! Thanks

kdoc

this was a very useful thread!

A couple of additional points: 1. The 3800 will allow you to choose which black ink you want to try apparently, according to the manual--it's not entirely on automatic. (I didn't try, so as not to waste ink). Also: Luster seems very popular, but I've found that in a room receiving imperfect lighting, and with a glass in front of it, the "lusterous gloss" seems to give strange, irregular sheens across the surface--which I don't like. Are others bothered by this phenomenon? Matte paper certainly doesn't, and semi-gloss seems to be relatively less suseptible to this.

kdoc

Kdoc said:

A couple of additional points: 1. The 3800 will allow you to choose
which black ink you want to try apparently, according to the
manual--it's not entirely on automatic. (I didn't try, so as not to
waste ink). Also: Luster seems very popular, but I've found that in
a room receiving imperfect lighting, and with a glass in front of
it, the "lusterous gloss" seems to give strange, irregular sheens
across the surface--which I don't like. Are others bothered by this
phenomenon? Matte paper certainly doesn't, and semi-gloss seems to
be relatively less suseptible to this.

kdoc

Click to expand...

Its much MUCH better than with the 2200---but what you are referring to is, I'm sure, gloss differential (but different papers exhibit this differently--worth sampliing IMO). Bronzing is just about nil with K3 iniks. The least GD I've seen on all the 'luster' papers (or ones I've used PK inks with) of all my sampling is the Innova paper F type white satin (before called semi matte). Actually I prefer my b/w (I generally do lightly toned monos) on matte fineart, but the Innove is really lovely. I tried a number of F type papers--but this is the one I prefer. I'm actually using Inkjetart microceramic luster for a job of a number of 16 x 24--to keep the price within budget and knowing it looks quite nice matted and framed under glass. However, I plan to explore the Innova paper---and may use it for my personal b/w work instead of matte.

Diane
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Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

Kdoc said:

Thanks John: Given that, can you explain if the quality of black
(depth of black, etc.) differ between the two? If you do explain,
and use some of those "D" values, please explain, as I can't
remember what those measures of "Black Quality" are.

Click to expand...

Well, as David mentioned, the D value that matters is DMAX, the density of the darkest black. It's a logarithmic scale.

D = 0 means the paper reflects 100% of light, and absorbs nothing. It's perfect, diffusing white.

D = 1 means the paper reflects 10% of light, absorbs 90%. That's a moderately dark gray in color.

D = 2 means the paper reflects 1% of light, absorbs 99%. That's a pretty rich, deep black.

D = 3 means the paper reflects 0.1% of light, and absorbs 99.9%. This doesn't happen in real life, you have to do something like making a "light trap", dig a little hole and line it in black velvet, to absorb enough light th hit D=3.

DMAX is the darkest density a paper and ink combination can hit.

A good glossy silver gelatin photograph hits around DMAX 2.6, and Epson Photo black and the right glossy paper can come very close to that. That's a deep black that really gives you rich shadow detail.

A good "alternative process" platinum print hits a DMAX of about 1.6 on watercolor paper, and the Epson matte black on a water color or matte paper like "velvet fine art" or "enhanced matte" also hits around 1.6

If you set the paper type in the driver, the 3800 won't print with the "wrong" ink, matte black on a glossy paper, or photo black on a matte paper. But if you tell the driver you're using something other than the paper you're actually using, you can screw things up.

If you tell the 3800 driver you're printing on "velvet fine art", and put a sheet of "premium glossy" in the machine, it will lay down matte black ink on the glossy paper. The ink will look like soot deposited on the paper, black areas will be dull, the paper's gloss will be covered up by the "powder" texture of the ink. And, after the ink dries, it will rub off on your fingers if you touch the print. DMAX will suffer, only hitting about 2.2.

If you tell the driver you're printing on "premium glossy" and put a sheet of "velvet fine art" in the machine, it will use photo black on your expensive fine art paper. The ink will only reach a DMAX of about 1.2 or 1.3, instead of 1.6. The blacks will look, at best, dark gray. The overall image will look pastel, the colors muted.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

What is GD, and have you tried the Epson Semi-Matte 250 (which comes in 17x22.

kdoc

Wow: that's what I LOVE about this forum. An entire world encyclopedia right at my fingertips!! Thanks very much. And yes, "I'll be good." No using the wrong inks .

kdoc

Kdoc said:

What is GD, and have you tried the Epson Semi-Matte 250 (which
comes in 17x22.

kdoc

Click to expand...

GD is gloss differential. No, haven't tried that paper.

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Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

As a general rule of thumb anything that is gloss, satin, or luster uses Photo Black. Any cotton based fine art or matte papers will use Matte Black.

Tyler - that is a 10 year old thread!

Nice to see that such questions have troubled photographers since the beginning of time...