Testing ooc jpeg colour "blotches"...

[Lettermanian]

TL;DR: in ooc jpegs there is often green and magenta posterization in certain parts of the image. In the RAW files there is no discolouration. Numerous examples online of this, most likely (?) an issue with Panasonic's compression algorithms.

Since moving to Panasonic from Fuji a while ago, I am for the most part very happy with the switch. I am enjoying the feature set of the S5, and the image quality and performance of the 70-300, the Sigma 16-28, and the 20-60, which all perform as well or better than their former counterparts. In one area though, I have to say that Fuji rules in the ooc jpeg department. While I am happy with most of the ooc jpegs from the S5, including the results from my own custom Photo Style settings ( see my thread on this), I have noticed some colour blotches/mottling/posterization in certain areas of the frame, usually noticeable in underexposed areas with few features. In my several years of shooting mostly jpegs with Fuji I never saw this particular issue, so I wanted to try to see if it was a repeatable, predictable issue.

In the test images below a flat wall or ceiling provides a good sample of where these colour issues occur. There are numerous examples online of others experiencing this same effect, both in stills and in video modes, again mostly noticeable in areas of the image with less features and low exposure. This may be happening with the S5ii as well. I'd appreciate any owners of the S5ii/X or S9 to try some similar imaging in jpeg to see if it is present.

I took many test shots, not all included here. I shot all in-camera Photo Styles in RAW + Fine, Large (24mp) quality. The results were the same across all Styles: mottling in the jpegs, none in the RAWs. In the test images below I had in-camera noise reduction and sharpness set to -4. Please see the captions for details of each image. Shot on my S5 + 70-300 hand-held with mechanical shutter.

* Edit: I should add that I also shot from iso 100-1600 to see if dual iso (100 base, then 640 base) was a factor, but the mottling was present in all images as well and didn't change based on ISO.


OOC jpeg, mottling appears in the less exposed areas


Same image zoomed in


Exposure increased


Zoomed in


Also visible in the better-exposed areas

The following images are from the RAW file of the same image:


No posterization/green-magenta noise issues in the less-exposed areas


Zoomed in


Exposure lifted


No issues in the better-exposed areas either

So from my pseudo-scientific test, the issue is predictable and repeatable. This was obviously an indoor test, but next time I go out to shoot I will try to replicate it. I have seen some artifacts in skies under certain light conditions, but for the most part I have been happy with my outdoor nature shots in jpeg. However, I always shoot RAW+Fine in case I need to do more processing, and that of course would be my recommendation to anyone who likes to shoot jpeg with Panasonic. Any additional insights are of course welcome.

-- The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Off The Mark]

Which lens and which picture profile were you using?

Do you have vignette compensation (I think that is what it is called) on or off in the body?

From what I have seen and read online, the 24-105 f/4 can suffer from blotching (don't know what else to call it) in low light situations with vignette compensation on in the camera. However, that generally is limited to when shooting in V-LOG, so it is not something stills shooters should normally run in to. (And since it looks like you were shooting at ISO 400, it is safe to assume you weren't shooting in V-LOG, which has a minimum ISO of 640).

Which brings up an idea: Try testing out the same shots at ISO 640, which is the second native ISO for the standard picture profiles (the ones that have a base ISO of 100) and see what you get.

Unfortunately, that's all I have as a suggestion. Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in with more helpful suggestions than mine.

 

[jalywol]

What is your workflow?

In other words, what devices do you download the images to, and what programs do you use to open, view, and work with them?

Have you tried opening the images in SilkyPix to see if they still have the blotching?

-J

 

[Lettermanian]

Which lens and which picture profile were you using?

As stated, I was using the 70-300, and the pics I posted were from one of my custom photo styles. I did shoot all photo styles, there were too many to include in my post though. I saw the effect in all of them (Vlog had the least amount).

Do you have vignette compensation (I think that is what it is called) on or off in the body?

It was greyed out in the menu because I had Ex Tele Conv enabled. I disabled that this morning, then disabled both Vignette Correction and Diffraction Comp. I then set the ISO to 640 and shot in Standard Photo Style. The effect is still visible, especially on the ceiling, and can be seen in the grey of the door as well (don't mind the darker bands; I was shooting in mech shutter but the morning light was coming in through a window with open slat blinds):

From what I have seen and read online, the 24-105 f/4 can suffer from blotching (don't know what else to call it) in low light situations with vignette compensation on in the camera. However, that generally is limited to when shooting in V-LOG, so it is not something stills shooters should normally run in to. (And since it looks like you were shooting at ISO 400, it is safe to assume you weren't shooting in V-LOG, which has a minimum ISO of 640).

Which brings up an idea: Try testing out the same shots at ISO 640, which is the second native ISO for the standard picture profiles (the ones that have a base ISO of 100) and see what you get.

Yes, I actually did try various ISO's between 100-640, then 640-2500 or so.

Unfortunately, that's all I have as a suggestion. Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in with more helpful suggestions than mine.

Thank you, I will do more testing with the Vignette and Diffraction off when I can shoot normally again (when I have time and the weather permits).

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Lettermanian]

What is your workflow?

In other words, what devices do you download the images to, and what programs do you use to open, view, and work with them?

Have you tried opening the images in SilkyPix to see if they still have the blotching?

-J

SD card out-of-camera to card reader to Mac Mini M2 to a folder for the date, then viewed in Luminar Neo (most recently). I also have ON1 Photo raw 2022, DXO Filmpack 7, Apple Photos, and have tried other programs, and they all show the mottling in the in-camera jpegs. RAWs are all fine, and RAW to jpeg conversions are clean.

I haven't tried Silky Pix; I see there is a Silky Pix for JPEG version which I will trial to see if it makes a difference. I'll have time later today or tomorrow.

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Lettermanian]

Today I was able to get out for a bit with my kids (some images in the July Image Thread), and I was able to capture some images where the mottling shows in outdoor scenes. Again, it is evident in the flat, more featureless areas; in this case the sea fog. The green and magenta bands/blotches are able to be seen, especially when zoomed in:




It's mostly evident in the mist-shrouded trees. Next pic is zoomed in.








Not as evident but still visible. Next pic is with sliders maxed and the artifacts are easy to see.





So I do think it is a jpeg rendering issue, at least in the S5 and possibly other cams. It will be interesting to see as time goes on if the issue arises in the marketed-for-jpegs S9.

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Lettermanian]

With further investigation I have seen the same artifacts in S9 images. I commented on it in Topshelfjunior's post https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67819925 and provided sample images where I was seeing the green and magenta colour blotching, but I do not want to continue there in fairness to the OP. The subject fits much better in this thread of my own.

Here is another thread on the same issue from six months ago. I can see the same green and magenta blotches in this person's images.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4744710

Also visible in this reddit post: * Edit - the images in this reddit post are screengrabs from video footage. However they are (extreme) examples of the green and magenta artifacts I'm seeing in some of the S5 ooc jpegs. While the video footage may be correctable with further processing, an ooc jpeg should be considered a "finished" image from the camera, unlike shooting video in vlog or any other format that requires further processing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Lumix/comments/xn09np/lumix_s5_splotchy_colors_anyone_else_run_into_this

It can also be seen in the DPR Comparison tool. I chose the S5, S5ii, G9ii, and X-T3 The last Fuji camera I had). All four jpeg images (downloaded full size and zoomed in) show some degree of green and magenta colour noise (if that is what it is), but the blotchy, banding characteristic I am seeing in the Panasonic images is not visible in the X-T3 image when zoomed in and examined closely:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...ation=full&widget=1&x=0&y=0.13416815742397137

Because the subject came up in the other post, I should mention that I've been using Macs and Windows desktops and laptops since 2009 for image viewing with multiple brands of cameras (see my gear list), and again have only seen this with Panasonic OOC jpegs. My current monitor is a Lenovo 24" QHD monitor , and shows the artifact regardless of colour space. It is connected via USB-C to my M2 Mac Mini.

I think It would be fair to ask what devices/setup are others using when they say they can't see these artifacts; it would be helpful to know if the issue is indeed in my hardware, but I doubt it, as the artifacts I'm addressing are specific to Panasonic OOC jpegs only. I have no issues viewing/processing raw files or ooc jpegs from my S5 or my former Fuji and other cameras (see my gear list). Interestingly, I looked back at some of my images from 2015 when I had a Panasonic GX7, and the same kind of splotchy artifacts are in some of those images too. I briefly had a G85 and an S5 a couple of years ago, and the artifacts are there too.

I have no intention of switching back to Fuji or another system; I really enjoy using the S5 and the lenses I have. The 70-300 performs (imo) better than the Fuji 70-300, and so far the Sigma 16-28 is impressing me too. I have made some custom Photo style jpeg recipes which I like, but always shoot RAW+Fine if I see too much of the artifacts in the jpegs. All this to say I am not in any way trolling Panasonic, but am trying to be objective about investigating what I see as a possible issue for jpeg shooters.

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Off The Mark]

You might want to delete the link to the redit post.

They are using an S5 (not an S5 II), and they were (apparently) shooting video in V-LOG, which needs to be conformed to a Rec. 709 image (similar to an sRGB color space, but not exactly), and the method one chooses (and the software they use) to conform to Rec. 709 can affect the final image quality.

(At least, it SEEMS the OP in that thread was shooting video in V-LOG, although I am not sure they ever confirmed that. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken.)

 

[Lettermanian]

You might want to delete the link to the redit post.

They are using an S5 (not an S5 II), and they were (apparently) shooting video in V-LOG, which needs to be conformed to a Rec. 709 image (similar to an sRGB color space, but not exactly), and the method one chooses (and the software they use) to conform to Rec. 709 can affect the final image quality.

(At least, it SEEMS the OP in that thread was shooting video in V-LOG, although I am not sure they ever confirmed that. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken.)

Yes, thanks for the catch; the images are screengrabs from video footage. I added an Edit note in my post, as it still shows a good example of the artifacting in some of my S5 ooc jpegs, and that I'm seeing in the S9 video footage shared previously.

 

[Lettermanian]

Here is another screenshot from a LUMIX S9 promo video on the official LUMIX channel. The green and magenta blotches are everywhere in this image. The artifact is evident in other official LUMIX videos as well.



Screenshot of image near the end of the video:





Video link:









--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[Off The Mark]

Hmmm... I am struggling to come up with any helpful ideas or advice about this. Sorry.

I think you said that you nromally shoot RAW + JPG, and the RAW files were fine but the JPGs were blotchy, right? (Apologies if I misinerpreted / misunderstood that.)

Which makes me think that possibly this is related to noise reduction in jpgs. But that is the only guess I have.

Would you mind testing shooting ONLY jpg? Just to humor me...

Also, have you tried different SD cards?

If you have multiple batteries, can you try changing batteries?

All of these might be far fetched suggestions / ideas, but as mentioned above, I am struggling to come up with any kinds of ideas on this.

Also, this doesn't seem like a particularly widespread phenomenon, considering the number of S5 II / S5 IIX cameras sold and the fact that they have been out for more than a year, I would personally expect to see a lot more threads started about this. And I do check a lot of forums and such about image quality of the S5 II and IIX.

 

[tilted_horizon]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

 

[Lettermanian]

Hmmm... I am struggling to come up with any helpful ideas or advice about this. Sorry.

I think you said that you nromally shoot RAW + JPG, and the RAW files were fine but the JPGs were blotchy, right? (Apologies if I misinerpreted / misunderstood that.)

Correct; RAW files and jpegs post-processed in my editing programs are all fine. It is the in-camera jpegs that show this blotchy "noise". Noise of course is to be expected, but it's just the blotchy nature of it that is strange, as can be seen in the stills taken with the S9 in the Panasonic video in my previous post.

Which makes me think that possibly this is related to noise reduction in jpgs. But that is the only guess I have.

Would you mind testing shooting ONLY jpg? Just to humor me...

I have done this; all in-camera Photo Styles as well as my own customized styles. I have shot with 0 NR, -5 NR and +5 NR, but the artifacts don't seem affected by in-camera NR. So it seems to be what others have suggested: a compression algorithm issue, which may explain why it shows up in some Panasonic videos as well.

Also, have you tried different SD cards?

No, but all other files, and many ooc jpegs on those cards show perfectly fine images. I only see the artifacts in areas of the photo with less exposure flat/featureless surfaces.

If you have multiple batteries, can you try changing batteries?

Have tried both batteries, no apparent changes or improvements.

All of these might be far fetched suggestions / ideas, but as mentioned above, I am struggling to come up with any kinds of ideas on this.

Also, this doesn't seem like a particularly widespread phenomenon, considering the number of S5 II / S5 IIX cameras sold and the fact that they have been out for more than a year, I would personally expect to see a lot more threads started about this. And I do check a lot of forums and such about image quality of the S5 II and IIX.

My guess is that the vast majority of still images from Panasonic cameras are being shot as RAW then post-processed to jpeg, which wouldn't show the artifacts. It's not like Panasonic has a reputation for amazing out-of-camera jpegs. Now though with Real Time LUTs (all based on jpeg Photo Styles), ooc jpeg imaging is being marketed by Panasonic with the S9, and apparently (at least to my eyes) the issue is definitely there, again in certain areas of some images. I do see it as well in out-of-camera S9 videos. Once seen it's hard to unsee.

In my other posts I have shared my customized jpeg recipes, and for the most part they are performing well. The green and magenta blotches still show up though in certain shots, so shooting RAW+Fine is a necessity.

 

[Lettermanian]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):





The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[tilted_horizon]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):



The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

As I said, AWB usually causes magenta casts and I'll bet it's what caused the magenta in that video. Try it yourself. Shoot a wall inside your house in daylight with AWB, then take the same shot with Kelvin set to what looks correct, which will probably be around 4000K.

Edit - This test might not work so well with an Olympus/OM camera, they're one of the few that has decent AWB.

 

[Lettermanian]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):



The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

As I said, AWB usually causes magenta casts and I'll bet it's what caused the magenta in that video. Try it yourself. Shoot a wall inside your house in daylight with AWB, then take the same shot with Kelvin set to what looks correct, which will probably be around 4000K.

Edit - This test might not work so well with an Olympus/OM camera, they're one of the few that has decent AWB.

I don't think this is a magenta "cast" issue from WB, which would affect an image with a more uniform tint. It is large green and magenta chunks of colour, visible in these crops of the image above from the LUMIX S9 video. To me this looks more like colour noise that hasn't been processed/compressed well in-camera:



Vibrancy increased:



--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[tilted_horizon]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):



The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

As I said, AWB usually causes magenta casts and I'll bet it's what caused the magenta in that video. Try it yourself. Shoot a wall inside your house in daylight with AWB, then take the same shot with Kelvin set to what looks correct, which will probably be around 4000K.

Edit - This test might not work so well with an Olympus/OM camera, they're one of the few that has decent AWB.

I don't think this is a magenta "cast" issue from WB, which would affect an image with a more uniform tint. It is large green and magenta chunks of colour, visible in these crops of the image above from the LUMIX S9 video. To me this looks more like colour noise that hasn't been processed/compressed well in-camera:



Vibrancy increased:

No, the magenta issue from AWB is not a cast that covers the whole image, it's magenta blotching in shadow areas just as you're pointing out. You wanted suggestions and I'm providing one, but you know what you know. Good luck. And I'm planning to buy an S9 within a month or two, so I'll be able to sort this out for myself shortly.

 

[Lettermanian]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):



The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

As I said, AWB usually causes magenta casts and I'll bet it's what caused the magenta in that video. Try it yourself. Shoot a wall inside your house in daylight with AWB, then take the same shot with Kelvin set to what looks correct, which will probably be around 4000K.

Edit - This test might not work so well with an Olympus/OM camera, they're one of the few that has decent AWB.

I don't think this is a magenta "cast" issue from WB, which would affect an image with a more uniform tint. It is large green and magenta chunks of colour, visible in these crops of the image above from the LUMIX S9 video. To me this looks more like colour noise that hasn't been processed/compressed well in-camera:



Vibrancy increased:

No, the magenta issue from AWB is not a cast that covers the whole image, it's magenta blotching in shadow areas just as you're pointing out. You wanted suggestions and I'm providing one, but you know what you know. Good luck. And I'm planning to buy an S9 within a month or two, so I'll be able to sort this out for myself shortly.

This is a genuine inquiry I'm making into this issue, so I appreciate your insight on AWB, it is something I'll test more with my S5. The recipes I have made and am shooting a lot with though all rely on a custom WB; I'm not using AWB with any of them.

The overarching context of my inquiries into this issue is that for years I shot with Fuji X gear, ooc jpegs almost all of the time, and using custom film sim recipes, many of which required either AWB or custom WB shifts and temperature settings. While I saw noise patterns, I never saw this blotchy, chunky problem with Fuji ooc jpegs, though of course the WB settings did cause colour casts (most of the time purposeful to get a certain colour effect). The fact that I don't see this issue in S5 jpegs processed from RAWs leads me to believe it is exclusively an in-camera jpeg processing issue. I'm enjoying my Panasonic gear and won't go back to Fuji, but if there's a way to minimize or get rid of this effect, I'm all ears.

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

 

[tilted_horizon]

My S5 and S5M2 had lots of color noise in jpeg, especially in shadows, like all Panasonic cameras since I started shooting with the brand in 2004 or so. I have Lightroom and color noise reduction set to 100 gets rid of most or all of it, but I'm increasingly unwilling to spend any time editing, so I still find this issue relevant.

I find the RAWs and jpegs processed in post are all fine and display "normal" noise artifacts. In my posts I am specifically addressing jpegs produced in-camera, either from the factory Photo Styles or my own customized jpeg recipes.

While looking at Dale Baskin's S9 samples from Japan, I enlarged the nighttime shot of the scooter taken at ISO 12,800 and was surprised at how clean it was. It's SOOC with the standard color profile and the details look okay to me, not smudged over. My guess is that default in-camera noise reduction was used and maybe Panasonic has improved their JPEGs.

I looked at that one and it was quite clean indeed. However, the specific blotching artifacts are in some other ooc images from that gallery.

The magenta casts you see are often caused by using AWB, and this a problem that affects most camera brands, especially Fuji. Even in the scooter shot I see some magenta in the front wheel and on the sidewalk, though sometimes it's hard to know if this is from the actual light in a scene. Selecting tungsten or Kelvin would likely have mitigated this. Using very high ISOs doesn't help, either. I almost never use more than 800, image quality is so much nicer the closer you get to base ISO.

The issue I'm addressing is not about an overall colour cast, it's the large blotches or "chunks" of green and magenta in the ooc images, such as in this still from one of the LUMIX S9 videos (shared previously in this post):



The artifact is very visible throughout the road and the white sight test placard; large chunks of green and magenta everywhere in the foreground, but the far background (which is better exposed) is quite clean of it.

As I said, AWB usually causes magenta casts and I'll bet it's what caused the magenta in that video. Try it yourself. Shoot a wall inside your house in daylight with AWB, then take the same shot with Kelvin set to what looks correct, which will probably be around 4000K.

Edit - This test might not work so well with an Olympus/OM camera, they're one of the few that has decent AWB.

I don't think this is a magenta "cast" issue from WB, which would affect an image with a more uniform tint. It is large green and magenta chunks of colour, visible in these crops of the image above from the LUMIX S9 video. To me this looks more like colour noise that hasn't been processed/compressed well in-camera:



Vibrancy increased:

No, the magenta issue from AWB is not a cast that covers the whole image, it's magenta blotching in shadow areas just as you're pointing out. You wanted suggestions and I'm providing one, but you know what you know. Good luck. And I'm planning to buy an S9 within a month or two, so I'll be able to sort this out for myself shortly.

This is a genuine inquiry I'm making into this issue, so I appreciate your insight on AWB, it is something I'll test more with my S5. The recipes I have made and am shooting a lot with though all rely on a custom WB; I'm not using AWB with any of them.

The overarching context of my inquiries into this issue is that for years I shot with Fuji X gear, ooc jpegs almost all of the time, and using custom film sim recipes, many of which required either AWB or custom WB shifts and temperature settings. While I saw noise patterns, I never saw this blotchy, chunky problem with Fuji ooc jpegs, though of course the WB settings did cause colour casts (most of the time purposeful to get a certain colour effect). The fact that I don't see this issue in S5 jpegs processed from RAWs leads me to believe it is exclusively an in-camera jpeg processing issue. I'm enjoying my Panasonic gear and won't go back to Fuji, but if there's a way to minimize or get rid of this effect, I'm all ears.

I believe you're being sincere and I'm trying to contribute. Not sure about custom WB but try a preset or Kelvin with default noise reduction. It's certainly a Panasonic JPEG processing issue. I was hoping things had improved with the S9 based on that Dale Baskin gallery, but hard to say until I get the camera.

Fuji is different (I'm currently evaluating the XT50). AWB causes a noticeable magenta shift but not the same ugly blotching because Fuji JPEGs seem to have good color noise reduction in-camera.

As I mentioned, I did have an S5 and S5M2 and I don't think either can produce stellar JPEGs, though keeping the ISO below 800 helps. Lumix Lab is the answer to my dreams of controlling SOOC color, so I'm hoping my next try with Panasonic is the charm. If not, Plan B is Nikon Flexible Color...

 

[Off The Mark]

Thank you for the shot with the vibrancy boosted, Makes it a lot eaiser to appreciate the scope of the problem.

I haven't really had a chance to test out my S5 IIX since it arrived last week, and you have given me somthing else to worry about

In all seriousness, this does seem like a pretty significant issue BECAUSE Panasonic is really going to town with real-time LUTs.

The other thing is - and I must preface this by saying I am no engineer - but it would make sense to me that all 8-bit video would have the same issues (maybe 10-bit video would avoid the issues). One more thing for me to test.

What happens if you change the color space from sRGB to Adobe RGB? Any imporvement? (And to be honest, I don't even know if the color space affects jpg / video color space or not, so might be a complete waste of time. As Cave Johnson would say, we are just throwing science at the wall and seeing if anything sticks).

And I am assuming you have turned off (and on) all the settings like i.Dynamic range and Vignette Comp, Diffraction Comp, and filter settings, right?

I don't know if you have any manual focus lenses with a dumb adapter lying around, do you? I wonder if it's a combination of the compression algo PLUS a lens correction built in to the in-camera jpgs? Tomorrow I will test out a couple of my manual focus lenses and see if Ican replicate or avoid the issue.