Should Panasonic revitalize the GF line?

[LeDatas]

It seems that many people (including Jordan Drake) have fond memories of the GF1. Currently, the GF10 is the latest camera in that series, yet no serious photographer seems to appreciate it. The line has definitely evolved over the years into a more "consumer-oriented" product.

Should Panasonic remake the camera (GF1X, >.<) to appeal to the serious photographer? If so, what would it take to appeal to this crowd? The Olympus Pen F failed, which apparently already tried to fill a similar niche/ethos as the GF1.

A GF1X paired with the 15mm or 17mm lens would seriously compete with the Fuji X100.

 

[Simon97]

I think people would want the control dials in a more serious camera or just use the phone. Personally, I do like the lower cost, compact and simplified design of the GF models, but with the bargain prices of other MFT camera, such as the GX85 kit, the Olympus PEN series and EM10 II deals, there's no room for the GF series.

I'd like to see a new GM camera with the latest sensor, AF, IBIS and video made very compact. A part of what MFT is all about.

 

[LeDatas]

I think Panny has too many "different" product lines. If they focused on 3 different MFT camera lines, perhaps the GF line would stand-out.

 

[Adam-T]

The GF started out as what we know as the GX line with the GF1 , then it took a downturn to a dumbed down Camera (gf2) to a really dumbed down camera (gf3/5) and stayed that way TIL the end ... people bemoaned the lack of a new GF1 so the REAL GF2 was the GX1 , no doubt because they’d taken it so far downhill that it needed to have a new name .... the G cams almost went the same way, the G3 was very basic but thankfully the G5 pepped things up and they got more and more as time went on to the G9 which is a full professional quality body beyond even the GH series possibly ..

back to the GF thing .. GF is only a label, And I think they should have called the dumbed down GF2 something else like GFL ? real GF2 is the GX1 of course and so on .. of course they’ve confused things again with the GX9 really being a GX90 and not a true successor to the Gx8. That’s Panasonic - LOL

 

[brentbrent]

The GX line IS the serious continuation of the GF1. After sort of downgrading the GF1 to the more entry-level GF2 and GF3, to the dismay of some, Panasonic introduced the GX1, very much like the GF1 but better in many ways (I owned both).

That was followed by the GX7, the GX85, and the GX9,* all of which are in the same ethos as the GF1. Perhaps the main difference is that they have a built-in EVF. But if you are romanticizing the lack of a built-in EVF when you ask for a new GF1, I don't think many enthusiast photographers would be with you. Other than that, how do the three cameras I mention above not meet your desire (other than "X" instead of "F")?

* The GX8 is a bigger camera and therefore not really comparable.

--
Brent

 

[Impulses]

Hmm, the GF line (now the GX### in the US/EU) turned into an amalgamation of the GM & GF lines... The GF6 (with which I started shooting M4/3 btw) had actually grown to be the largest GF ever, and then they did a 180 when they put out the GF7, then later the GX850 (GF9 in the JDM) and GX880 (GF10). There was a GF8 over in Japan too IIRC which was pretty similar to the 7, just like the 9->10 was.

I'm actually really happy with my GX850, it just about replaced my GM1 and it's missing very few enthusiast-geared feature by comparison, while having quite a few improvements... Lack of Custom spots on the mode dial is actually the only thing that comes to mind. Very underrated body for stills IMO, it's video capabilities would be more limiting compared to something like the GX85 largely due to lack of IBIS and heat dissipation limits (which it handles gracefully with warning messages etc, no sudden shutdowns).

A larger body would simply be a GX##, a GX85 for $500 with two lenses is a heck of a kit... I don't see enough daylight between those two models to add yet another one tbh, but maybe you've got some other feature in mind (besides IBIS) that you'd like to see on a small-ish GX/GF? I love the quiet shutter of the GM/GX### but it does have some restrictions with manual lenses (drops to 10 bit readout since it won't use the EFC and thus forces e-shutter).

A second dial would be awesome but it wouldn't be a huge boon for what I use for and Oly/Pana seem quite insistent on not putting dual dials in small or entry level bodies, still pressing up on the one dial to access exp comp. isn't too bad, I do it constantly during concerts as I fiddle with that and SS.

 

[Impulses]

I think Panny has too many "different" product lines. If they focused on 3 different MFT camera lines, perhaps the GF line would stand-out.

GF/GX###

GX##

G##

G#

GH#

Doesn't seem that bad to me tbh, the SLR styled bodies have proven the most popular so they doubled down on that and turned their stills flagship from a GX8 into a G9 (I'd consider the GX9 more of a GX95, and I think the vast majority would agree). Before the GX8 or G9 they had the tiny GM series too, and before that they only ever had 3-4 model lines (they jumped from GX1 to 7).

If anything, they've been really really predictable with the G/GH bodies, but very willing to experiment with the GX bodies... I wouldn't read too much into them folding the GF into the latter, tho it's seeing less updates as the market contracts.

Overall, Pana has still kept things simpler than Oly who at one point had 6 different model lines (E-PM, E-PL, E-P, E-M10, E-M5, E-M1), but even that wasn't sustainable and they're down to 4-5 as well. Frankly I think the most recent E-PL are far less appealing than the GX850 (for enthusiasts AND regular consumers)... If what you're looking is a PEN-F equivalent then the GX85 or GX9 are far closer to that than the GF ever was anyway.

 

[larsbc]

It seems that many people (including Jordan Drake) have fond memories of the GF1. Currently, the GF10 is the latest camera in that series, yet no serious photographer seems to appreciate it. The line has definitely evolved over the years into a more "consumer-oriented" product.

Should Panasonic remake the camera (GF1X, >.<) to appeal to the serious photographer? If so, what would it take to appeal to this crowd? The Olympus Pen F failed, which apparently already tried to fill a similar niche/ethos as the GF1.

If you think the PEN F filled a similar niche as the GF1 then it would also stand to reason that the GX7/85/9 fill that niche as well. I think the current Panasonic line up is good (covers the MOST bases fairly well), they just need to adhere to a consistent model naming convention. Yes, there will be small markets that fall between the cracks.

 

[FunGuy66]

There was a rumour a couple of months ago of a GX10 coming in the first half of 2020. It now seems unlikely it will still come in the first half, but I'm sure it's on the way.

The question is whether it will be more in the vein of the GX9 or GX8, or even GF1/GX1.

My basic expectation is a fairly minor upgrade to the GX9. Less likely but still possible: a true GX8 successor.

Personally I would welcome something the size of the GX1, with a shoe-mounted EVF. That way you have both a casual compact camera, or a more serious one with an EVF.

But I'm sure that won't happen, because based on past discussions of the topic, most people detest accessory EVFs. Oh well.

 

[windmillgolfer]

It seems that many people (including Jordan Drake) have fond memories of the GF1. Currently, the GF10 is the latest camera in that series, yet no serious photographer seems to appreciate it. The line has definitely evolved over the years into a more "consumer-oriented" product.

Should Panasonic remake the camera (GF1X, >.<) to appeal to the serious photographer? If so, what would it take to appeal to this crowd? The Olympus Pen F failed, which apparently already tried to fill a similar niche/ethos as the GF1.

A GF1X paired with the 15mm or 17mm lens would seriously compete with the Fuji X100.

The GF10 isn’t that old, only a couple of years. If people can’t take the GM/GF seriously that’s fine, there’s plenty of other choice. The original GF1 has been more than adequately covered by a range of GX rangefinder style bodies. Small, medium and large are all within the current ranges to suit funding and size of hands.

The 15mm f1.7 sits well on GM1 and up to G9. So, the GF10 would fit well too. While features have been added, the size has remained constant since the GF7, with a weight gain of circa 5gm.







--
Stuart
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[Chris Noble]

It seems that many people (including Jordan Drake) have fond memories of the GF1. Currently, the GF10 is the latest camera in that series, yet no serious photographer seems to appreciate it. The line has definitely evolved over the years into a more "consumer-oriented" product.

Should Panasonic remake the camera (GF1X, >.<) to appeal to the serious photographer? If so, what would it take to appeal to this crowd? The Olympus Pen F failed, which apparently already tried to fill a similar niche/ethos as the GF1.

A GF1X paired with the 15mm or 17mm lens would seriously compete with the Fuji X100.

3 u43 lines:

Enthusiast SLR type

Enthusiast rangefinder type

Budget line

The 4th line, compact (GM1/GM5) is unfortunately closed for now (luckily my GM5 still works great!).

 

[pannumon]

3 u43 lines:

GH5s, GH5 GH9 are semi-pro in my opinion.

Enthusiast SLR type

G90/95, G80/85, are enthusiastic

Enthusiast rangefinder type

What is this? GX8? GX9?

Budget line

GX80/85.

The 4th line, compact (GM1/GM5) is unfortunately closed for now (luckily my GM5 still works great!).

GX800-line (GF9, GF10 etc in some markets) is pretty close.

 

[pannumon]

It seems that many people (including Jordan Drake) have fond memories of the GF1. Currently, the GF10 is the latest camera in that series, yet no serious photographer seems to appreciate it. The line has definitely evolved over the years into a more "consumer-oriented" product.

Definitely, although GF10 is not a successor to GF1 by any means, GX9 might be.

Should Panasonic remake the camera (GF1X, >.<) to appeal to the serious photographer? If so, what would it take to appeal to this crowd? The Olympus Pen F failed, which apparently already tried to fill a similar niche/ethos as the GF1.

I am not sure if Pen F actually failed. It was an expensive camera with bad continuous AF and no weather sealing.

A GF1X paired with the 15mm or 17mm lens would seriously compete with the Fuji X100.

GF1 mk II, with the 15mm or 20mm lens, + 25mm f/1.4 etc.

Latest IBIS, latest sensor, latest shutter, Dual IS 2 support (unlike GX9).

No video, no 6k photo, exceptional build quality, brick shape with a semi-decent grip that accommodates a decent-sized (large) battery, "No need to sweep through menu in the shooting phase, ever!" -philosophy.

Reasonably priced, less than $1000€ body only. Add an unreasonably priced high-res add-on EVF, $500€.

Target group: Photographers who already have a main camera, but find it cumbersome to carry during free-time, people who want simplicity when they are not shooting seriously, people who just want to enjoy photography, people who like Leica, but cannot afford it.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I think Panny has too many "different" product lines. If they focused on 3 different MFT camera lines, perhaps the GF line would stand-out.

GF/GX###

GX##

G##

G#

GH#

Doesn't seem that bad to me tbh, the SLR styled bodies have proven the most popular so they doubled down on that and turned their stills flagship from a GX8 into a G9 (I'd consider the GX9 more of a GX95, and I think the vast majority would agree). Before the GX8 or G9 they had the tiny GM series too, and before that they only ever had 3-4 model lines (they jumped from GX1 to 7).

If anything, they've been really really predictable with the G/GH bodies, but very willing to experiment with the GX bodies... I wouldn't read too much into them folding the GF into the latter, tho it's seeing less updates as the market contracts.

Overall, Pana has still kept things simpler than Oly who at one point had 6 different model lines (E-PM, E-PL, E-P, E-M10, E-M5, E-M1), but even that wasn't sustainable and they're down to 4-5 as well. Frankly I think the most recent E-PL are far less appealing than the GX850 (for enthusiasts AND regular consumers)... If what you're looking is a PEN-F equivalent then the GX85 or GX9 are far closer to that than the GF ever was anyway.

Panasonic seemed to lose the plot in its numbering series about the GX80/85 and GX850.

Trying to make some sense out of it I think that the GX8 was originally meant to be a logical successor to the GX7 but there may have been thoughts of a simpler upgrade to the GX7 which may have been at an advanced stage but the GX8 won. Or it, more likely, may have been that the potential GX85 was in fact meant to be a more compact powerhouse version of the GX7 - a sort of half-way house to the GM5 with IBIS. But not enough new features could be she-horned into this more theoretical model. In any case the GM5 itself was a hard type of camera to update and sell.

The reason why the GM5 is hard to sell is not so much its price or what it can do - buy because it is so compact there is little that can be added to make it exciting to the marketplace. A new sensor and tart up the firmware - that might be about all that can be updated. As such are we going to get existing GM5 owners rushing to update what is effectively still a great little camera for a fair bit of money just for the benefits of a new sensor. Not enough completely new user market in which to sell enough to make it viable. Obviously they could sell it if priced low enough - but that might not be an attractive commercial proposition. Panasonic had been better to simply wait until the present GM cameras largely wear out - it might be a while.

But back to the GX7-GX8 - when the GX8 was hardly setting sales records (even if it was a great camera) Panasonic looked for a sales booster - the GX7 had been standard fare for quite a long while - maybe there was an upgrade market? So the design project that was the alternative to the GX8 was rushed to market But for convenience in basically the GX7 format body - maybe keep the name that had been tentatively set for it as a perhaps more compact camera that never was - GX85 - the GX8 slot was already filled. In this case the GX9 was a logical return to the numbering order.

Oh ... and the GM5 successor - well it might have been the GX850 but that also was a sticky patch - it could hardly (I wish) have been the GM5 with 20mp sensor - not only would that have blown the price out of the water, but it would have been a technically better (sensor) camera than the GX80/85 which seems to have been co-opted into an emergency price-repair model for the GX8 which, like the GM series, was also floundering in the price stakes.

GX80/85 was arguably as market successful as the GX8 was not. So Panasonic decided that the GM series continuator was basically the same internals but in a cheaper body that might sell well and be more profitable - ie: the GX850 (or whatever it was called - I get confused )

 

[Tom Caldwell]

The GF started out as what we know as the GX line with the GF1 , then it took a downturn to a dumbed down Camera (gf2) to a really dumbed down camera (gf3/5) and stayed that way TIL the end ... people bemoaned the lack of a new GF1 so the REAL GF2 was the GX1 , no doubt because they’d taken it so far downhill that it needed to have a new name .... the G cams almost went the same way, the G3 was very basic but thankfully the G5 pepped things up and they got more and more as time went on to the G9 which is a full professional quality body beyond even the GH series possibly ..

back to the GF thing .. GF is only a label, And I think they should have called the dumbed down GF2 something else like GFL ? real GF2 is the GX1 of course and so on .. of course they’ve confused things again with the GX9 really being a GX90 and not a true successor to the Gx8. That’s Panasonic - LOL

Adam - this almost makes it seem that the “F” stands for a naughty word

 

[James Stirling]

The GF started out as what we know as the GX line with the GF1 , then it took a downturn to a dumbed down Camera (gf2) to a really dumbed down camera (gf3/5) and stayed that way TIL the end ... people bemoaned the lack of a new GF1 so the REAL GF2 was the GX1 , no doubt because they’d taken it so far downhill that it needed to have a new name .... the G cams almost went the same way, the G3 was very basic but thankfully the G5 pepped things up and they got more and more as time went on to the G9 which is a full professional quality body beyond even the GH series possibly ..

back to the GF thing .. GF is only a label, And I think they should have called the dumbed down GF2 something else like GFL ? real GF2 is the GX1 of course and so on .. of course they’ve confused things again with the GX9 really being a GX90 and not a true successor to the Gx8. That’s Panasonic - LOL

Panasonic does have an interesting take in naming , apparently the naming device is very high tech







--
Jim Stirling:
It is not reason which is the guide of life, but custom. David Hume

 

[alcelc]

Indeed the GX1 was the answer to carry on the position of GF1: RF form factor, similar to G on capacity, but within relatively small size.

It created a room for a more primitive class line of product for beginners / more P&S users. So was the GF3 upto the latest GF now.

Once Panny thought there could be demand for extreme tiny M43 ILC and so the GMs. However the demand was not as expected so it was discontinued. GF has also been produced towards the miniature (tendency) design of GM as well.

If you wish a similar class of GF1 in Panny line up, GX7/85/9 should be the closest nowadays.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Hmm, the GF line (now the GX### in the US/EU) turned into an amalgamation of the GM & GF lines... The GF6 (with which I started shooting M4/3 btw) had actually grown to be the largest GF ever, and then they did a 180 when they put out the GF7, then later the GX850 (GF9 in the JDM) and GX880 (GF10). There was a GF8 over in Japan too IIRC which was pretty similar to the 7, just like the 9->10 was.

I'm actually really happy with my GX850, it just about replaced my GM1 and it's missing very few enthusiast-geared feature by comparison, while having quite a few improvements... Lack of Custom spots on the mode dial is actually the only thing that comes to mind. Very underrated body for stills IMO, it's video capabilities would be more limiting compared to something like the GX85 largely due to lack of IBIS and heat dissipation limits (which it handles gracefully with warning messages etc, no sudden shutdowns).

If it was not for the GM5 then the GX850 was probably at least a logical and capable successor to the GM1 for lighter use. Adding a usable evf made the GM5 into a full function basic camera.

I guess (only) that Panasonic had a version of the GM5/GX7 cross fertilisation where the GX85 slot was held in readiness for. The idea would be a GX850-size body with tilt lcd and IBIS - but they might have had technical difficulties making it this small with IBIS and (full) tilt lcd with GM/GX7 series build quality and marketing it at a price into a price-sensitive sector of the market. The GX850 is obviously a GM series camera built to a price and has been targeted for less involved use than the GM5. In this manner I agree that it has to be a very useful camera - just not what I would be looking for. I remain happy with my GM1/GM5 camera bodies. Furthermore Panasonic emphasised the market the GX850 type was destined for by giving a brush over and a new model name every 12 months.

When it became apparent that the GM series and GX8 were not thriving in their higher priced slots due to being over-built to the market the GX85 was re-made into an easier and cheaper more direct replacement for the GX7 and the more compact GX85 (a glint in the engineers’ eyes) which would have been expensive was discontinued (again my guess only). The expensive to build GM series was abandoned to the lower build cost and easier marketed GX850 type.

However even the latter type seems to have run its course. One might wonder if after the hiatus the GM5 upgrade might again be under consideration.

A larger body would simply be a GX##, a GX85 for $500 with two lenses is a heck of a kit... I don't see enough daylight between those two models to add yet another one tbh, but maybe you've got some other feature in mind (besides IBIS) that you'd like to see on a small-ish GX/GF? I love the quiet shutter of the GM/GX### but it does have some restrictions with manual lenses (drops to 10 bit readout since it won't use the EFC and thus forces e-shutter).

A second dial would be awesome but it wouldn't be a huge boon for what I use for and Oly/Pana seem quite insistent on not putting dual dials in small or entry level bodies, still pressing up on the one dial to access exp comp. isn't too bad, I do it constantly during concerts as I fiddle with that and SS.

 

[James Stirling]

The GF started out as what we know as the GX line with the GF1 , then it took a downturn to a dumbed down Camera (gf2) to a really dumbed down camera (gf3/5) and stayed that way TIL the end ... people bemoaned the lack of a new GF1 so the REAL GF2 was the GX1 , no doubt because they’d taken it so far downhill that it needed to have a new name .... the G cams almost went the same way, the G3 was very basic but thankfully the G5 pepped things up and they got more and more as time went on to the G9 which is a full professional quality body beyond even the GH series possibly ..

back to the GF thing .. GF is only a label, And I think they should have called the dumbed down GF2 something else like GFL ? real GF2 is the GX1 of course and so on .. of course they’ve confused things again with the GX9 really being a GX90 and not a true successor to the Gx8. That’s Panasonic - LOL

Adam - this almost makes it seem that the “F” stands for a naughty word

Fantastic ? , Fabulous ? Faultless ?

 

[Tom Caldwell]

There was a rumour a couple of months ago of a GX10 coming in the first half of 2020. It now seems unlikely it will still come in the first half, but I'm sure it's on the way.

The question is whether it will be more in the vein of the GX9 or GX8, or even GF1/GX1.

My basic expectation is a fairly minor upgrade to the GX9. Less likely but still possible: a true GX8 successor.

Personally I would welcome something the size of the GX1, with a shoe-mounted EVF. That way you have both a casual compact camera, or a more serious one with an EVF.

But I'm sure that won't happen, because based on past discussions of the topic, most people detest accessory EVFs. Oh well.

I never warmed to clip on evf units on the basis of neither fish nor fowl.

When attached they are more awkward and also harder to pack. Cart them around separately in case you might need them and often the evf has been left at home - just when you need it.

Furthermore the extra cost of the separate evf is usually quite high and more than the extra cost of an evf unit that was built in.

Maybe you could just economise and buy the evf less body and dispense with the evf unit - but then you could buy either a GM1 or a GM5 (which was to all intents and purposes much the same size but had an evf that did not need clipping on and could not be left at home - just when it was needed).