ZS100 shutter (or something) shock

[Digital Nigel]

I finally did the obvious, mounted the camera on a tripod and turned of IS. used the 10 second timer. No apparent difference when processed thru ACR with no sharpening, so I guess it comes back to normal variability when hand holding, or whatever.

I like the camera, find it to be a good carry around, and I'll leave it in electronic shutter, if for no other reason than I don't have to worry about topping out on shutter speed. And yes, I understand the effects of an electronic shutter with moving subjects.

I'd suggest that it's better to set the shutter to auto mode, which is the sensible default. That way, the camera will choose the superior mechanical mode whenever it can, but will automatically switch to electronic when it can't. There are too many negatives with the electronic shutter to make it your default setting.

 

[telefunk]

I generally shoot static subjects, leave the shutter set to electronic, and have been happy with images at all focal lengths. Decided to experiment to determine if any difference between mechanical and electronic, noticed the mechanical shots at longer focal lengths tended to be softer.

Anybody have similar experience? The first image is a 100% crop on a sunny day, at full zoom, of my neighbor's house number plate, using electronic shutter. Second similarly except mechanical. Both processed thru ACR with sharpening turned off.

Richard Southworth


Electronic shutter


Mechanical shutter

This camera is known to be less than stellar @ the long end... Mine definitely was

 

[Jon_T]

No, single frame (center) focus, Aperture priority. I don't use multi frame focus. The house number is my focal point, center of scene. ...

Guessing ACR skewing the images' EXIF data results for the EXIF tool used.

I am on release priority, but given a static (hold half press for reasonable interval) situation I don't expect any difference. ...

YMMV, but with my FZ1000 when taking pics at tele focal lengths get less OOF images with Focus Priority. Others here has experienced/ posted the same.

Out of curiosity did some real quick Mech/ Elec comparison shots, did see not any differences.

Comparison shots below are side-by-side comparison of OOC JPGs via FastStone Image Viewer (left image in all comparisons is Mech. Shtr.):







Below are the Mech shtr of each shot reduced to 10MP resolution to see the amount of cropping—as noted these were all quick shots each Mech/ Elec shot taken from same distance and handheld; did not the time to 'fill the frame' .


01-Mech.jpg


02-Mech.jpg


03-Mec.jpg

Program Mode; Single Central AF; "Focus/Release Priority" is set to "Focus"

Cheers,
Jon

 

[jim mij]

Ah well, it was a good excercise while it lasted, unfortunately no silver bullet to taking improved photos.

Good luck with raw editing, I gave a few years back, I’m happy eneough with jpgs and a quick tweak in photoshop elements 14 (when I stopped paying adobe for upgrades)


Regards
Jim

 

[Henry Richardson]

I'd suggest that it's better to set the shutter to auto mode, which is the sensible default. That way, the camera will choose the superior mechanical mode whenever it can, but will automatically switch to electronic when it can't. There are too many negatives with the electronic shutter to make it your default setting.

I bought a TX1 (ZS100) a few days ago and the first day I set the shutter to auto so that the camera will decide when to use the mechanical shutter and when to use the electronic shutter. I agree that it seems to be the obvious choice. The default on mine was mechanical shutter though so I had to change it to auto.

 

[Digital Nigel]

I'd suggest that it's better to set the shutter to auto mode, which is the sensible default. That way, the camera will choose the superior mechanical mode whenever it can, but will automatically switch to electronic when it can't. There are too many negatives with the electronic shutter to make it your default setting.

I bought a TX1 (ZS100) a few days ago and the first day I set the shutter to auto so that the camera will decide when to use the mechanical shutter and when to use the electronic shutter. I agree that it seems to be the obvious choice. The default on mine was mechanical shutter though so I had to change it to auto.

Ah, that's interesting. I'm pretty sure Auto shutter type was the initial setting with my TZ100, but I bought it too long ago to be certain.

 

[Jon_T]

... This camera is known to be less than stellar @ the long end... Mine definitely was

True there appears to be sample variations; and the Pany in-camera JPG processing takes its toll, with RAW PP I can get better results—more than good enough for good quality 11" x 14" prints viewed from normal viewing distance.


800 ISO; POF was women

Two images below were RAW images downloaded from Imaging Resource ZS100 review prior to purchasing the ZS100.




91mm/ 250mm lens test

Softness at the tele end is nothing new or unique to the ZS100 especially for its genre/ price. There are DSLR non-pro 70-300mm zooms that are soft at 300mm.

Some of the Nikon and Canon DSLR prosumer zooms lens are soft at max apertures and need to be stopped down 1 to 2 stops from the lens focal length's max aperture.


the-digital-picture.com

Cheers,
Jon

 

[David]

I generally shoot static subjects, leave the shutter set to electronic, and have been happy with images at all focal lengths. Decided to experiment to determine if any difference between mechanical and electronic, noticed the mechanical shots at longer focal lengths tended to be softer.

Anybody have similar experience? The first image is a 100% crop on a sunny day, at full zoom, of my neighbor's house number plate, using electronic shutter. Second similarly except mechanical. Both processed thru ACR with sharpening turned off.

Richard Southworth


Electronic shutter


Mechanical shutter

Hi Richard,

Thank you for sharing your findings! I tried it right now with my ZS-100 in my room; shot my backpack @ ISO 6400 focal length 91mm @ 1/8 sec and to my surprise, the one taken with the electronic shutter is "ACTUALLY" nicer than the one taken with a mechanical shutter. Look below.


Left is Mechanical shutter and right is Electronic shutter. Shot @ ISO 6400!!

The white balance is slightly different. I like the electronic shutter more and it seemed that even @ 100%, the texture and grain of the electronic shutter version has less smear than the mechanical shutter. Actually, now come to think of it, usually high ISO sucks with this ZS-100, but using the electronic shutter, the image is slightly cleaner, have better detail retention than with the mechanical shutter. I've tested a few times in low light and the results are consistent. The images taken with the electronic shutter seemed slightly cleaner, holds better detail and have better white balance and thus contributes to a better acuity and a sharper image. There were some images I took on my holiday that would benefit from this! I'll test day light whenever we have some sunshine, but this is very good..

Darn.. How come I didn't think of this?!?

Very much appreciated for this finding.. Good for non-action stills..

 

[Richard Southworth]

Are these jpegs from the camera, or raw converted outside of the camera? I'd be careful about any conclusions based on camera jpeg output. That being said I didn't do any high ISO comparisons, and didn't see any color differences, more power to you wrt such investigations.

Richard Southworth

 

[David]

Are these jpegs from the camera, or raw converted outside of the camera? I'd be careful about any conclusions based on camera jpeg output. That being said I didn't do any high ISO comparisons, and didn't see any color differences, more power to you wrt such investigations.

Richard Southworth

No, they are RAWs converted to TIFF. And then I use screen capture to show both. I think the color difference is probably due to the florescent lighting (it flickers 60hz in North America) and it affects more when you use electronic shutter than mechanical. I just tested it last night just to see if your claims had any validity. It has even @ high ISO! Shutter shock is more apparent at very slow shutter speeds rather than higher shutter speeds. I have extensive experience dealing with this issue before with my Olympus E-P5 (which was known to have shutter shock before the new firmware was released) as it also had issues with shutter shock at a specific shutter speed; namely between slow shutter speed up to 1/320s and at longer focal lengths (@100mm which is eqv to 200mm (35mm FOV). Higher shutter speed was not a problem with my E-P5.

Anyhow; one thing I did notice in DXO PL2 -- when I enlarged both shots, the one taken with the electronic shutter is slightly less blurry which is indicative of your daylight shot. I did not take it with a tripod as this does not simulate my true usage of this camera. I will do more tests in daylight to see if I get more consistency with the results.


Mechanical shutter. 1/6 sec


Electronic shutter. 1/6 sec

I have uploaded the JPEGs that I converted from RAW files using DXO PL2. If you look carefully at the mechanical shutter version, there is this haze over the letters and the fabric of my backpack. Less haze on the electronic version. And DXO PL2 was not set to remove anything. It is a standard plain setting with no sharpening added.

 

[Wasabi Bob]

3 questions:

1. Are you also using digital zoom?

2. Was the lens, by chance stopped down to the smallest aperture? That will result in some lens diffusion. Adjust to a mid scale aperture and repeat the test.

3. Are you using any of the "enhancing modes" too increase dynamic range or zoom range? Do a RESET and try the test again.

Use of the electronic shutter will slightly decrease the overall dynamic range. Your original photo also loos a bit over exposed.

 

[Henry Richardson]

No, they are RAWs converted to TIFF. And then I use screen capture to show both. I think the color difference is probably due to the florescent lighting (it flickers 60hz in North America) and it affects more when you use electronic shutter than mechanical. I just tested it last night just to see if your claims had any validity. It has even @ high ISO! Shutter shock is more apparent at very slow shutter speeds rather than higher shutter speeds. I have extensive experience dealing with this issue before with my Olympus E-P5 (which was known to have shutter shock before the new firmware was released) as it also had issues with shutter shock at a specific shutter speed; namely between slow shutter speed up to 1/320s and at longer focal lengths (@100mm which is eqv to 200mm (35mm FOV). Higher shutter speed was not a problem with my E-P5.

I shoot m4/3 too (Olympus PEN-F, E-M10II, E-M10, E-M5, Panasonic G3) and have been for 7 years. The Olympus E-P5 has an in-body focal plane shutter, but doesn't the TX1 have an in-lens leaf shutter? Although focal plane shutters can cause shutter shock because of the moving curtains right next to the sensor -- unless great measures are taken by the company to prevent it (and Olympus takes those great measures with the 0-second anti-shock shutter setting or use the electronic shutter on models since 2015) -- I have not heard of shutter shock from a leaf shutter. Am I wrong about the ZS100? Does it have a focal plane shutter?

 

[Digital Nigel]

No, they are RAWs converted to TIFF. And then I use screen capture to show both. I think the color difference is probably due to the florescent lighting (it flickers 60hz in North America) and it affects more when you use electronic shutter than mechanical. I just tested it last night just to see if your claims had any validity. It has even @ high ISO! Shutter shock is more apparent at very slow shutter speeds rather than higher shutter speeds. I have extensive experience dealing with this issue before with my Olympus E-P5 (which was known to have shutter shock before the new firmware was released) as it also had issues with shutter shock at a specific shutter speed; namely between slow shutter speed up to 1/320s and at longer focal lengths (@100mm which is eqv to 200mm (35mm FOV). Higher shutter speed was not a problem with my E-P5.

I shoot m4/3 too (Olympus PEN-F, E-M10II, E-M10, E-M5, Panasonic G3) and have been for 7 years. The Olympus E-P5 has an in-body focal plane shutter, but doesn't the TX1 have an in-lens leaf shutter? Although focal plane shutters can cause shutter shock because of the moving curtains right next to the sensor -- unless great measures are taken by the company to prevent it (and Olympus takes those great measures with the 0-second anti-shock shutter setting or use the electronic shutter on models since 2015) -- I have not heard of shutter shock from a leaf shutter. Am I wrong about the ZS100? Does it have a focal plane shutter?

No, it has a leaf shutter. And as it's a small aperture lens, the blades are tiny, and like all leaf shutters, balanced. So there should be no shutter shock at all.

 

[David]

No, they are RAWs converted to TIFF. And then I use screen capture to show both. I think the color difference is probably due to the florescent lighting (it flickers 60hz in North America) and it affects more when you use electronic shutter than mechanical. I just tested it last night just to see if your claims had any validity. It has even @ high ISO! Shutter shock is more apparent at very slow shutter speeds rather than higher shutter speeds. I have extensive experience dealing with this issue before with my Olympus E-P5 (which was known to have shutter shock before the new firmware was released) as it also had issues with shutter shock at a specific shutter speed; namely between slow shutter speed up to 1/320s and at longer focal lengths (@100mm which is eqv to 200mm (35mm FOV). Higher shutter speed was not a problem with my E-P5.

I shoot m4/3 too (Olympus PEN-F, E-M10II, E-M10, E-M5, Panasonic G3) and have been for 7 years. The Olympus E-P5 has an in-body focal plane shutter, but doesn't the TX1 have an in-lens leaf shutter? Although focal plane shutters can cause shutter shock because of the moving curtains right next to the sensor -- unless great measures are taken by the company to prevent it (and Olympus takes those great measures with the 0-second anti-shock shutter setting or use the electronic shutter on models since 2015) -- I have not heard of shutter shock from a leaf shutter. Am I wrong about the ZS100? Does it have a focal plane shutter?

The ZS-100 does have a lens leaf shutter, so I do not know why it would cause the softness in the first place using the mechanical shutter and I don't think you are wrong in making the assertion that the ZS-100 is leaf based. There seemed to be a common theme with the images I took with my ZS-100; using the mechanical shutter has this haze like layer over the image whereas the electronic shutter version has less. And now, I am seeing actually lower noise using the electronic shutter than using mechanical which is strange. Saw it first with ISO6400 and I said W.T.F last night?!? And today, I saw it using ISO 125. Common thinking is that, there should be more shadow noise using an electronic shutter and that results in slightly reduced dynamic range. But my results at ISO 125 and ISO 6400 so far showed the contrary, it has less noise and it actually gives you apparently more detail. Something strange is going on here. My guess is that It could be how DXO interprets the RAW files maybe and how it converts them to TIFF. All of this can contribute, not necessarily to shutter shock though the initial results show similar softness caused by some kind of shock, but better image acuity using an electronic shutter vs mechanical shutter, because of how the RAW image is interpreted by the RAW program?

I am actually investigating my observation in regards to lower noise using ISO 6400, because initially I thought ISO 6400 with this camera is a write off. But now, I realized that it is not. I'll do more tests though.

 

[Dak on cam]

The ZS-100 does have a lens leaf shutter, so I do not know why it would cause the softness in the first place using the mechanical shutter and I don't think you are wrong in making the assertion that the ZS-100 is leaf based. There seemed to be a common theme with the images I took with my ZS-100; using the mechanical shutter has this haze like layer over the image whereas the electronic shutter version has less. And now, I am seeing actually lower noise using the electronic shutter than using mechanical which is strange. Saw it first with ISO6400 and I said W.T.F last night?!?

The photographs at the start of this thread are 1/1600s. That's too fast for image stabilisation to counter any movement caused by the shutter actuators. It's probably rather tricky to have fast-moving parts that have a net effect of zero on all image-relevant axes.

Try slower shutter speeds where the shutter acceleration does not occupy a major fraction of the exposure time.

 

[David]

The ZS-100 does have a lens leaf shutter, so I do not know why it would cause the softness in the first place using the mechanical shutter and I don't think you are wrong in making the assertion that the ZS-100 is leaf based. There seemed to be a common theme with the images I took with my ZS-100; using the mechanical shutter has this haze like layer over the image whereas the electronic shutter version has less. And now, I am seeing actually lower noise using the electronic shutter than using mechanical which is strange. Saw it first with ISO6400 and I said W.T.F last night?!?

The photographs at the start of this thread are 1/1600s. That's too fast for image stabilisation to counter any movement caused by the shutter actuators. It's probably rather tricky to have fast-moving parts that have a net effect of zero on all image-relevant axes.

Try slower shutter speeds where the shutter acceleration does not occupy a major fraction of the exposure time.

Actually, I've tried 1/6sec with my shots and they had the same issues with the OP's photographs. But I think looking at my samples, that it is not shutter shock nor image stabilization feedback.

 

[David]

I generally shoot static subjects, leave the shutter set to electronic, and have been happy with images at all focal lengths. Decided to experiment to determine if any difference between mechanical and electronic, noticed the mechanical shots at longer focal lengths tended to be softer.

Anybody have similar experience? The first image is a 100% crop on a sunny day, at full zoom, of my neighbor's house number plate, using electronic shutter. Second similarly except mechanical. Both processed thru ACR with sharpening turned off.

Richard Southworth


Electronic shutter


Mechanical shutter

Doing my tests with my ZS-100, I concluded that I think the issue is not shutter shock. I think the issue here is an increased level of fine grain noise on the entire image by using the electronic shutter and that fine grain noise gives the slightly blurry photo some structure, and hence an illusion that the image is sharper. This is apparent when using higher ISOs that it gives an appearance that it has better detail and lower noise, but in fact it's not since the extra fine grain noise using the electronic shutter masked the entire image giving it a less soft look and hence better acuity with a slight tradeoff in dynamic range.

Certainly, I like the results using the electronic shutter when shooting long and requires a little less sharpening in post, but as always it's probably wise to keep the shutter on Auto and use electronic whenever the situation applies.

 

[Richard Southworth]

Interesting theories appearing, to say the least. I (the op) don't plan to participate further in this thread, no will I answer direct questions. However all please feel free to keep the thread going, wherever it leads.

Richard Southworth

 

[Dak on cam]

I generally shoot static subjects, leave the shutter set to electronic, and have been happy with images at all focal lengths. Decided to experiment to determine if any difference between mechanical and electronic, noticed the mechanical shots at longer focal lengths tended to be softer.

Anybody have similar experience? The first image is a 100% crop on a sunny day, at full zoom, of my neighbor's house number plate, using electronic shutter. Second similarly except mechanical. Both processed thru ACR with sharpening turned off.

Richard Southworth


Electronic shutter


Mechanical shutter

Doing my tests with my ZS-100, I concluded that I think the issue is not shutter shock. I think the issue here is an increased level of fine grain noise on the entire image by using the electronic shutter and that fine grain noise gives the slightly blurry photo some structure, and hence an illusion that the image is sharper.

Doesn't really match what happens in the photographs above. Now assuming that no shake is involved (please retry using a tripod, and then with and without image stabilisation), it would simply appear that the second image is out of focus. Chance? Or does the mechanical shutter operation interfere with autofocus.

Then there is the difference in operation. Electronic shutter resets the sensor, takes the exposure, freezes the sensor information. Mechanical shutter opens the aperture and closes it down again. For shutter speeds that are close to maximum (which is 1/2000s) and small apertures (here f:5.9) the aperture doubling as mechanical aperture spends a significant amount of its time opening up and closing down. And the opening and closing phases, forming tiny apertures, have diffraction like anything. Could be related to that.

 

[HansGeorg Tacke]

Hello, obviously everybody in this long discussion has given serious effort to find a good explanation for the effect that clearly can be seen in the sample images of the OP.

But I think that the last approach to the problem by Dak on cam is the best and the most probable. It seems logical that the additional diffraction on the edges of the shutter leaves can deteriorate the image sharpness.

In the same context I've found an interesting detail in the DPR review of the ZS100. Go there, open page 6 image quality and find for the ZS100 the possibility to compare standard shutter and E shutter. Select E shutter and you will see for the most critical parts of the test scene better sharpness and detail with E shutter.

Comparison of different shutter types can't be found in other reviews (from curiosity I looked through many of them), only one other camera, the FZ300 with similar effect.

I think they included this option in the ZS100 image quality test for a reason.

Hans-Georg