the big Nikon truck!
Also, the wee little Pentax truck looks pretty darn good with handheld IBIS.
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- Thread starter Sergey Borachev
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Also, the wee little Pentax truck looks pretty darn good with handheld IBIS.
samtheman2014
Senior Member
I agree from a lens test only perspective those lenses do not shape up and the Zeiss was overpriced for sure . However when mounted on a FF body the system results will be better . The new 24-105mm F/4 which I own is a far better "kit" option though with the usual Sony tax added it is not cheap.
They do not have results with a 24MP BODY but here is how those lenses shape up when on a camera { the best way to take photos
}
The cheapest Sony the 50mm F/1.8 same diagonal AOV , same DOF control and same total light gathering as a m43 25mm F/0.9
£279 50mm Sony vs £999 25mm F/1.2
These are examples of why so many here hate equivalence. For when you actually compare like for like { same diagonal AOV, same DOF control and same total light gathering } things do not look quite so rosy for m43 gear. What matters is lens plus sensor as that is how we take photos
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Jim Stirling
The Sony has 4 times the sensor real estate of m43.
Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Exactly!I agree from a lens test only perspective those lenses do not shape up and the Zeiss was overpriced for sure . However when mounted on a FF body the system results will be better . The new 24-105mm F/4 which I own is a far better "kit" option though with the usual Sony tax added it is not cheap.
They do not have results with a 24MP BODY but here is how those lenses shape up when on a camera { the best way to take photos
The cheapest Sony the 50mm F/1.8 same diagonal AOV , same DOF control and same total light gathering as a m43 25mm F/0.9
£279 50mm Sony vs £999 25mm F/1.2
These are examples of why so many here hate equivalence. For when you actually compare like for like { same diagonal AOV, same DOF control and same total light gathering } things do not look quite so rosy for m43 gear. What matters is lens plus sensor as that is how we take photos
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Jim Stirling
Why I said those Olympus f/1.2 lenses are jewelry, beautiful (on their own), nice for collectors, but can they compete with FF lenses in making high quality images?
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for Jonas! I forget, what brands did you like?
Be careful. Writing too many insightful posts can be bad for your health!
Sergey Borachev
Veteran Member
Good catch. Just one of the super specs.
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Lens selection for Sony has greatly increased in the last 3 years. Lots more lenses from Sony, but the best thing is third party lens makers are targeting the E mount now.
Waaaay more 3rd party lenses than in m43. Also you can adapt the largest pool of glass on the planet, Canon EF, to the cameras. Also all the old MF SLR lenses can be adapted and the focal lengths make sense due to no crop.
The lens shortage for Sony cameras is an old myth that does not apply any more.
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Jonathan
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Sorry but I'm laughing my a$$ off at that one. Who wants the best features at the lowest price? Count me in!
I see people lining up now saying 'give me a camera with lower specs and a higher price'.
Not sure why this is such a sensitive topic regarding sensor size vs. price. Perhaps it's the assertion that the EM1ii is overpriced; which i believe it is.
When a camera body costs $2K and the lenses are in excess of $1K to overcome the MFT sensor size limitations, there are simply other alternatives to consider as the fundamental limitation will always be sensor size driving IQ.
In any event, it appears that Olympus has to push 1.2 lenses to overcome the inherent low light issues and smaller sensor size of the MFT format.
Sensor size speaks for itself.
When a camera body costs $2K and the lenses are in excess of $1K to overcome the MFT sensor size limitations, there are simply other alternatives to consider as the fundamental limitation will always be sensor size driving IQ.
In any event, it appears that Olympus has to push 1.2 lenses to overcome the inherent low light issues and smaller sensor size of the MFT format.
Sensor size speaks for itself.
jonathanj
Leading Member
You might be surprised, I said that just a couple of years ago, but there are limits I've run into - mainly around post processing latitude in my case. As long as I'm happy with the shot as taken, it's fine (the same was true when I had a Nikon V1), but try and raise the shadows too much, or tweak the colours too much, and MFT files can be quite difficult. Not drastically, but enough that I sometimes miss even the Samsung APS-C files, never mind those from a larger sensor.
exactly that - diminishing marginal returns.
samtheman2014
Senior Member
daleeight
Senior Member
C
CliffWales
Guest
I have always said the smaller primes is where m43 shines. Fast enough without being too big. A lens like the 25 1.8 is a great example of size, cost and performance. It competes where it can and does so beautifully. The huge over priced 25 1.2 tries to compete against FF and fails miserably.
jonathanj
Leading Member
I agree with you, but, thinking about it, people buy Hasselbad and Leica ;-)
Actually, that's pretty much it, there are two ways of selling cameras. One is pitch the "lifestyle" angle, have professional dealers who take the time to engage with the customers, professional service and after sales care, and a genuine focus on listening to the customer. Do this, and you can get away with not chasing features. Actually if I had the money for digital Medium Format, I'd consider Hasselblad, for example over Fuji, even though Fuji has better features - they have actual dealers I can speak to in person and I feel they actually listen to their customers (even if they can't always deliver).
The other way is to "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap" or stuff electronics retailers with endless waves of disposable consumer products, and forget any customer engagement or after sales service. To do this, you need a constant flow of new models with new features and you need to be constantly innovating. Of the camera manufacturers, the only ones who really seem to get this is Sony. Sony can churn out camera models that are designed like smartphones, iterated like smartphones, built like smartphones, and discarded like smartphones. They successfully create consumer buzz around the latest must have camera then get everyone to forget it a year later when the new model comes out. (How many people now raving about the A7III previously raved about the A7II and the A7I, I wonder?) Panasonic try to do the same, but the problem is that if you try to live by the spec sheet, you die by the spec sheet too - when the latest model doesn't measure up, customers have no reason to be loyal and will desert you in droves.
Unfortunately it's the way of the world nowadays, I don't replace my phone every year, but when I do replace it I damn well expect more capabilities. If I don't get that, I go to a different brand. Now I'm conditioned to think of cameras the same way - where's my new sensor, dammit?
(People use lenses as an argument for lock in, but actually lenses are getting to be disposable electronic goods too - ever tried to get out of warranty service on a lens? How many of these $1,700 lenses will last more than 5 years, I cannot help but wonder....)
I agree, but sadly, when they make that kind of camera, like the GX9, people are whining that it's not enough
samtheman2014
Senior Member
I do prefer a { much } higher mp count, don't care about shallow DOF , one thing I really care about is base ISO shadow performance thanks to being stuck with a 200 base ISO and smaller sensor m43 is very poor in this area. Once you need to push shadows to balance a composition for example landscape or brighten a dark bird against a bright background m43 falls behind. There are many superbly captured BIF shots posted in the forum a true example of photographer skill , but take a closer look at them and see how noisy the bird becomes due to the major brightness difference between the sky and the bird.
This is an example of how we are disadvantaged at base ISO compared to APS ,FF and even the Sony 1" sensors are at least as good in this area. This is of course an extreme example to make my point however with the best FF and APS there is basically no penalty for doing so whereas with m43 ! Now if we had a lower true base ISO things may be different but for a base ISO maximum image quality shooter like myself i will be shooting at the native base ISO on which ever camera I use
This is not something that I use once in a blue moon but on a very regular basis { perhaps not to this extreme though
}
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Jim Stirling
samtheman2014
Senior Member
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