why doesn't 5DmarkII have 50D's 9 cross AF sensor?

[matthew Thomas631204]

But is it faster if you start with the image close to focus?

Obviously if the lens needed to travel a great distance in the sample shown in the review. I suspect that with the focus near, it will be very fast. Note how it begins to accelerate as it approaches full focus.

...on the 5DmkII.

It's still a 4-second affair, dog slow compared to the newest kid on
the block (Panasonic's Mini 4/3)

http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/CanonEOS5DMarkII/Images/HD/5dmkii_capture_overhdmi.mov

--
http://www.thomasarts.com (company website)

http://gallery.me.com/thomasarts (company photo working gallery)

http://gallery.me.com/mthomas (personal photo gallery)

 

[MM1]

They could always put in the proven and "old" 1D2 AF system...

While that might help those who count simply count AF points, it
still does not address the issue of cross or high-precision points
off-center for fast lenses. Or didn't you know that?

I know that, of course. But since no one reported 40/50D AF being better with peripheral points than 1D2, I assume 1D2 would be much more interesting to have than the old 5D AF which doesn't have any cross sensors at peripheral AF points anyway.

I hope you don't think that including 1D2 AF would be no improvement over the old 5D AF, do you?

(Hint:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-III-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx shows the old and new system side-by-side.)

--
Erik

--
Cheers,
Martin

 

[carlk]

No I just want 8 outer AF points that are usable that's all.

Fortunately for you, Canon has two models that have off-center
high-precision AF. No one else has any.

--
Erik

 

[Erik Magnuson]

I know that, of course. But since no one reported 40/50D AF being
better with peripheral points than 1D2, I assume 1D2 would be much
more interesting to have than the old 5D AF which doesn't have any
cross sensors at peripheral AF points anyway.

So your real complaint is that they just did not change anything? You want change just for change sake? (BTW if you want the 1DsII for it's AF, you can always buy one.) If you had a specific usage issue with the 5D AF that was significantly improved in the 1DsII AF, that I can understand. But off-center pin-point focus is not it.

I hope you don't think that including 1D2 AF would be no improvement
over the old 5D AF, do you?

The biggest improvement is that it would have keep the whiners silent until they figured out that the new-old AF didn't address their issues either.

--
Erik

 

[Erik Magnuson]

No I just want 8 outer AF points that are usable that's all.

Good luck with that. Let us know where you find it.

--
Erik

 

[MM1]

I know that, of course. But since no one reported 40/50D AF being
better with peripheral points than 1D2, I assume 1D2 would be much
more interesting to have than the old 5D AF which doesn't have any
cross sensors at peripheral AF points anyway.

So your real complaint is that they just did not change anything?

I believe (well, I am not fortunate enough to test 1D2 and 5D1) that the 1D2 AF is better...

You want change just for change sake? (BTW if you want the 1DsII
for it's AF, you can always buy one.)

Problem is, that 1Ds2 is very expensive even second hand, it is a big brick and uses somewhat old battery. However, I am thinking about 1D2 or 1D2n for the sake of AF which is considerably less expensive, hence it would add some positives to the brick-shape-weight and hefty price negatives.

If you had a specific usage
issue with the 5D AF that was significantly improved in the 1DsII AF,
that I can understand. But off-center pin-point focus is not it.

So the 1D2 AF peripheral points are as problematic as the ones in 5D or 30D? Right?

I hope you don't think that including 1D2 AF would be no improvement
over the old 5D AF, do you?

The biggest improvement is that it would have keep the whiners silent
until they figured out that the new-old AF didn't address their
issues either.

Until someone affirms that the 1D2 AF's peripheral points are no better than 30D's or 5D's, I believe my issues would be addressed. And if I am wrong in this expectation, then since I've been told many times that there is nothing like brand loyalty, I can whine all I want.

--
Erik

--
Cheers,
Martin

 

[RobertMartinu]

Standard or high precision is defined by the length of the sensor bars (or by the amount of photosites in them, but as the xxD sensors have constant photosite sizes its the same).

Thats why high precision only works at the center - a longer bar in the periphery would reach beyond the useable image circle.

The 1D-AF features tighter spaced photosites, thus allowing f/4 high precision and f/2.8 horizontal high precision. Guess why that system requires a bit more light to work good.

 

[carlk]

That was exactly my point. The supposedly ultimate portait camera won't allow you to use 85L and follow the one third rule?

No I just want 8 outer AF points that are usable that's all.

Good luck with that. Let us know where you find it.

--
Erik

 

[Amin Sabet]

Carl, I think you attributing more to me than I said. My point was that it seems that Canon put the better static subject AF in the 50D and the better moving subject AF in the 5D II. I didn't say that they made the correct choice! I agree with you that for most 5D II users, choosing better tracking at the expense of cross type peripheral AF sensors was not a great idea. That said, I think you will be pleasantly suprised by the peripheral AF points if and when you give the 5D II a chance.

I think it's fair to say, based on available data including Chuck
Westfall's comments, that the 50D 9 cross-type sensor AF is better
for static subjects and the 5D II system is better for tracking
dynamic ones. It's a shame that they couldn't combine the two. 9
cross point sensors with 6 assist points around the center would have
been a compelling system for the 5D II without encroaching on the
Canon 1 series capabilities.

--
-Amin

--
-Amin
http://flickr.com/asabet

 

[Erik Magnuson]

That was exactly my point. The supposedly ultimate portait camera
won't allow you to use 85L and follow the one third rule?

It will, but only if you know how to use it (gee, how have people been using the 85L all these years w/o this?) Just depending on the AF isn't the way. BTW, I thought the 1DsIII was the ultimate portrait camera from Canon. Nothing the 5D2 has over the 1DsIII is particularly relevant for this application.

--
Erik

 

[Necip]

I've compared shooting with the 40D against my old 5D and I can see why they went with the 5D focusing system as it is most definately better. While the 40D is quicker with all 9 cross points at getting near focus and tracking, the centre assisted points on the 5D is amazingly accurate but a tad slower getting there but once it locks on it doesn't lose the accurate focus tracking so images are tack sharp while the 40D can quite often result in almost there focusing.

40D and 50D both have the "new" AF system with 9 AF points having
cross sensor. meanwhile the 5D mark II still keeps the 1 cross sensor
in the center and has 8 points which are not cross type. any reason
for this? any vantages?

so far i couldn't find an answer here on the forum.
regards
thomas

--
visit my homepage http://thomas.im
portrait - studio - streetlife

--

http://photo.net/photos/Neciphoto

http://necipperver.googlepages.com

 

[Dragos Nenciu]

I had a 1dmk2 and have a 5d and I can tell you that the 1d AF was much better than the 5d.

The peripheral points on the 1d can be clustered and you can use more than one in a cluster to focus/track.

The center point is cross even at f4, and focuses up to f8 (good for extenders).

With my 5d I would not dream of using the peripheral point's to focus as they are cr@p and my rate of OOF would be really high.

The center point on the 5d is ok but having to focus/recompose sucks.

 

[carlk]

Not too well I assume. That’s why we hear so many people say 85L is the most difficult lens to use. It should not be the case if you have the skill AND the right equipment. I can get very good results shooting candid portrait with 85L but I can use the center AF point only.

Again so much for this keyboard photography of yours. Please no more bs unless you really have experience of shooting super thin DOF and know what this is all about.

Erik Magnuson wrote:
(gee, how have people

been using the 85L all these years w/o this?) > Erik

 

[marek b]

It was because the old 5D's af was better for AI-servo tracking than
the new 40D/50D's af. Therefore, it was chosen instead of the newer
AF.

Either way, I think its kind of sad they couldnt improve on the AF of
the 5D after three years.

a WHOLE 3 years? You realize the initial 45 point AF system lasted
from 1998 when it came out in the EOS-3 until the 1D3 came out in
Spring of 2007. So that's 9 years between AF upgrades and you're
whinning over 3 years without an upgraded AF?

hm.. why not use it in the 5d, if they have it since 1998 nikon can..

 

[Erik Magnuson]

I believe (well, I am not fortunate enough to test 1D2 and 5D1) that
the 1D2 AF is better...

Better for what? One thing it can do is track at 10FPS. That's not particularly useful in the 5D2. What is it that you want to do? You should test both before making a decision based simply on paper specs.

Problem is, that 1Ds2 is very expensive even second hand,

About $4k at KEH. If you can find a system as much resolution and the AF you want at a better price, than buy it.

and uses somewhat old battery

Who cares if it's "somewhat old?" Does it have the capacity for a days shooting for your usage? Does it have the temperature range you need? Can you get replacement batteries? Give me a practical reason, not some gear-head reason. (Weight might be a good reason, but you already mentioned it in the brick comment.)

So the 1D2 AF peripheral points are as problematic as the ones in 5D
or 30D? Right?

They are neither cross points or high-precision points or spread very far off-center. If that's your problem, then don't expect improvement. You'll see the same sort of complaints about the D700, e.g.:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=28880625

--
Erik

 

[Theresa Zittritsch]

Kabe, I have both cameras and have taken 1000's of sports pictures
and the 5D is 'much' better in every aspect in taking sports pictures
than the 40D. No contest. Too many folks seem to focus on
spec's and what 'they think' rather than experience. I suppose you
could make some argument that machine gunning (high frame rate)
pictures might result in getting the perfect shot, but I haven't had
that experience. Experience and reliable focus seems to do it for
me, and the 5D has much better focus.

You do mean "much better servo focus", right?

--
My concert photos and more:
http://insinityphotography.blogspot.com/
http://insinity.deviantart.com/

So just to be clear. Servo focus for the sports I shoot just hasn't been reliable with either camera. I'm sure if the subject was moving at a constant speed, it may work much better. I use 1-shot mode (single focus point) primarilly and shoot at the instant I need to. I am shooting football. I try to use my 40D with 70-200 f/2.8 L lens but the number of acceptable shots is just far too low. I get more reliable focus with the 5D and 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L lens. I'm sure with stationary lighted subjects the focus would be no different between cameras.

--
Best Regards,
Theresa Zittritsch

 

[Erik Magnuson]

It should not be the case if you
have the skill AND the right equipment.

The right equipment may exist in the 1DIII series, you just don't want to pay for it.

Again so much for this keyboard photography of yours. Please no more
bs unless you really have experience of shooting super thin DOF and
know what this is all about.

I'll stop the keyboard photography if you'll stop the keyboard AF design ;-)

--
Erik

 

[marek b]

You missed the point and are being picky.

It is NOT going to take another 9 years for and AF upgrade and it is
NOT unreasonable to have expected more from Canon.

I wrote elsewhere recently that people expected the 5D to grow into a
3D over 3 years. People are expecting the sun and moon with every
new model and that simply can't happen.

Here's what people want:

d300 body
5D sensor
d3 AF
1Ds3 viewfinder

All for $2000.

actually.. d300 has d3 af

that's what it's all about.

 

[MM1]

I believe (well, I am not fortunate enough to test 1D2 and 5D1) that
the 1D2 AF is better...

Better for what? One thing it can do is track at 10FPS. That's not
particularly useful in the 5D2. What is it that you want to do?

Geez, all the time I talk here about the peripheral points. I'm not that interested in tracking, although I do attend an airshow or two per year.

You
should test both before making a decision based simply on paper specs.

If I get a chance...

Problem is, that 1Ds2 is very expensive even second hand,

About $4k at KEH.

That isn't exactly a spare change for me, you know...

If you can find a system as much resolution and the
AF you want at a better price, than buy it.

I don't need much resolution, I'm quite fine with my 30D's 8MP, well, the old 5D's 12MP would be optimal for me.

and uses somewhat old battery

Who cares if it's "somewhat old?" Does it have the capacity for a
days shooting for your usage? Does it have the temperature range you
need? Can you get replacement batteries? Give me a practical
reason, not some gear-head reason. (Weight might be a good reason,
but you already mentioned it in the brick comment.)

So the 1D2 AF peripheral points are as problematic as the ones in 5D
or 30D? Right?

They are neither cross points or high-precision points or spread very
far off-center.

I know all of that. But still some people have a different opinion od the difference between 5D1 and 1D2:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29523696

If that's your problem, then don't expect
improvement. You'll see the same sort of complaints about the D700,
e.g.:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=28880625

Ahem, interesting. But Nikon is quoted to by the OP recommending to send the camera in for adjustments.

--
Erik

--
Cheers,
Martin

 

[rrcphoto]

That was exactly my point. The supposedly ultimate portait camera
won't allow you to use 85L and follow the one third rule?

there's only two cameras out htere that have cross type high precision close to those areas - the 1D Mark III and the 1Ds Mark III.

not even the IIN and the Mark II's had that.

the 40D / 50D sensor size still wouldn't have 1/3 rule high precision cross types.

also you have to realize that on the 1 series, there's two RISC processors from Mark II onwards handling AF and camera control - instead of one on the smaller bodies .. so there's design challenges there as well.

even the D300 and D700 doesn't do nearly as well on AF as it does on the D3 - the larger body mass simply allows everything to run faster, process more and handle things quickly without worrying about heat, electrical interferance, et all.