Update on D800 AF issues

[thomas2279f]

Nikon Reps:

(UK) Said the backorder in UK & world is unprecidented and if you preordered already a few months long wait.. pre-orders in Feb/Mar couple of months (Sorry). She said numbers are steadily coming out and factory is at Max. they said that Nikon did well on Video citing that they haven't got the experience of Canon, Sony in video as they didn't have camcorder line and got to a like for like quality now on the D7000 and now D4, D800.

Size:

Seems like same size as my D300s and slightly lighter than the D700 (which I have borrowed from friends and loan cameras). Seems well balanced with the 24-120 AFS Vr w/o grip.

Video mode:-

Nice switch at back on D7000 & output is very good for 2nd gen video (d90, d300s, d3s 1st gen) but on the D800 need to go into Live View - Video and then hit the record button at top of camera; a bit close to the Shutter button.

General:-

Liked the placement of items in the menu apart from the Crop mode 1:2, 1:1, DX which is on the play menu - going to assign this to a FN button.

M/AF button bit fiddly at first (2 handed op) but used to this on the D7000, still prefer the old D300s button.

AF aquistion very fast on this camera (AF-s mode) switching between objects close and far on the camera using the 35 1.4, 85 1.8 & 24-120 AFS VR F/4 - AF was very responsive in 1:1 mode right down to DX crop mode with the crop mode shown clearly in DX mode.

Popup Flash - good coverage and produce good results close - same as D700, D7000, D300s.

Image Quality (LCD Screen) seems excellent at low resolution inside and out, image quality held up when zoomed in 200%+ - Superb

Noise - when viewing on LCD no visible noise up to 1600, 3200 very good (looks comparible to D7000 on screen) and 6400 good - had NR on low.

LCD screen: comparible to the 3.0 screen clear, TFT and shows good detail, no sign on this model of a mismatch tint - screen feels comparible to D7000.

Worth:

Seems like D300s, D7000 interwoven together and doesn't seem to be worth the asking price when you first look at it but as you use it; it grows on you. For me this will be a long term purchase and ownership and going to keep my other Nikon cameras D7000m D300s.

Lenses

85 1.8 AFS was out and nearly jumped on one but not at rrp - wait for this, rep didn't have any news on any new ones coming our way

CSC
====

Liked the Nikon 1 (10mp) - probably see 2nd gen of this with a bit more mp (12) and the really tiny Pentax Q (12mp) but Sony Nex 5n and Nex 7 are superb especially the pro like build and feel, like the lens I tried, macro, 1.8 lens, 18-200, etc and having plenty of adaptors for Sony A mount, Canon, Nikon, etc. I'm glad I purchased the Sony Nex line and good mount to start with (E) and upgrade to the Sony (A) mount if I was restarting off. Just need like for like lens for the A mount against Nikon and Canon, e.g., 200-400 F/4, 400 F2.8, 500 F/4, 600 F4, 300 F4, etc.

Competition 5d MK 3:

Handing of demo unit, viewing output on screen: feels like a 7d and 5d MK 2 rolled into one. Good feeling in hand 7d feel like, video mode like 7d, AF aquistion very fast with single, group, etc A real winner on the hand - just the price need to be knocked down a bit. For Canon users could be time to invest in the F/4 lenses like 17-40, 300 F4, 24-105, 70-200 (in case prices roll up) and think of the body second and in long term starting off with like a 600d / 7d and upgrading to a 5d MK II / III (when price falls to comparible levels as II)

Conclusion
========

Now I can wait for this camera and use my D300s, D7000 as normal going out and enjoying days out, buying this camera I will then add over time some Nikon lenses (possibly 2nd hand), 300 F/4 AFS, 85 1.4/1.8, 80-400 AF/S, 70-200 AFS VR F/4 (if it comes out), 200-400 AFS VR.

 

[Ming Thein]

Except you see it clearly even at 1-2m subject distance; the background is extremely sharp, but the subject is mush. Right and center points are fine, though.

Honestly this is not a new problem at all.

Have you "honestly" experienced this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=41131912

Jorge, on the 24/1.4 it's much much worse than that. On a distant subject (50 meters away) at f/2.8 the lens would back focus so far beyond infinity that nothing was in focus at any distance.

--
Fabian

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

...I can't imagine why it'd be better with less contrast/ lift to help the camera focus, but at least you know it works under some situations.

If you're not seeing asymmetry in sharpness it's probably a lens issue though - the 14-24 we tested was great on center, a little soft on the right, and horrible on the left. This points to some lens issues, and some AF issues (given what was happening with the other lenses). It could also be sample variation because we only had one of these to test.

If you can get hold of a 24/1.4 that'd help you to conclude either way.

Ming

Hi all,

Just to confirm, I have a D800 s/n 3* 5 (US version), and am finding similar problems with the 14-24mm f2.8.

In my case it works in a low contrast environment, but in a high contrast situation, i.e. having the focus point on the inside of a window frame, while the most of the view is out side the window in day light, the left sensor has trouble focussing. Changing the aperture did not help, i found the left 3 AF sensors, all exhibited the same problem. The right side was much better (still a little fussy to get focus, could be the limitation of that AF point), but it did lock more often the not. As others have pointed out, it improved as you zoomed in, so by 24mm the problem had gone away.

Again if I test this indoors I had less issues.

Thanks

WN

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

If they fix it, is it better? Or will they replace it?

Drove me crazy for days while I was testing camera & lenses. I already sent mine in to Nikon. Too bad there is no known fix for it

--
Fabian

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

But this copy appears much better than the 14-24 I tested, at least in the center.

How does it do at 14mm? That's where the issues showed up for us.

Thanks for your ongoing efforts Ming! They're greatly appreciated.

Here are my results with the 14-24mm @ 24mm/f.28, shot near MFD. I needed a -20 AF tune on my D800 with this lens. My D800 S/N is 3001419.

For each image, photo on left was PDAF through VF, photo on the right was CDAF/tweaked with MF in Live View

Left:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-w9R8NGT/0/O/i-w9R8NGT-O.jpg

Center:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-SFpVVVd/0/O/i-SFpVVVd-O.jpg

Right:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-GN5wtXV/0/O/i-GN5wtXV-O.jpg

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

Here are my results with the 35mm @ f/1.4, shot near MFD. I needed a -10 AF tune on my D800 with this lens.

Left:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-f4Ctt4W/0/O/i-f4Ctt4W-O.jpg

Center:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-swKJZcW/0/O/i-swKJZcW-O.jpg

Right:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-wXBwwLN/0/O/i-wXBwwLN-O.jpg

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

...then wait for them to resolve the AF issues. It's very frustrating to know you've got the image quality potential there, but can't make the most of it

Thanks Ming.

I hold a D800 tonight at a camera show and had a demo for about 30 minutes only looking at results on the back LCD and not downloading any images.

My findings:-(limited)
==============

Nikon Reps: (UK) Said the backorder in UK & world is unprecidented and if you preordered already a few months long wait.. pre-orders in Feb/Mar couple of months (Sorry). She said numbers are steadily coming out and factory is at Max. they said that Nikon did well on Video citing that they haven't got the experience of Canon, Sony in video as they didn't have camcorder line and got to a like for like quality now on the D7000 and now D4, D800. Bit evasive with why the price of D800 went up and just after launch (UK). Weren't very commentary to the competition especially the 5d MK III which I didn't find fair - only thing I agreed was the price not being on par with the D800.

Seems like same size as my D300s and slightly lighter than the D700 (which I have borrowed from friends and loan cameras).

Seems well balanced with the 24-120 AFS Vr w/o grip.

Video mode:- Nice switch at back on D7000 & output is very good for 2nd gen video (d90, d300s, d3s 1st gen) but on the D800 need to go into Live View - Video and then hit the record button at top of camera; a bit close to the Shutter button.

Liked the placement of items in the menu apart from the Crop mode 1:2, 1:1, DX which is on the play menu - going to assign this to a FN button.

M/AF button bit fiddly at first (2 handed op) but used to this on the D7000, still prefer the old D300s button.

AF aquistion very fast on this camera (AF-s mode) switching between objects close and far on the camera using the 35 1.4, 85 1.8 & 24-120 AFS VR F/4 - AF was very responsive in 1:1 mode right down to DX crop mode with the crop mode shown clearly in DX mode.

Popup Flash - good coverage and produce good results close - same as D700, D7000, D300s.

Image Quality (LCD Screen) seems excellent at low resolution inside and out, image quality held up when zoomed in 200%+ - Superb

Noise - when viewing on LCD no visible noise up to 1600, 3200 very good (looks comparible to D7000 on screen) and 6400 good - had NR on low.

LCD screen: comparible to the 3.0 screen clear, TFT and shows good detail, no sign on this model of a mismatch tint - screen feels comparible to D7000.

Worth:

Seems like D300s, D7000 interwoven together and doesn't seem to be worth the asking price when you first look at it but as you use it; it grows on you. For me this will be a long term purchase and ownership and going to keep my other Nikon cameras D7000m D300s.

Lenses

85 1.8 AFS was out and nearly jumped on one but not at rrp - wait for this, rep didn't have any news on any new ones coming our way

CSC
====

Liked the Nikon 1 (10mp) - probably see 2nd gen of this with a bit more mp (12) and the really tiny Pentax Q (12mp) but Sony Nex 5n and Nex 7 are superb especially the pro like build and feel, like the lens I tried, macro, 1.8 lens, 18-200, etc and having plenty of adaptors for Sony A mount, Canon, Nikon, etc. I'm glad I purchased the Sony Nex line and good mount to start with (E) and upgrade to the Sony (A) mount if I was restarting off. Just need like for like lens for the A mount against Nikon and Canon, e.g., 200-400 F/4, 400 F2.8, 500 F/4, 600 F4, 300 F4, etc.

Competition 5d MK 3:

Handing of demo unit, viewing output on screen: feels like a 7d and 5d MK 2 rolled into one. Good feeling in hand 7d feel like, video mode like 7d, AF aquistion very fast with single, group, etc A real winner on the hand - just the price need to be knocked down a bit. For Canon users could be time to invest in the F/4 lenses like 17-40, 300 F4, 24-105, 70-200 (in case prices roll up) and think of the body second and in long term starting off with like a 600d / 7d and upgrading to a 5d MK II / III (when price falls to comparible levels as II)

Conclusion
========

Now I can wait for this camera and use my D300s, D7000 as normal going out and enjoying days out, buying this camera I will then add over time some Nikon lenses (possibly 2nd hand), 300 F/4 AFS, 85 1.4/1.8, 80-400 AF/S, 70-200 AFS VR F/4 (if it comes out), 200-400 AFS VR.

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

My glass budget is empty until I get more work in. Just picked up the 85 PCE...

I actually have it up on ebay. Not because it is awesome, but I have to make way for a new addition to the family…. and since I already have the Summilux 50asph… this has to go.

just saying…

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Horshack]

But this copy appears much better than the 14-24 I tested, at least in the center.

I saw on your blog you wrote that the 14-24mm is an "average to good" performer. It's the sharpest ultrawide lens in existence. Perhaps you have a really bad copy. Here's a D800 36MP full-size image @ f/5.6 showing corner-corner sharpness with it (18mm):

http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-qGP6nVs/0/O/i-qGP6nVs-O.jpg

How does it do at 14mm? That's where the issues showed up for us.

It's a little worse but 14mm at MFD is hard to get the subject aligned perpendicular to the image plane.

 

[inasir1971]

Thanks for all your efforts past and ongoing.

Okay, I've finished with some tests for now that we have some light.

AF points: I do not have the asymmetrical peripheral AF point issue that you have. However, I want to note that:

• no difference between performance of leftmost point and right most point
• given the DOF on the 14-28 @ f/2.8 at short distances in order to place three objects at the leftmost, center, and rightmost focus points - the slight OOF I am seeing doesn't look like an AF problem
• performance of the periphery points (left and right) is significantly worse than the center point
• low light performance on normal subjects seems to be quite good.

The color cast seems to be mostly resolved by using manual brightness (even set to 0). There may still be a slight color cast but I note that in live view there is a hue setting which completely corrects this. However, this is only in live view and resets itself each time. So it's not the LCD, we or rather Nikon just need to allow some sort of global hue setting.

Now the bad and I mean REALLY BAD - AF:

• performance on low contrast subjects (any AF point) such as grey clouds on a grey sky is TERRIBLE. It's as bad as any I have ever seen.
• the faster the lens, the worse the performance (I tested with three):
• 50mm 1.4/G - it just hunted and hunted and had to use a far away building as a proxy.
• 14-24 2.8 - still very bad but able to acquire focus (after multiple attempts)
• 24-120 f/4 VR - better but certainly not good (we are definitely not talking about nailing it first time)

i can understand why the manual mentions that the 24-120 f/4 VR was used as that is the lens that performed the best overall.

Program mode - why is this camera sometimes using apertures past its diffraction limit (f/8.3) in 'P' mode when it doesn't need to (auto ISO)? - Mine was using f/9 and f/10 (that's what the screen said)

Nikon have got to fix this. In my case anyway, I think a firmware update could do it

--------

Could someone please tell me how to stop the camera from turning of the main information display when you depress the shutter halfway - without having to hit the info or illuminate buttons? i.e. just leave it on, or until a set period of inactivity. None of the custom functions I have tried seem to do it as depressing the shutter halfway causes the display to blank out.

...then wait for them to resolve the AF issues. It's very frustrating to know you've got the image quality potential there, but can't make the most of it

 

[fabgo]

I saw on your blog you wrote that the 14-24mm is an "average to good" performer. It's the sharpest ultrawide lens in existence. Perhaps you have a really bad copy. Here's a D800 36MP full-size image @ f/5.6 showing corner-corner sharpness with it (18mm):

I'm sorry, but that's quite soft in the corners. If you were photographing something with a high level of detail (landscape, foliage, etc.) it would not look good.

--
Fabian

 

[wl7]

I noticed a lot of problems focusing with the d800 and 24 1.4 before i read this thread. I had also dialed in a -10 AF fine tune, which improved the AF accuracy somewhat, but it is still quite inconsistent. My D3S nails the focus every time with the 24 1.4 and no AF fine tune. My d800 s/n is 3001* .

 

[Horshack]

I saw on your blog you wrote that the 14-24mm is an "average to good" performer. It's the sharpest ultrawide lens in existence. Perhaps you have a really bad copy. Here's a D800 36MP full-size image @ f/5.6 showing corner-corner sharpness with it (18mm):

I'm sorry, but that's quite soft in the corners. If you were photographing something with a high level of detail (landscape, foliage, etc.) it would not look good.

LOL

 

[dennischiu]

Problem on mine too. US serial number is 30016XX bought it from Best Buy. Left side AF point yield bad focus while testing with 24-70 @ 24mm F2.8. This is a problem and I need to call Nikon tomorrow.

--
D800, 14-24, 24-70, 70-200 VRII, 28-300

 

[zoltrix79]

Taken with 50mm 1.8 using f1.8, 2.8 and 3.5. Rightmost and leftmost focus points look the same to me. Also, I think the blurriness at 1.8 is not due to focus but due to the lens not being sharp close to the edges. At f3.5, you can see that center and left and right focus points are identical.

100% crops at the focus points:

 

[Graeme Davidson]

I find the 50mm F1.4G has bad AF issues on the D800 too; it back focused by over an inch consistently when shooting a focus target within 1 meter of the camera. The axial CA was dreadful too on out of focus areas. On my D3X this lens auto focuses dead on, with no fine tuning required. Interestingly, and most disconcertingly, it also back focuses badly on the D4. I find the latter unsettling as it implies something may be amiss with the new AF system shared in the D800/D4 but time will tell.

However, I had a completely different experience with the older Nikon 50mm 1.8D. It is incredibly sharp right into the corners and auto focuses extremely quickly, albeit needing a small AF tune to make it match critical live view focusing. I'm astonished how well the cheapest lens I have ever bought performs on the D800. Perhaps I have a good sample but if you have the older 1.8D it's worth a try. Shame it's not got a 9 blade aperture for better bokeh.

I have also tried the 14-24 and find it was back focusing slightly too. Thankfully my focus points performed equally well from left to right but I feel the D800 is showing up the limits of my copy in the corners.

Both my 24-70mm F2.8 lenses focus accurately with PDAF but below 60mm they are not critically sharp in the corners, with notable CA creeping in. I see this to a lesser extent on the D3X but the extra resolution of the D800 highlights lens issues all the more. I am unsure if my 24-70 lenses are both out of alignment, or if corner to corner critical sharpness can be expected from these lenses. At 50mm the Nikon 1.8D appears to have notably better corners than my 24-70s. I'll perhaps need to send one back to Nikon for evaluation.

There's no doubt about it; the D800 can really make you think twice about your current lens lineup!

--
Graeme

 

[inasir1971]

Three points:

• I had not had time to assess whether my lenses are front/back focusing when I wrote the post earlier. Since then comparing my 50mm 1.4G at close distance between PD and live view - it is definitely front/back focusing significantly. The same may be true of my 14-24mm but at smaller apertures it took an infinity focused shot where DOF can conceal these problems and it is sharp corner to corner.

• My dealer mentioned earlier (before any of these D800's arrived in Thailand) that a very large percentage of their first batch of D4's were also experiencing problems.

• Many people have mentioned on the forums about having to do some pretty large adjustments for focus on some of their lenses which were not needed on other bodies.

Re 'P' mode operation, has anybody else noticed it pushing the aperture beyond the DLA of the D800 (f/8.3) - I have seen it push it to f/11 so far (shutter speed was only 1/250 so there was no need to) and this was not a particularly bright day?

I find the 50mm F1.4G has bad AF issues on the D800 too; it back focused by over an inch consistently when shooting a focus target within 1 meter of the camera. The axial CA was dreadful too on out of focus areas. On my D3X this lens auto focuses dead on, with no fine tuning required. Interestingly, and most disconcertingly, it also back focuses badly on the D4. I find the latter unsettling as it implies something may be amiss with the new AF system shared in the D800/D4 but time will tell.
...
--
Graeme

 

[u007]

I find the 50mm F1.4G has bad AF issues on the D800 too; it back focused by over an inch consistently when shooting a focus target within 1 meter of the camera. The axial CA was dreadful too on out of focus areas. On my D3X this lens auto focuses dead on, with no fine tuning required. Interestingly, and most disconcertingly, it also back focuses badly on the D4. I find the latter unsettling as it implies something may be amiss with the new AF system shared in the D800/D4 but time will tell.

However, I had a completely different experience with the older Nikon 50mm 1.8D. It is incredibly sharp right into the corners and auto focuses extremely quickly, albeit needing a small AF tune to make it match critical live view focusing. I'm astonished how well the cheapest lens I have ever bought performs on the D800. Perhaps I have a good sample but if you have the older 1.8D it's worth a try. Shame it's not got a 9 blade aperture for better bokeh.

I have also tried the 14-24 and find it was back focusing slightly too. Thankfully my focus points performed equally well from left to right but I feel the D800 is showing up the limits of my copy in the corners.

Both my 24-70mm F2.8 lenses focus accurately with PDAF but below 60mm they are not critically sharp in the corners, with notable CA creeping in. I see this to a lesser extent on the D3X but the extra resolution of the D800 highlights lens issues all the more. I am unsure if my 24-70 lenses are both out of alignment, or if corner to corner critical sharpness can be expected from these lenses. At 50mm the Nikon 1.8D appears to have notably better corners than my 24-70s. I'll perhaps need to send one back to Nikon for evaluation.

There's no doubt about it; the D800 can really make you think twice about your current lens lineup!

--
Graeme

You realise that each lens and body combination will autofocus slightly differently, right?

Just because a lens works perfectly on one body and not on another, doesn't mean it is the fault of the body

If the body has a -2 backfocus, but the lens has +2 front focus, you get 0. Perfect focus

But when you put that lens on a perfect body, you get +2. Front focus

Or even worse, add it to a slightly front focusing body of +2 = +4. Bad front focus.

 

[u007]

Now the bad and I mean REALLY BAD - AF:

• performance on low contrast subjects (any AF point) such as grey clouds on a grey sky is TERRIBLE. It's as bad as any I have ever seen.
• the faster the lens, the worse the performance (I tested with three):

Who tries to focus on a cloud?

 

[Ming Thein]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it's a miracle that we get this level of consistency in optical performance at all - especially considering how complex modern lens designs are. Unfortunately, we only had one to test, so I can't say for sure if what I saw was representative of all lenses.

Your copy certainly appears better, but it was shot at 18mm and two stops down - the main issues I saw with image quality were at 14mm and wide open.

Ming

But this copy appears much better than the 14-24 I tested, at least in the center.

I saw on your blog you wrote that the 14-24mm is an "average to good" performer. It's the sharpest ultrawide lens in existence. Perhaps you have a really bad copy. Here's a D800 36MP full-size image @ f/5.6 showing corner-corner sharpness with it (18mm):

http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-qGP6nVs/0/O/i-qGP6nVs-O.jpg

How does it do at 14mm? That's where the issues showed up for us.

It's a little worse but 14mm at MFD is hard to get the subject aligned perpendicular to the image plane.

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com