Update on D800 AF issues

[ScottRH]

I'm waiting. Maybe the D800s.

This issue really spoiled my day, I was so excited about getting the D800, why didn't I wait longer... I am no expert but can´t see how come firmware can fix this! This is hardware! Hope I am wrong!...
--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com

 

[fabgo]

Drove me crazy for days while I was testing camera & lenses. I already sent mine in to Nikon. Too bad there is no known fix for it

--
Fabian

 

[fabgo]

I thought users here might want to read an update on my D800 AF issues. You may recall that I found some problems with the left hand side AF sensor bank only on my body, specifically when trying to focus fast wides; center and right side points were okay, but the entire left group would wildly back focus. Curiously, only with wide angle lenses.

I spent the morning at Nikon again trying out a number of D800 bodies and various popular lenses - I'll put up a detailed analysis on my blog later once I get a chance to write (www.blog.mingthein.com) - but the current situation is this:

1. It seems to be a batch issue. If you have a D800 body with the serial in the 8000xxx to 8001xxx range, check your left side AF sensors (single point mode, AFC or AFS) with a fast wide (24/1.4 is ideal) if you have one. You'll most probably find it's off. We tried a total of five bodies in this serial, and not one could focus either of two 24/1.4s properly on the left side - the center and right points were fine, and the lenses were fine on a D3x, D4 and D700.

I have the exact same issue and my serial is 3000xxx.

On longer lenses (35, 50, 85) the left focus points still back-focus on mine. Not as crazy as the 24/1.4, but the issue is still there.

--
Fabian

 

[fabgo]

The 24/1.4 is superbly sharp if I use live view to focus . 35...is so-so at best. Not what I was expecting after seeing the beautiful 3-D look and sharpness on the D700.

Ming, I had a 35/1.4 that I tested as well. I couldn't get sharp edges on my D800 with far away subjects until I stopped down to f/8.

I did some focusing adjustments and found there is some major field curvature on this lens (meaning if I start back-focusing the center the edges do come into sharp focus).

--
Fabian

 

[fabgo]

Honestly this is not a new problem at all.

Have you "honestly" experienced this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=41131912

Jorge, on the 24/1.4 it's much much worse than that. On a distant subject (50 meters away) at f/2.8 the lens would back focus so far beyond infinity that nothing was in focus at any distance.

--
Fabian

 

[Horshack]

Thanks for your ongoing efforts Ming! They're greatly appreciated.

Here are my results with the 14-24mm @ 24mm/f.28, shot near MFD. I needed a -20 AF tune on my D800 with this lens. My D800 S/N is 3001419.

For each image, photo on left was PDAF through VF, photo on the right was CDAF/tweaked with MF in Live View

Left:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-w9R8NGT/0/O/i-w9R8NGT-O.jpg

Center:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-SFpVVVd/0/O/i-SFpVVVd-O.jpg

Right:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-GN5wtXV/0/O/i-GN5wtXV-O.jpg

 

[WildNine]

Hi all,

Just to confirm, I have a D800 s/n 3* 5 (US version), and am finding similar problems with the 14-24mm f2.8.

In my case it works in a low contrast environment, but in a high contrast situation, i.e. having the focus point on the inside of a window frame, while the most of the view is out side the window in day light, the left sensor has trouble focussing. Changing the aperture did not help, i found the left 3 AF sensors, all exhibited the same problem. The right side was much better (still a little fussy to get focus, could be the limitation of that AF point), but it did lock more often the not. As others have pointed out, it improved as you zoomed in, so by 24mm the problem had gone away.

Again if I test this indoors I had less issues.

Thanks

WN

 

[Horshack]

Here are my results with the 35mm @ f/1.4, shot near MFD. I needed a -10 AF tune on my D800 with this lens.

Left:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-f4Ctt4W/0/O/i-f4Ctt4W-O.jpg

Center:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-swKJZcW/0/O/i-swKJZcW-O.jpg

Right:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-wXBwwLN/0/O/i-wXBwwLN-O.jpg

 

[Huckles]

Mine is in the 800xxx serial.

I agree with you here… the D800 results are 'better than I would have ever expected them to be'. I never said they were bad. Just coincidentally, when you go buy a car, do you test drive it all the way up to the speed limit and that's it.. make your judgement on that? We are purchasing a 36mp sensor. forget for a moment the validity of the end product which is usually a print. dxomark should be testing the sensor, on the sensor… not on it's potential print that an assumed user would print to… what if the print were a billboard? Totally different tools, but you say you have the D4 for testing and pixel to pixel, how was it? If you don't compare that way, you might as well just buy a d700 (which is still very nice by the way) and be done with it.

To use your car analogy, it's like testing a car on a racetrack because it has a larger engine than your old car and then complaining that it's noisier at 150 mph on the race track than your old car is when you drive it at 65 mph on the highway. Although it's interesting to note that the new car is noisy at 150 mph, don't you also want to drive it on the highway at 65mph and compare its noise level then? Wouldn't this make sense if most of the time you're going to be driving it at normal highway speeds?

But hang on.. The larger engine car CAN do 150mph.. the old car can't.. that's kind of a big thing. Also to make it 'fair' if these 2 cars raced for pink slips, do you think either owner would back down the performance to 'make the race fair'? I don't think so. You don't have to try and convince me of anything… I have the full set of bodies with me and and happy with them all because they are ALL different… If you stepped back and looked at it holistically, instead of getting caught up… Alot of people want this to be THE perfect camera… there are no free lunches, the fact that you can downsample it and the pictures look fantastic is a HUGE bonus! But my contention is that this process should not be included in testing and the camera should be judged on it's pure merit, in which it would be fantastic anyway. Tell me something. IF you were shooting an event for a client and the client HAD to take the file immedately from the camera… straight up… what would be your choice of camera to use? Interesting isn't it… I would gather if you said the D800… you definately don't have the D4/D3s…

but each to their own.

--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root

 

[Ming Thein]

Just use it above 20mm But I would definitely send it in.

Look at the bright side: better to find out now than later after shooting something critical!

Hi Ming,

My apologies for my poor English.

I ran some tests, nothing scientific: Tripod, SB800, Timer Nikkor 14-28 2.8
These don´t look good....

14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word RIGHT and using the furthest right focus point.



14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word CENTRE and using the centre focus point.



14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word LEFT and using the furthest LEFT focus point.



Things improve a little @ 20 mm and I woud say very good @ 24mm. I might take it to the Nikon Service Centre....

--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

Firmware could put a permanent shift in the AF parameters for certain points for certain lenses. It'd work but probably not be as reliable as a full hardware fix.

This issue really spoiled my day, I was so excited about getting the D800, why didn't I wait longer... I am no expert but can´t see how come firmware can fix this! This is hardware! Hope I am wrong!...
--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

But you'd be surprised how many nasty emails I got saying 'but DXO said it's cleaner at high ISO than the D700!'

No, it's not even close. But it's untouchable in a controlled studio environment with the right lenses - unless you're using medium format. And I'd use the D700 for everything else.

Ming

Mine is in the 800xxx serial.

I'm stunned that there are people comparing the D800 high iso to the D3s or D4… it is not even close…

Sorry, let me re-state that, if you 'downsample'.. it is.. but seriously, we are buying into a 36mp sensor, not a 12… I don't like it when people change testing rules or caveats to make something look 'better'… imagine if you went and chose a car this way… lol.

it is a sensational sensor, capable of exquisite shots… and I agree, when done well.. it is hard to pick up the D4/D3s e.t.c.. but when done well… it takes ALOT to get it just right… where as the other bodies do it in a canter.

I wouldn't use this past 3200, the D4 comfortably at 6400 I would use and also my M9-p up to 1250, so hope this helps to show you my threshold.

Van

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

Just a side note.. the Noct… outside of approximately 70cm focus distance at f1.2 is superb.

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

If field curvature is an issue, then you should be able to live view focus it to have sharp edges (but soft center) and vice versa?

Ming

The 24/1.4 is superbly sharp if I use live view to focus . 35...is so-so at best. Not what I was expecting after seeing the beautiful 3-D look and sharpness on the D700.

Ming, I had a 35/1.4 that I tested as well. I couldn't get sharp edges on my D800 with far away subjects until I stopped down to f/8.

I did some focusing adjustments and found there is some major field curvature on this lens (meaning if I start back-focusing the center the edges do come into sharp focus).

--
Fabian

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

You're welcome, Harry.

The 17-35 may or may not be sharp enough. The 16-35 is really excellent. Not sure how the 12-24 will do either because it's a DX lens (or do you mean the 14-24?).

I think the greening of the display is also a batch issue, mine is different but not dramatically so (not enough to be considered inaccurate, at any rate) to my D700.

Nothing else that we know of, yet.

Ming: Thanx for the test and detailed post, I did read your exhaustive test with the various lenses on your blog.

Its good to note that it is only specfic to some batches.

I for one am waiting on the wings to purchase one and primarily use if for landscape photography, I am sure that I will most be using the 17-35 & 12-24, It good to know what you have found.

I have been following the forum to see if any other issues have surfarced, for now this seems like the Major one with the other being the greening of the display.

Is there anyhting else that you are aware of or people have reported ?

Thanx again

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Huckles]

I actually have it up on ebay. Not because it is awesome, but I have to make way for a new addition to the family…. and since I already have the Summilux 50asph… this has to go.

just saying…

 

[Ming Thein]

Myself, two NPS reps and the senior repair tech tried:

-Three 24/1.4 Gs. All were fine on D3x, D4 and D700, edge points or otherwise.
-Two 85/1.4Gs. Ditto above.

However, all 24s showed the 'left focus' issue with all four D800 bodies tested (two new serial production, 8000xxx serial; one NPS loaner unit - final engineering prototype; one D800E prototype). The 85/1.4Gs showed softness and CA around the focus point, which the 85/1.8G clearly did not.

Testing was done with both live view and each body AF fine-tuned for the particular lens, and repeated several times to double check. We were there for literally about three hours.

Agree with your conclusions - edges on fast lenses are difficult to focus accurately (the Zeiss 2/28 distagon is notorious because of its field curvature) however we didn't see any issues on other cameras with the same or earlier focusing system, and the right hand side was just fine.

The techs think another possibility might be a misaligned sensor - however this is unlikely because then you'd see only one of the three zones sharp due to the tilt.

Ming

I'm thinking this has more to do with aperture than focal length. It would be interesting if you could have tried multiple copies of the same f1.4 lens.

Do you have a 85 1.4 to test with? That might settle the aperture vs focal length question. The 24-70 f2.8 working makes me think it isn't focal length.

Also, are you using a cross-type autofocus sensor that is supposed to handle the extra precision required at f2.8 or below?

I've been doing some reading, and it sounds to me like the lenses with a larger aperture than f2 can be more difficult to focus because of abberations.

There is a diagram on this page that illustrates the concept of how the light rays from the outer edges of the lens can skew results (the article is about focus shift... apparently not your issue since you kept the lens open).

http://mansurovs.com/what-is-focus-shift

Anyway, since you've isolated the left sensor bank, it sounds like something is out of tolerance.

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[Ming Thein]

No problem - hope yours is OK.

Thanks for the checking the AF issue and pointing it out (JMacedo was kind enough to post this issue on the Thailand thread), my serial no falls in the range you identified. I probably wouldn't have picked it up until later (with my luck after warranty) otherwise as I bought 14-24, 24-120, and a 50 1.4 and did not have any fast wides planned in the immediate future...

I do have the 14-24 2.8 and I will try your methodology in the second post when my battery is charged.

I just picked mine up in BKK - charging now. The Thai only manual, the dead battery, and the fact that this is my first Nikon isn't helping.

I was told by the dealer that about half of the D4's in their first batch had issues - didn't inquire further on this.

Man - the menu system gives you a lot of options.

I did a couple of test shots before putting the battery to charge but the color was really really bad (I did have it set to auto WB) so that's another potential problem.

I am going to start a new thread so people can post issues they have encountered so that we can make sure ours are not affected, or identify and rectify issues and teething problems.

Thanks again.

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com

 

[thomas2279f]

Thanks Ming.

I hold a D800 tonight at a camera show and had a demo for about 30 minutes only looking at results on the back LCD and not downloading any images.

My findings:-(limited)
==============

Nikon Reps: (UK) Said the backorder in UK & world is unprecidented and if you preordered already a few months long wait.. pre-orders in Feb/Mar couple of months (Sorry). She said numbers are steadily coming out and factory is at Max. they said that Nikon did well on Video citing that they haven't got the experience of Canon, Sony in video as they didn't have camcorder line and got to a like for like quality now on the D7000 and now D4, D800. Bit evasive with why the price of D800 went up and just after launch (UK). Weren't very commentary to the competition especially the 5d MK III which I didn't find fair - only thing I agreed was the price not being on par with the D800.

Seems like same size as my D300s and slightly lighter than the D700 (which I have borrowed from friends and loan cameras).

Seems well balanced with the 24-120 AFS Vr w/o grip.

Video mode:- Nice switch at back on D7000 & output is very good for 2nd gen video (d90, d300s, d3s 1st gen) but on the D800 need to go into Live View - Video and then hit the record button at top of camera; a bit close to the Shutter button.

Liked the placement of items in the menu apart from the Crop mode 1:2, 1:1, DX which is on the play menu - going to assign this to a FN button.

M/AF button bit fiddly at first (2 handed op) but used to this on the D7000, still prefer the old D300s button.

AF aquistion very fast on this camera (AF-s mode) switching between objects close and far on the camera using the 35 1.4, 85 1.8 & 24-120 AFS VR F/4 - AF was very responsive in 1:1 mode right down to DX crop mode with the crop mode shown clearly in DX mode.

Popup Flash - good coverage and produce good results close - same as D700, D7000, D300s.

Image Quality (LCD Screen) seems excellent at low resolution inside and out, image quality held up when zoomed in 200%+ - Superb

Noise - when viewing on LCD no visible noise up to 1600, 3200 very good (looks comparible to D7000 on screen) and 6400 good - had NR on low.

LCD screen: comparible to the 3.0 screen clear, TFT and shows good detail, no sign on this model of a mismatch tint - screen feels comparible to D7000.

Worth:

Seems like D300s, D7000 interwoven together and doesn't seem to be worth the asking price when you first look at it but as you use it; it grows on you. For me this will be a long term purchase and ownership and going to keep my other Nikon cameras D7000m D300s.

Lenses

85 1.8 AFS was out and nearly jumped on one but not at rrp - wait for this, rep didn't have any news on any new ones coming our way

CSC
====

Liked the Nikon 1 (10mp) - probably see 2nd gen of this with a bit more mp (12) and the really tiny Pentax Q (12mp) but Sony Nex 5n and Nex 7 are superb especially the pro like build and feel, like the lens I tried, macro, 1.8 lens, 18-200, etc and having plenty of adaptors for Sony A mount, Canon, Nikon, etc. I'm glad I purchased the Sony Nex line and good mount to start with (E) and upgrade to the Sony (A) mount if I was restarting off. Just need like for like lens for the A mount against Nikon and Canon, e.g., 200-400 F/4, 400 F2.8, 500 F/4, 600 F4, 300 F4, etc.

Competition 5d MK 3:

Handing of demo unit, viewing output on screen: feels like a 7d and 5d MK 2 rolled into one. Good feeling in hand 7d feel like, video mode like 7d, AF aquistion very fast with single, group, etc A real winner on the hand - just the price need to be knocked down a bit. For Canon users could be time to invest in the F/4 lenses like 17-40, 300 F4, 24-105, 70-200 (in case prices roll up) and think of the body second and in long term starting off with like a 600d / 7d and upgrading to a 5d MK II / III (when price falls to comparible levels as II)

Conclusion
========

Now I can wait for this camera and use my D300s, D7000 as normal going out and enjoying days out, buying this camera I will then add over time some Nikon lenses (possibly 2nd hand), 300 F/4 AFS, 85 1.4/1.8, 80-400 AF/S, 70-200 AFS VR F/4 (if it comes out), 200-400 AFS VR.

 

[Ming Thein]

...you might well be right. The telephotos are generally much flatter field than wides, which no doubt helps the focusing system. The 105 DC I used to have definitely did not have a flat field at all, but at the same time my D2H didn't have any problems focusing it (or perhaps the pixels were so huge that we didn't notice).

The issue is when lenses perform inconsistently between bodies - the 24/1.4 I've got works fine at every point for D3x, D4 and D700; it doesn't on any of the D800s we had to test it on. Same with the 14-24, and to a lesser extent (probably covered by DOF) the 16-35. Hopefully there's a simple fix for this, or failing that, a new batch that takes care of the alignment issue.

Honestly this is not a new problem at all.

I have experienced this issue with my D3 with several lenses. The outer AF points are always the ones that cause 'trouble'. It depends on the lens, though. I tried it with three different D3 bodies, it's the same on all of them.

My old AF-S 80-200/2.8 is very accurate with all AF points.

The AF DC 105/2 is accurate with the AF points around the center and the more towards the edge an AF point is, the more focus shift you get. With AF fine adjust I can make the outer points to be accurate, but then the drift is happening to the center AF points.

The AF 85/1.4 D shows the same drift towards the outer points. Center points are fine.

The Sigma 50/1.4 HSM I have is good with most AF points except some of the outer ones.

My AF-S 24-70/2.8 is perfect with any AF point.

My AF-I 300/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

My AF-S14-24/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

I doubt it's 'wide angle' in general. Based on my experience it's the optical design of the lens.

--
-------David-------

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com