The definition of "bokeh"

The definition of "bokeh"


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In the conversation I had with the old Japanese man, definitely meant the quality of the blur ("カノンの70-200のぼけがすごいきれです") or something to that effect. But, like I said, it was just that one conversation with that one old man.
Yup, that's believable. In another vein, the article I mentioned earlier starts, "See that photo there? It has boke. See this photo here? It has boke. Everybody loves boke. Did you know that even in English boke is called Bokeh?". They're just talking about blur itself and nothing more. Both your's and my examples are very typical Japanese usage.
In other words, the Japanese also use the same word to mean two different, albeit related, elements.
Ultimately, yes, they're folks not much different than us in that sense, though boke-aji still is pretty much primary when referring to quality of blur in the majority of stuff that I've come across. Since they're well aware of our "std" definition of bokeh though, we may actually be influencing their use of the term that they influenced us to use. Fun!!

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There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
Look, I agree with you but your fighting a battle in this thread that can't be won. There will always be people that think (and believe) that "bokeh = the out of focus area". To them, the ability to generate that out of focus area is bokeh and they have a great bokeh lens.
Well, if the sentence above is too complicated for the masses, then, for sure, I'll lose this battle.
I'll say no more and lots of luck with this thread and future threads on the subject.
I guess I'm just more gifted than the average person in that I have *zero* difficulties understanding the above definition. ;-)
Intelligence is a far rarer quality than you might suppose.
Are we still talking about the definition of technical terms or have we changed gears to US Presidents? ;-)
I would say well inferred but then we might have to start a thread explaining the difference between infer and imply.
 
There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
Look, I agree with you but your fighting a battle in this thread that can't be won. There will always be people that think (and believe) that "bokeh = the out of focus area". To them, the ability to generate that out of focus area is bokeh and they have a great bokeh lens.
Well, if the sentence above is too complicated for the masses, then, for sure, I'll lose this battle.
I'll say no more and lots of luck with this thread and future threads on the subject.
I guess I'm just more gifted than the average person in that I have *zero* difficulties understanding the above definition. ;-)
Intelligence is a far rarer quality than you might suppose.
Are we still talking about the definition of technical terms or have we changed gears to US Presidents? ;-)
I would say well inferred but then we might have to start a thread explaining the difference between infer and imply.
:-D :-D :-D
 
There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
They contradict themselves 13 times in that page by using this term in a way inconsistent with that definition.
 
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There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
They contradict themselves 13 times in that page by using this term in a way inconsistent with that definition.
No contradiction. All we have to do to maintain grammatical consistency is to modify the definition above very slightly:

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality and/or shape of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

Regardless, in no case was the term used to describe the quantity of the blur.
 
There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
They contradict themselves 13 times in that page by using this term in a way inconsistent with that definition.
No contradiction. All we have to do to maintain grammatical consistency is to modify the definition above very slightly:

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality and/or shape of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.
Here are the first four uses there, I will leave the rest for you:

subjective quality of bokeh = subjective quality of shape of blur

hard-edged bokeh = hard-edged shape of blur

renders bokehs resembling doughnuts = renders shapes of blur resembling doughnuts

shape of the
bokeh = shape of the shape of the blur

It works in two of the four cases. Now, try replacing "bokeh" with "OOF blur"... It just works.
Regardless, in no case was the term used to describe the quantity of the blur.
Why do you keep repeating that? When did I ever say that it should be the quantity of it?
 
There will be no agreement until the word can be defined in simple terms without the use of a page of information and twenty images.
Well, I defined the term for you in a sentence. There's also the Wikipedia definition quoted in the OP. Why would you expect the definition to include every single possible example of bokeh and a precise description of it? That's beyond silly.
I don't but there will never be a consensus on bokeh until it can be made simple for people to understand.
You're saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.

is too complicated?
They contradict themselves 13 times in that page by using this term in a way inconsistent with that definition.
No contradiction. All we have to do to maintain grammatical consistency is to modify the definition above very slightly:

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality and/or shape of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.
Here are the first four uses there, I will leave the rest for you:

subjective quality of bokeh = subjective quality of shape of blur

hard-edged bokeh = hard-edged shape of blur

renders bokehs resembling doughnuts = renders shapes of blur resembling doughnuts

shape of the
bokeh = shape of the shape of the blur

It works in two of the four cases. Now, try replacing "bokeh" with "OOF blur"... It just works.
Regardless, in no case was the term used to describe the quantity of the blur.
Why do you keep repeating that?
I believe that was the first time I responded to you.
When did I ever say that it should be the quantity of it?
I was speaking in reference to the choices given in the OP. In any case, you make an interesting point: "bokeh" = "blur of the portions of the photo outside the DOF" ("OOF blur" for short). Thus, when we speak about "harsh bokeh", it refers to the quality of the OOF blur, and when we speak about "more bokeh", it refers to the amount of the OOF blur.

I'll have to think about this!
 
Why a thread on this subject? Because it's not been discussed enough. ;-)

OK, let's begin with Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (originally /ˈboʊkɛ/, /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay — also sometimes pronounced as /ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə, [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens. Bokeh has been defined as "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light". Differences in lens aberrations and aperture shape cause some lens designs to blur the image in a way that is pleasing to the eye, while others produce blurring that is unpleasant or distracting—"good" and "bad" bokeh, respectively. Bokeh occurs for parts of the scene that lie outside the depth of field. Photographers sometimes deliberately use a shallow focus technique to create images with prominent out-of-focus regions.

Bokeh is often most visible around small background highlights, such as specular reflections and light sources, which is why it is often associated with such areas. However, bokeh is not limited to highlights; blur occurs in all out-of-focus regions of the image.


This is the definition I subscribe to. It is also the definition subscribed to on Rick Denny's excellent page on bokeh, chock full of examples:

http://www.rickdenney.com/bokeh_test.htm

Conversely, some wish to used the term "bokeh" to describe the amount of blur (as opposed to the quality of the blur) in the portions of the photo outside the DOF. I disagree with this usage of the term.

This semantic debate is *exactly* analogous to those who define exposure as the amount of light per area that falls on the sensor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_(photography)

In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds, and can be computed from exposure value (EV) and scene luminance in a specified region.

and those who use the term to mean the brightness of the photo:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8148042898/exposure-vs-brightening

Does it matter? Well, inasmuch as words have meaning, yeah, it kind of does. But, if you're more of a "It means exactly what I want it to mean -- no more, no less" then, no, it really doesn't matter. Apologies if I forced you to have read this to the bitter end. ;-)

Of course, one might argue that a more pragmatic approach may be that one can infer the meaning from context. Sometimes, this is the case. but more often than not, it is not the case at all. For example, if someone asks, "What lens gives the most bokeh?", one can infer they want to get the most blur in the portions of the photo outside the DOF. But if one were to ask, "What lens has the best bokeh?", then the meaning is rather ambiguous if we accept that the term has two different meanings, just as is the case with the term "exposure".

Lastly, do I expect a resolution to the dilemma here? Of course not -- that would be silly. What I expect is that, just like the term "exposure", bokeh will continue to be used both correctly and incorrectly ( ;-) ) and the ambiguity will continue, which is unfortunate, since I think the distinction is important, inasmuch as any technical aspect of photography is important.
There may be another option that is consistent with the two most common uses of the term: "bokeh" = "blur for the portions of the photo outside the DOF" or "OOF blur", for short.

This would seem to work all the way around. If we speak of "harsh bokeh", we are speaking of "harsh OOF blur", and thus talking about the quality of the OOF blur. If we speak of "more bokeh", we are speaking of "more OOF blur", and thus talking about the quantity of the OOF blur.

How say you all?
 
There is no such thing as more bokeh.
 
There is no such thing as more bokeh.
But *if* the term "bokeh" were defined to mean "blur in the portions of the photo outside the DOF" ("OOF blur" for short), then the term would make sense when used for either the quality or quantity of the blur (e.g. "Harsh bokeh" = "Harsh OOF blur" and "More bokeh" = "More OOF blur").
 
There may be another option that is consistent with the two most common uses of the term: "bokeh" = "blur for the portions of the photo outside the DOF" or "OOF blur", for short.

This would seem to work all the way around. If we speak of "harsh bokeh", we are speaking of "harsh OOF blur", and thus talking about the quality of the OOF blur. If we speak of "more bokeh", we are speaking of "more OOF blur", and thus talking about the quantity of the OOF blur.

How say you all?
Or perhaps simplify further as just "blur".

I like this blur. I don't like those onion ring blur circles. This lens has better blur that that other lens. This lens' blur is horrible wide open but gets better at f/1.7.

I mean... I see the biggest common misconception of bokeh being used to associate to DOF, since more often than not they're talking about the background blur and not the actual perceived depth of sharpness around the focal plane. Therefore outside of that, I think "blur" fits a lot of common usage and still jives well with the spirit of the whole "OOF blur quality"... at least in my opinion.
 
There is no such thing as more bokeh.
But *if* the term "bokeh" were defined to mean "blur in the portions of the photo outside the DOF" ("OOF blur" for short), then the term would make sense when used for either the quality or quantity of the blur (e.g. "Harsh bokeh" = "Harsh OOF blur" and "More bokeh" = "More OOF blur").
OOF blur is redundant. All portions of an image that are not on the plane of focus are to some extent or another blurry. You need to take a chill because you are on the verge of catching blurry brain disease. What I call Harsh OOYM (out of your mind) blur. If Einstein could not come up with a unified field theory, there is no shame at your failure to unite the Hatfield's and McCoys.
 
There may be another option that is consistent with the two most common uses of the term: "bokeh" = "blur for the portions of the photo outside the DOF" or "OOF blur", for short.

This would seem to work all the way around. If we speak of "harsh bokeh", we are speaking of "harsh OOF blur", and thus talking about the quality of the OOF blur. If we speak of "more bokeh", we are speaking of "more OOF blur", and thus talking about the quantity of the OOF blur.

How say you all?
Or perhaps simplify further as just "blur".

I like this blur. I don't like those onion ring blur circles. This lens has better blur that that other lens. This lens' blur is horrible wide open but gets better at f/1.7.

I mean... I see the biggest common misconception of bokeh being used to associate to DOF, since more often than not they're talking about the background blur and not the actual perceived depth of sharpness around the focal plane. Therefore outside of that, I think "blur" fits a lot of common usage and still jives well with the spirit of the whole "OOF blur quality"... at least in my opinion.
I wouldn't go that far, because it would be more than a little confusing to be talking about a sharp lens with nice blur.
 
Most concepts and terms, including bokeh, have definitions that don't always make sense if you directly substitute the definition (a phrase) for the word (a word). You are guilty of reductio ad adlib.
 
Didn't I definitively answer this question the other day? I'm pretty sure, because it was the first time I ever won an argument on the Internet, thus a very memorable occassion.
 

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