Sensor size, complexity, pixel size and cost?

Judging by your nervous response my English is good enough for you to understand exactly what I meant.
I'm not nervous.
Yes you are, and this post of yours makes it even more obvious.

Instead of having a sensible discussion you are throwing angry insults.
That reply from a Japanese Canon support person is but a jumble of abysmal syntax smothering nebulous concepts.
For a person who can't comprehend it because of very little understanding of the matter and context, maybe it is a jumble. The Canon person who answered is not a support person, and the answer is clear as day.

A front end may contain an ADC, but can't always be reduced to an ADC.
It apparently doesn't even occur to you — probably because you don't even know what "mixed-signal" means
You are so good at making wrong guesses.

I don't see a point in having a discussion with an angry person, for the same reason I don't play chess with pigeons.
 
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part of what he was denying was that Canon would use a 'front-end processing circuit' when they have, apparently full control of the DIGIC.
Contrary to what he says Canon does use front-end, it is right there on the diagram they supplied (the one in my previous post).
He will argue about the semantics of 'front-end'. The Canon correspondent you have is from their support office, I'm not sure that what she said will bear too much dissection.

Still, on the topic of front ends, I found this tear-down of a Nikon D800:

http://www.fixyourcamera.org/nikon-d800/

Nikon-D800-Review-Teardown-134-Digital-PCB-FixYourCamera-Org.jpg


I don't think that anyone would deny this has a column-ADC sensor (actually, the Sony IMX094). The data interface to the sensor is via the white connector, top centre-left of the board. Notice that it interfaces to the main processor (the chip labelled 'Expeed') via a 'front-end' chip (the other one labelled 'Nikon').
EI-166? LVDS, digital front end, present in Nikon Df (based on a NC81366W Nikon sensor), D600/D610, D3200 (NC81369R, Nikon sensor), maybe in some other models too.

Nikon D4 (NC81366W Nikon sensor, same as the one used in Df) also uses a digital front end.

One of the differences between D3 and D3s is the use of DFE.

And why would Nikon use a DFE to support a Nikon sensor? (joke)
 
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part of what he was denying was that Canon would use a 'front-end processing circuit' when they have, apparently full control of the DIGIC.
Contrary to what he says Canon does use front-end, it is right there on the diagram they supplied (the one in my previous post).
He will argue about the semantics of 'front-end'. The Canon correspondent you have is from their support office, I'm not sure that what she said will bear too much dissection.

Still, on the topic of front ends, I found this tear-down of a Nikon D800:

http://www.fixyourcamera.org/nikon-d800/

Nikon-D800-Review-Teardown-134-Digital-PCB-FixYourCamera-Org.jpg


I don't think that anyone would deny this has a column-ADC sensor (actually, the Sony IMX094). The data interface to the sensor is via the white connector, top centre-left of the board. Notice that it interfaces to the main processor (the chip labelled 'Expeed') via a 'front-end' chip (the other one labelled 'Nikon').
Hi Bob,

Sony used to talk about a new 'front side LSI' that was introduced on the A6500 (I think). It made the camera much faster.

I have found this image:



Backside of Canon 5DIII sensor board. I presume the two devices are ADCs. I would expect that external ADCs would be placed near the sensor and not on the main board.

Backside of Canon 5DIII sensor board. I presume the two devices are ADCs. I would expect that external ADCs would be placed near the sensor and not on the main board.

Lensrental disassembly of the 5DIV shows the backside of the sensor board, much different.





5DIV sensor stack back side...
5DIV sensor stack back side...

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles
 
Be careful with that type of analysis; the number of pixels plays a huge role in base-ISO PDR (or DxO "Print" DR). Look at their ranking in terms of pixel count, and there is a very strong correlation.

For any given type of sensor readout, the more pixels, generally speaking, the higher the base-ISO DR, because most of "pixel-level" post-gain read noise has nothing to do with the pixels themselves, and everything to do with the signal path beyond the amplifiers.
Hi John,

Sorry to say, I absolutely disagree.
I'm not convinced that you disagree that much. Perhaps you inserted an assumption when you read my post, that I meant that more pixels is bad for base-ISO DR, and did not notice that I wrote "for any given type of readout". I have never held the belief that higher pixel counts or densities decrease base-ISO DR, that I can remember. I remember arguing for more density for more base-ISO DR with Roger Clark almost 15 years ago, when he believed that pixel IQ throttled image IQ, regardless of MPs.
Let's compare Canon 5DIII and Canon 5DIV, with the later model having 30 MP while the older having 23 MP:
The 5D4 has two things going for it; less post-gain read noise due to a better type of readout at the pixel level, and more pixels. More pixels always seems to help unless base-ISO pre-gain read noise is much higher than post-gain read noise, at which point, pixel qualities limit DR per unit of sensor area (which is exactly what happens at higher analog-gain-based ISOs).
Comparing Nikon's latest generation:
Again, different types of readout and different pixel counts, both working in the D850's favor for base-ISO DR (although a FF full of D500 pixel quality would be about 1/3 stop better yet).

As photosites get less noisy and downstream readout circuitry gets less noisy, it is still the case, generally speaking, that many current sensors are post-gain-read-noise-limited in a way that makes higher pixel density improve base-ISO DR. At some point in the future, this may prove to be less helpful as higher densities create significantly lower pixel DR in the photosites themselves. Even when input-referred read noise charts the same or very close at the lowest analog gain ISO and double that ISO, the post-gain noise may have spatially-correlated noise that doesn't show in standard deviations, but shows visibly in shadow pushes to the same high ISO exposure index.

Any time you see the horizontal trend in DR near base ISO, deviating from a straight descending line more typical at the higher ISOs, that type of readout circuitry would get more base-ISO DR with higher pixel density, as the ratio of post-gain-to-pre-gain read noise is still very high at base ISO.
 
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,,, do you ... think earth is flat?
Whatever happened to the "spirit of compromise" where it comes to hypothetical reasoning ?

34a195092c7f40b19084e2db7a41a494.jpg

:P
There will be no compromise on the matter.

0.0033528 is verifiably different from zero. :-)

— Antisthenes, Chair of the Doctrine Commission, Flat Earth Society.

905a03663723453e865f4a73b9db2985.jpg
Thanks for explaining!

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles
 

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