Ricoh GR problem - on board flash not syncing with shutter!

[MrRiver]

Hi Everyone

I have had my Ricoh GR for 5 days now and it is an amazing camera/sensor, getting some beautiful shots. On at least 5 different occasions I have tried to use the flash and instead of firing when shutter is open it fires about half to a full second later. I then take another photo and the flash fires when it should. This is really annoying as have lost a few shots when fill flash was absolutely necessary.

I have double checked all settings and can't think of anything that is causing it. I usually shoot in AV mode and have flash set for first curtain sync with flash on (flash always fires)

Can anyone shed any light on this? Has it happened to anyone else? Why would the flash operate in the second after the shutter has already closed?

Thanks for your help.

 

[phazelag]

This seems be a lesser traveled forum, as I see you didnt get a reply. I just ordered mine and wonder what happened with this.

 

[Harold66]

This seems be a lesser traveled forum, as I see you didnt get a reply. I just ordered mine and wonder what happened with this.

Not necessarily . It could mean that there are many GR users who hardly ever use the flash. I have had several GR cameras over the last 5 years and I am quite sure I have NEVER ever used the flash ( nor have i ever used this tiny , almost useless accesory on any compact camera to be honest)

Harold

 

[miked58]

I am not sure about your camera but I seldom shoot in AV mode with a flash. This is because most cameras I have used try to get the ambient light (= slow shutter speed) and then fire flash. If you shoot in program mode you will see the difference. I usually use manual mode for flash. I set aperture and iso and speed (1/60th) and the flash is the variable that compensates in the exposure.

 

[miked58]

Just to expand on what I wrote earlier. In AV mode cameras go into ambient/ fill flash. Just because you have flash as first curtain doesn't mean it applies the way you think it will. The camera meters the scenes and selects a shutter speed. This might be 1/10th sec. It then shoots at that shutter speed then fires enough flash afterwards to fill in the subject. If the subject moves (and people will) then you get a blurry photo with nice fill flash. This fine outside in light but a fail inside due to low shutter speed.

 

[phazelag]

This is with my Olympus XZ-1. It was taken in aperture priority, backlit, using spot metering and the onboard flash.

I put the focus point (where the spot metered Exposure) on her face and the Olympus chose a 1/500 shutter and used fill flash from the tiny on board flash. I find this a useful technique when the distance is not too far.

I think the on board flash can be useful when used appropriately. The GR specs say it can sync up to 1/2000. That seems very useful to me.

Slower shutter at 1/200 but similar.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I don't use flash much either but I think that you will find a basketful of flash tools on the GR.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Hi Everyone

I have had my Ricoh GR for 5 days now and it is an amazing camera/sensor, getting some beautiful shots. On at least 5 different occasions I have tried to use the flash and instead of firing when shutter is open it fires about half to a full second later. I then take another photo and the flash fires when it should. This is really annoying as have lost a few shots when fill flash was absolutely necessary.

I have double checked all settings and can't think of anything that is causing it. I usually shoot in AV mode and have flash set for first curtain sync with flash on (flash always fires)

Can anyone shed any light on this? Has it happened to anyone else? Why would the flash operate in the second after the shutter has already closed?

Thanks for your help.

This seems strange - once you pop the flash up have you pressed the flash setting control and checked on what type of flash the camera thinks it is using?

Sounds like you have checked everything but I had to ask (in troubleshooting mode).

 

[miked58]

As I stated above there is a fundamental difference in how cameras work with flash in AV mode. AV mode flash is quite different to Program mode flash
In AV mode in daylight the effect is fill flash as you would expect it to look. Because of the extra light the camera maintains a high shutter speed and movement is frozen.

In low light however the camera drops the shutter speed to suit the ambient light. This might result in a setting of 1-2 secs before the flash fires off. This is not what we would expect to happen (especially if you are used to program mode flash) and it will result in blurry photos. For this reason I recommend shooting in manual mode inside or when light is low.

This is not "hit and miss" and will give predictable results in low light. I shoot studio and portable flash and always in manual mode. Once the three basic settings are done the flash sorts out the rest.

I checked the Ricoh GR manual and it makes no mention at all of the effect of flash in AV mode.

--
Canon 650D, Canon 600D, Oly E-pm1, EFS 15-85mm IS, efs 10-22mm, 24-70L, 100-400L, 24-105L, EFS 18-135 STM, Tokina 50-135 f2.8, EFS 55-250mm IS, 580EX, Hensel and Elinchrom studio lights, Canon Ixus 80IS

 

[phazelag]

Mike, I have been using Canon, Olympus, and Panasonic cameras and I almost always shoot in AV mode which is aperture priority, unless I am shooting studio or landscape. But I have seen all three brands meter the light and come up with a proper shutter speed. I use flash and high speed sync in bright light to lower the ambient brightness and fill my subject with flash. I get my GR Wednesday but I bet it works the same. If you want the three brands I mentioned to select a longer shutter when usin. Flash you would then select slow synchro. I agree Manual is consistent but as a person who has shot tons of events, you can miss lots of shots, there is no human who is faster at switching shutter speed than the camera is capable of in AV mode. I realize we all have preferences but to say one is better than the other is on opinion and not a fact.

I am sure if you have tried a shooting a subject that moves from bright light to a Dark shadow quickly you may get the shot but one will be over or under exposed. Aperture priority in spot metering would kepp the subject properly exposed with no action on the part the of the photographer other than keep the focus point on the subject and shoot.

 

[phazelag]

AV uses the proper shutter with flash unless you tell it otherwise with most brands I have used.

 

[phazelag]

Auto iso will also change predictability

 

[photoreddi]

As I stated above there is a fundamental difference in how cameras work with flash in AV mode. AV mode flash is quite different to Program mode flash
In AV mode in daylight the effect is fill flash as you would expect it to look. Because of the extra light the camera maintains a high shutter speed and movement is frozen.

In low light however the camera drops the shutter speed to suit the ambient light. This might result in a setting of 1-2 secs before the flash fires off. This is not what we would expect to happen (especially if you are used to program mode flash) and it will result in blurry photos. For this reason I recommend shooting in manual mode inside or when light is low.

This is not "hit and miss" and will give predictable results in low light. I shoot studio and portable flash and always in manual mode. Once the three basic settings are done the flash sorts out the rest.

I checked the Ricoh GR manual and it makes no mention at all of the effect of flash in AV mode.

My only Ricoh at the moment is the GRD IV, not the GR, but I tried several test shots where the available light was dark enough to require a 2 second shutter speed in Aperture Priority mode. I first tried setting the flash to Slow flash sync., mistakenly thinking that this was rear curtain flash. It wasn't, and the flash popped at the beginning of the 2 sec. exposure. Changing the flash to Auto (fill flash) shortened the exposure time to 1/32nd sec.

When I changed the Flash Syncro Setting in the menu to 2nd Curtain (which is what my other cameras call rear curtain flash), only then did the flash pop at the end of the 2 second exposure, but only with the flash set to Slow flash sync., and in this case the flash popped twice, once weakly, presumably before the exposure in order to calculate how much flash power would be needed, and then another flash at the end of the 2 second exposure. When I set the flash to Auto (again, fill flash), with the flash still set to 2nd Curtain, then the exposure again shortened to 1/32nd sec. I assume that the GRD IV also again shot a pre-flash and then a normal flash, but if it did, the gap between the two flashes was too close for me to be sure that it was actually doing that.

The OP may never see our responses because his only DPR Forum post was the one he made two months ago and since the first reply came two months later, he may by that time have given up and stopped checking for forum replies. It's possible though that there was nothing wrong with his GR and that he had the flash set to use 2nd Curtain as well as Slow flash sync. since that would produce what he was seeing, at least if his GR and my GRD IV behave similarly.

 

[phazelag]

Yes all that makes sense, and he probably won't see this, your correct. I should have mentioned that in doors or at night I don't use AV mode unless I am on a tripod doing a long exposure usually because of the issue you just described. I also don't usually use flash at night. I use bounce flash in doors and wish the ricoh flash pulled back like my Panasonics or the Sony 's but that's no big deal. But mostly I use flash out doors in the middle of the day when taking photos of people to fill in harsh shadows or fill someone who is back lit.

So for my uses during brighter light the AV mode gives fast shutters and the on board flash improves my photos rather than creating a harsh flash look.

 

[miked58]

Yes all that makes sense, and he probably won't see this, your correct. I should have mentioned that in doors or at night I don't use AV mode unless I am on a tripod doing a long exposure usually because of the issue you just described. I also don't usually use flash at night. I use bounce flash in doors and wish the ricoh flash pulled back like my Panasonics or the Sony 's but that's no big deal. But mostly I use flash out doors in the middle of the day when taking photos of people to fill in harsh shadows or fill someone who is back lit.

So for my uses during brighter light the AV mode gives fast shutters and the on board flash improves my photos rather than creating a harsh flash look.

The problem with AV flash is that it looks great in good lighting. Most people don't shoot in poor ambient light so the problem only surfaces in maybe 1% of normal shooting conditions. It is easy to replicate the OP issue..in fact I experiencesd it yestersday. I did a shot in AV mode with good backlighting..result perfect. I changed my angle slightly and there was much less backlighting and the result was a blurred image with fill lighting as the lesser amount of light dropped the shutter speed before the flash fired.

 

[phazelag]

I have definitely experienced A flash issues, but I guess not the way you described. For me it's a staple during the day.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

As I stated above there is a fundamental difference in how cameras work with flash in AV mode. AV mode flash is quite different to Program mode flash
In AV mode in daylight the effect is fill flash as you would expect it to look. Because of the extra light the camera maintains a high shutter speed and movement is frozen.

In low light however the camera drops the shutter speed to suit the ambient light. This might result in a setting of 1-2 secs before the flash fires off. This is not what we would expect to happen (especially if you are used to program mode flash) and it will result in blurry photos. For this reason I recommend shooting in manual mode inside or when light is low.

This is not "hit and miss" and will give predictable results in low light. I shoot studio and portable flash and always in manual mode. Once the three basic settings are done the flash sorts out the rest.

I checked the Ricoh GR manual and it makes no mention at all of the effect of flash in AV mode.

My only Ricoh at the moment is the GRD IV, not the GR, but I tried several test shots where the available light was dark enough to require a 2 second shutter speed in Aperture Priority mode. I first tried setting the flash to Slow flash sync., mistakenly thinking that this was rear curtain flash. It wasn't, and the flash popped at the beginning of the 2 sec. exposure. Changing the flash to Auto (fill flash) shortened the exposure time to 1/32nd sec.

When I changed the Flash Syncro Setting in the menu to 2nd Curtain (which is what my other cameras call rear curtain flash), only then did the flash pop at the end of the 2 second exposure, but only with the flash set to Slow flash sync., and in this case the flash popped twice, once weakly, presumably before the exposure in order to calculate how much flash power would be needed, and then another flash at the end of the 2 second exposure. When I set the flash to Auto (again, fill flash), with the flash still set to 2nd Curtain, then the exposure again shortened to 1/32nd sec. I assume that the GRD IV also again shot a pre-flash and then a normal flash, but if it did, the gap between the two flashes was too close for me to be sure that it was actually doing that.

The OP may never see our responses because his only DPR Forum post was the one he made two months ago and since the first reply came two months later, he may by that time have given up and stopped checking for forum replies. It's possible though that there was nothing wrong with his GR and that he had the flash set to use 2nd Curtain as well as Slow flash sync. since that would produce what he was seeing, at least if his GR and my GRD IV behave similarly.

Interesting that the original GRD had the simplest flash adjustment of the lot. Everything was controlled off the EV rocker. No flash value compensation and the flash was governed ttl. Worked prefectly - you switched the flash on and the EV controlled the exposure variance, if you needed flash you would get it if you didn't need it it did not fire. I proved this to an astonished camera shop proprietor by changing the flash setting from blinding over-exposure to fill flash only to no flash at all on well lit close up all with the EV rocker alone. But the ranters got their much required FV compensation as the final "gift" firmware upgrade. My GRD never did flash capture as well aafterwards with this added complication to EV compensation. Then of course it merely became increasingly more complicated thereafter.

Not that the GRD was deprived of flash functions - it had the "normal" compliment. I have been forever confused thereafter as just how EV and FV compensation work together. Light flash (-FV) and overexposed (+EV) image I suppose ....

Sorry that this is a diversionary subject, but while we are on the subject of odd flash combinations someone might help me understand.

 

[MrRiver]

Hi guys!

I'm right here and as you pointed I have been waiting for over 2 months for a reply to my question/problem. Thanks for finally replying.

Looking at the answers posted folk seem to be discussing the use of flash in AV mode and the outcome for your photos but this misses the mark of my original question.

I have shot with many different cameras in AV mode and using flash for 15 years and this is the first time I have ever had this problem. It actually happened again last night when I shot the pic below, a typical scene where a small fill flash actually helps a lot. I do find it hard to replicate on demand though. Out of 6 shots it only happened once.

I thought maybe it might have been the flash charge cycle that was the problem but I have been careful to allow enough time between shots. To explain again what happens, I frame my shot with centre focus, I recompose my shot then depress the shutter button. I hear the shutter fire and see the finished photo appear on my screen and then about one full second after that the flash fires.

I then delete that photo because it is missing the fill flash and after trying again with exact same settings 5 seconds later it works perfectly.

Don't let this put you off the GR phazelag, it is easily the best camera I have ever owned for the simple reason it is always with me and always delivers amazing shots (outside of the odd fill flash shot)

 

[phazelag]

Tom,

I use FEV and EC (Flash Exposure Compensation) and {Exposure Compensation) all the time and its actually fairly straight forward. EC doesnt work in manual mode only in AV/TV/ or Auto where EC can darken the exposure or lighten the exposure as I am sure you already know. It doesn't change with flash. The FEV only increases or decreases the flash power and doesn't change any other setting. It brightens the flash or darkens the flash.

A popular technique on bright days is to lower EC (to darken the sky) and increase FEV (to brighten the back-lit subject) or at night to increase EC to get more back ground ambience (like slow synchro) and decreases FEV to reduce the "flashed" look.

Z

 

[phazelag]

This is Christian Hosoi a very famous professional skater. I used high speed sync on my canon to qwell the harsh light but also make him pop vividly with flash. Shutter was 1/1250.

The Ricoh Leaf shutter should allow this with no special magic, just a cable. I prefer TTL, but manual is fine too. My Olympus XZ-1 Leaf Shutter allows this to 1/1400 I think and its great.

This is an example where I handed my camera to a another couple on Mount Vesuvius to take a photo of my wife and I. I set the camera to Aperture Priority with a Canon 580EX2 speed-light set to HSS for Hish speed sync. The AV mode kept the sky dark, but allowed for the flash to fill in our faces. Most DSLR's cant do this with the on board flash, but the Ricoh can do this with just the on Board flash. Flash Sync speed for Ricoh leaf shutter is 1/2000 so I plan to use this to extend my shooting time when normally photos are not flattering.

The Dark Shadows on my wifes glasses would have benefited from fill flash in this photo.