Realistic "WOW" Camera expectations

[kamerakiri]

Olympus Image Track has some nice features on producing a travel map and a database that can be viewed as a plot. Some sharing options exist as well.

Might be nice to have an advanced version of this right in camera.

 

[Raist3d]

This thread has lot of niggling over spec sheet.

Spec sheet in case of Olympus cameras hardly tell the complete, or even half the story. Unlike, say, Canon where spec sheet tells exactly how the camera should perform, since Olympus is known for a comprehensive variety of special modes and software features - it is difficult to understand how the new camera behaves with the revamped imaging pipeline.

this doesn’t make any sense This really applies to all cameras Note that we are just commenting Mk don’t see “ offline” unless you mean other comments in the thread

I posted this before the specs leak happened

Raist3d, post: 65919162"]
I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI AF modes (all the ones from EM1X but finally we get People/Pets)
• Slightly improved HHHR - making the process faster = avoid movement/light changes in scenes more often
• Probably some degree of automatic movement removal in HHHR shots

• Def. improved video quality (bit rate/pro raws support- or whatever the name is- maybe, etc.)
• Live ND from EM1X, but maybe one more stop of filtering sim.
• IBIS - maybe 0.5 stops better than EM1MKIII

• EVF without blackout (at least in some fps modes) in continuous shooting
• 1/3rd to 1/2 of a stop DR/ISO improvement over EM1MKIII (probably 1/3rd)
• Maybe bracketed HDR mode with 14-bit RAW capture, but not 14-bit raw generally speaking

• Maybe improved tripod high res reaching to 100 MP of details through more precise sensor shift mechanism
• Increased resolution EVF, while keeping refresh at 120fps
• Maybe- some way to connect camera directly to internet and upload/transfer shots

• Fully articulated LCD (unfortunately )
• Definitively improved AF in general over EM1MKIII/EM1X
• Dual UHS-II or III card slots (probably II)

• Ability to do Panoramas. Better than what we see on OM10/EP7
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with full AF over EM1.3/EM1X
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with locked AF/Exposure rover EM1.3/EM1X

• Maybe improved LCD resolution
• New UI enhancements particularly where it concerns touch screen.

What I don't expect:

• New miracle sensor designed by OM Digital Solutions / Olympus. And definitively not multi layer like Foveon. Those of you from the 4/3rds era maybe remember the "Trine/Thrine" sensor that never happened
• 14-bit RAW
• Better tones/DR/ISO than best ASPC/FF cameras on general shooting (i.e. not using special modes)

• Priced less than $2,000 USD MSRP
• A major IBIS breakthrough like 1.5 or more stops of improvement over EM1.3

Since they can track stars now, I don't think any more improvement is possible or should be expected. It might be possible to break long exposure into several sequential short exposures and then add them together. Present IBIS already gives good results, for handheld exposures that are 10 seconds or so(as I've gathered from EM 1 Mark III reviews).

rhe whole ten second handheld is very mythical rhats jot the average case at all

• Improved LCD resolution (though maybe it can but doubt it)

I basically expect it to be an "EM1MKIV" - a pretty solid MFT cameras for those who are doing pro work earning cash. Everyone going to jump here remember the current camera you adore so much keeps working the same - do you really need any of this for your photography?

Speaking for myself: to me this is about showing new tech and make it trickle down fast to other models. I don't see myself buying this camera due to size and that I have what I need right now. An EM5.4 that could do the same level of HHHR I expect this one to do could be wonderful.

I hope OM Digital Solutions realizes that spreading the new sensor/cpu speed/key image quality through the whole line is better for them. Distinguish by continuous drive buffer, build quality, more sub-options for some of the features vs the lower end. Overall speed/battery life.

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

[/QUOTE]

 

[victorav]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

 

[tenthwashfree]

I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI AF modes (all the ones from EM1X but finally we get People/Pets)
• Slightly improved HHHR - making the process faster = avoid movement/light changes in scenes more often

Maybe with option of reduced shots to 4 shifts (full colour like Pentax, but lower Res) to reduce movement in scene

• Probably some degree of automatic movement removal in HHHR shots

• Def. improved video quality (bit rate/pro raws support- or whatever the name is- maybe, etc.)
• Live ND from EM1X, but maybe one more stop of filtering sim.
• IBIS - maybe 0.5 stops better than EM1MKIII

• EVF without blackout (at least in some fps modes) in continuous shooting
• 1/3rd to 1/2 of a stop DR/ISO improvement over EM1MKIII (probably 1/3rd)
• Maybe bracketed HDR mode with 14-bit RAW capture, but not 14-bit raw generally speaking

• Maybe improved tripod high res reaching to 100 MP of details through more precise sensor shift mechanism
• Increased resolution EVF, while keeping refresh at 120fps
• Maybe- some way to connect camera directly to internet and upload/transfer shots

• Fully articulated LCD (unfortunately )
• Definitively improved AF in general over EM1MKIII/EM1X
• Dual UHS-II or III card slots (probably II)

• Ability to do Panoramas. Better than what we see on OM10/EP7
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with full AF over EM1.3/EM1X
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with locked AF/Exposure rover EM1.3/EM1X

• Maybe improved LCD resolution
• New UI enhancements particularly where it concerns touch screen.

What I don't expect:

• New miracle sensor designed by OM Digital Solutions / Olympus. And definitively not multi layer like Foveon. Those of you from the 4/3rds era maybe remember the "Trine/Thrine" sensor that never happened

Riddle of the TRINE - from Riley....remember it well, what happened to Riley btw?

• 14-bit RAW
• Better tones/DR/ISO than best ASPC/FF cameras on general shooting (i.e. not using special modes)

• Priced less than $2,000 USD MSRP
• A major IBIS breakthrough like 1.5 or more stops of improvement over EM1.3
• Improved LCD resolution (though maybe it can but doubt it)

I basically expect it to be an "EM1MKIV" - a pretty solid MFT cameras for those who are doing pro work earning cash. Everyone going to jump here remember the current camera you adore so much keeps working the same - do you really need any of this for your photography?

Speaking for myself: to me this is about showing new tech and make it trickle down fast to other models. I don't see myself buying this camera due to size and that I have what I need right now. An EM5.4 that could do the same level of HHHR I expect this one to do could be wonderful.

I hope OM Digital Solutions realizes that spreading the new sensor/cpu speed/key image quality through the whole line is better for them. Distinguish by continuous drive buffer, build quality, more sub-options for some of the features vs the lower end. Overall speed/battery life.

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

 

[Messier Object]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusion

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

 

[victorav]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

I think you over estimate the number of people who know the film camera.

This would actually give the impression that the new camera is like an EM5.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusio

I did look at the link. It doesn't prove that the new brand OM system is somehow "fake". You aren't as clever as you think you are.

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

 

[gary0319]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

I think you over estimate the number of people who know the film camera.

This would actually give the impression that the new camera is like an EM5.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusio

I did look at the link. It doesn't prove that the new brand OM system is somehow "fake". You aren't as clever as you think you are.

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

I agree. Only some of us old duffers from the film era would be confused by a new OM1. Now, if one still is using the film OM1 I can see how loading the film into the new OM1 would get to be confusing…

 

[Messier Object]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

I think you over estimate the number of people who know the film camera.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusio

I did look at the link. It doesn't prove that the new brand OM system is somehow "fake". You aren't as clever as you think you are.

If you’re looking for proof of something then you’re over thinking.

I posted a link to the origins of the name “OM System”, not as proof of something but as information on the origins and meaning of the name

my only suggestion to you now is that you find a dictionary (as a non American I prefer the Oxford) and look for “real” and you will see references to “genuine” | “not imitation”.

In my opinion OMDS has grabbed a name which has particular and specific meaning and a real relationship with a camera system which has multiple sub-systems. They are in my opinion using it purely as a marketing ploy to add credibility to their new products, trading on the history of Olympus Imaging.

I have used “real” as a reference to the original OM System.

I’m not trying to be clever, but you seem to be trying to break the fundamental forum rule.

Peter

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

 

[Rmark]

I’m hoping the new camera will be so extraordinary that the used camera market will be flooded with lightly used EM1 marks 2 and 3’s

 

[offtheback]

The mother in law line was funny!

 

[victorav]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

I think you over estimate the number of people who know the film camera.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusio

I did look at the link. It doesn't prove that the new brand OM system is somehow "fake". You aren't as clever as you think you are.

If you’re looking for proof of something then you’re over thinking.

I posted a link to the origins of the name “OM System”, not as proof of something but as information on the origins and meaning of the name

my only suggestion to you now is that you find a dictionary (as a non American I prefer the Oxford) and look for “real” and you will see references to “genuine” | “not imitation”.

In my opinion OMDS has grabbed a name which has particular and specific meaning and a real relationship with a camera system which has multiple sub-systems. They are in my opinion using it purely as a marketing ploy to add credibility to their new products, trading on the history of Olympus Imaging.

Sure, that's pretty obvious to anyone who knows of the original film camera. That's a good strategy too, why use some random name or "JIP cameras". And no they aren't imitating the original OM system anymore them Olympus was , who were still using the zuiko branding of the lens and started the om-d line camera.

I have used “real” as a reference to the original OM System.

Real also means actually existing.

I’m not trying to be clever, but you seem to be trying to break the fundamental forum rule.

What ever your motive it's a big waste of time, because most people just don't care.

Peter

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

 

[offtheback]

1799 is a dream that won't come true.

 

[Raist3d]

I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI AF modes (all the ones from EM1X but finally we get People/Pets)
• Slightly improved HHHR - making the process faster = avoid movement/light changes in scenes more often

Maybe with option of reduced shots to 4 shifts (full colour like Pentax, but lower Res) to reduce movement in scene

• Probably some degree of automatic movement removal in HHHR shots

• Def. improved video quality (bit rate/pro raws support- or whatever the name is- maybe, etc.)
• Live ND from EM1X, but maybe one more stop of filtering sim.
• IBIS - maybe 0.5 stops better than EM1MKIII

• EVF without blackout (at least in some fps modes) in continuous shooting
• 1/3rd to 1/2 of a stop DR/ISO improvement over EM1MKIII (probably 1/3rd)
• Maybe bracketed HDR mode with 14-bit RAW capture, but not 14-bit raw generally speaking

• Maybe improved tripod high res reaching to 100 MP of details through more precise sensor shift mechanism
• Increased resolution EVF, while keeping refresh at 120fps
• Maybe- some way to connect camera directly to internet and upload/transfer shots

• Fully articulated LCD (unfortunately )
• Definitively improved AF in general over EM1MKIII/EM1X
• Dual UHS-II or III card slots (probably II)

• Ability to do Panoramas. Better than what we see on OM10/EP7
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with full AF over EM1.3/EM1X
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with locked AF/Exposure rover EM1.3/EM1X

• Maybe improved LCD resolution
• New UI enhancements particularly where it concerns touch screen.

What I don't expect:

• New miracle sensor designed by OM Digital Solutions / Olympus. And definitively not multi layer like Foveon. Those of you from the 4/3rds era maybe remember the "Trine/Thrine" sensor that never happened

Riddle of the TRINE - from Riley....remember it well, what happened to Riley btw?

OMG... I had completely forgotten. That name brings painful memories

• 14-bit RAW
• Better tones/DR/ISO than best ASPC/FF cameras on general shooting (i.e. not using special modes)

• Priced less than $2,000 USD MSRP
• A major IBIS breakthrough like 1.5 or more stops of improvement over EM1.3
• Improved LCD resolution (though maybe it can but doubt it)

I basically expect it to be an "EM1MKIV" - a pretty solid MFT cameras for those who are doing pro work earning cash. Everyone going to jump here remember the current camera you adore so much keeps working the same - do you really need any of this for your photography?

Speaking for myself: to me this is about showing new tech and make it trickle down fast to other models. I don't see myself buying this camera due to size and that I have what I need right now. An EM5.4 that could do the same level of HHHR I expect this one to do could be wonderful.

I hope OM Digital Solutions realizes that spreading the new sensor/cpu speed/key image quality through the whole line is better for them. Distinguish by continuous drive buffer, build quality, more sub-options for some of the features vs the lower end. Overall speed/battery life.

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

 

[gary0319]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.

This is more confusing then what they are already doing.

Here, let me help you with your confusion . . .

there is already an OM-1 model, and OM-2, 3 and 4 models. The next flagship camera of the OM System would logically be the OM-5.

Right now if you do a search for OM-1 you will see the film camera. Do the search in a few days time and you will get very different results and that might really be confusing

I think you over estimate the number of people who know the film camera.

It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

What do you mean by "real OM" system? Both are real... The film one just came first.

the real one is the one created by Olympus imaging. OMDS has borrowed the name

Did you even bother to look at the link ? I guess not - probably a good thing as it might add to your confusio

I did look at the link. It doesn't prove that the new brand OM system is somehow "fake". You aren't as clever as you think you are.

If you’re looking for proof of something then you’re over thinking.

I posted a link to the origins of the name “OM System”, not as proof of something but as information on the origins and meaning of the name

my only suggestion to you now is that you find a dictionary (as a non American I prefer the Oxford) and look for “real” and you will see references to “genuine” | “not imitation”.

In my opinion OMDS has grabbed a name which has particular and specific meaning and a real relationship with a camera system which has multiple sub-systems. They are in my opinion using it purely as a marketing ploy to add credibility to their new products, trading on the history of Olympus Imaging.

I have used “real” as a reference to the original OM System.

I’m not trying to be clever, but you seem to be trying to break the fundamental forum rule.

Peter

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

Peter, many companies have been bought out and the new owners continue with the same models with new advancements all the time. The car industry is a good example where companies like Ferrari are sold to Fiat and then to Chrysler. New versions of the same models are brought out under new owners all the time. Nothing nefarious going on at all. If you want to keep an old OM1 good, maybe store it in the glass case alongside the new OM1...kind of a matched pair across the decades.

 

[Raist3d]

The mother in law line was funny!

Attempts at personal attacks can indeed be funny, the question is, do they advance a conclusion to one's argument logical proposal and what does it really say?

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Messier Object]

Olympus ended the OM system soon after they went digital.

When JIP took ownership and OMDS was formed there was no current OM System so the Ferrari analogy is not a good one. Do you think Ferrari, regardless of who owns the name, would reuse the classic model names like F40 ?

Peter