Realistic "WOW" Camera expectations

[Day Hiker]

Forgot a thought I had a couple of months back

AI based noise reduction. Imagine some sort of "deepPrime lite."

If we are going computational, I think this could be a feature-benefit to have. Even an option to bake it in the RAW if it's good.

Likely? I think it's a maybe. I think this could be "wow."

A "deepPrime" solution built into the camera would be the ultimate "WOW" for me. I use DxO PureRAW for a selection of my Olympus images, and it's fantastic. In camera? A game changer. If the process could be assigned to a second processor without affecting general shooting, that would be "WOW+++".

Thanks for your well-considered thoughts, Ricardo.


James

 

[Messier Object]

If either Panasonic or Olympus stick with a 20Mpx sensor this time around as well, it's gonna be a marketing EoL for them. The general groan will be "20Mpx again!?" and they don't have that much good will going around.

Even if they spin properly the "lightest and most affordable camera with uninterrupted EVF" angle, this mostly appeals to existing m43 wildlife shooters.

Hmm... seems with the new era of computational photography upon us, basing such evaluations simply on megapixels and/or sensor size is a pretty narrow focus and based on "old tech" paradigms , IMO

The sales person in the yard lifts the hoods and show the engines to the buyer.

The dinky little 4/3 sensor vs the the big FULL frame sensor.

Cubic inches wins out - easy to sell and the buyer is happy they made the right choice as they drive away - “got me a FULL frame, and it has all that new tech stuff too”

Peter

Weii, if you are convinced

I’m convinced of nothing.

that that is all there is to it,

I didn’t even suggest that

then there is no reason for any of us to go on any further with MFT...

My personal disposition with m4/3 is that the gear I have meets my needs and I hope it keeps going as long as I’m fit to use it. I feel zero need or desire for some Wow camera. Those who are counting their heartbeats waiting for the Wow camera must be dissatisfied with the camera gear they have

. Those guys at OMS must be dunderheads for even considering getting themselves into such a mess.

who or what is OMS - do you mean OM System ? There are no ‘guys’ at OM System, it’s merely a brand used by OM Digital Solutions Inc (OMDS)

Or maybe, just maybe, they know something that those on this forum that are so sure this is a doomed enterprise have no idea of.

I made no mention of doom,
maybe, just maybe m4/3 has reached its place in the market. And maybe those ‘guys’ at OMDS go to work each day doing the best they can. And maybe the executives at OMDS do the same because that’s what JIP expect them to do.

OMDS can’t control the market - they don’t have the leverage. Japan Industrial Partners will decide whether and how soon the doom bell rings, and it’s the bottom line of the financial reports they are concerned with not the tech features in the next OM System camera

owners, users and forum pundits can argue all they like about features and sensors but it will be JIP who makes the important decisions. JIP won’t be measuring success against AF performance or EVF blackout.

Peter

 

[RedDog Steve]

I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI

<snip>

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

"WOW, Is that all there is ?"

The only feature that is impressive is the astro tracking and that's not really all that WOW-worthy since it has been around for over ten years in Pentax. Everything else is just tweaks or improvements to existing features.

WOWn't it be nice if there is something that does come as an unexpected surprise ?

 

[Messier Object]

If either Panasonic or Olympus stick with a 20Mpx sensor this time around as well, it's gonna be a marketing EoL for them. The general groan will be "20Mpx again!?" and they don't have that much good will going around.

Even if they spin properly the "lightest and most affordable camera with uninterrupted EVF" angle, this mostly appeals to existing m43 wildlife shooters.

Hmm... seems with the new era of computational photography upon us, basing such evaluations simply on megapixels and/or sensor size is a pretty narrow focus and based on "old tech" paradigms , IMO

The sales person in the yard lifts the hoods and show the engines to the buyer.

The dinky little 4/3 sensor vs the the big FULL frame sensor.

Cubic inches wins out - easy to sell and the buyer is happy they made the right choice as they drive away - “got me a FULL frame, and it has all that new tech stuff too”

Peter

Big carburetored V8 verses a turbocharged fuel injected V6.

no, the v6 would be an APS-C.
m4/3 is the 4 cylinder WRX - quick off the mark but noisy with a lot of tyre smoke

Peter

 

[silentstorm]

I expect this new cam to have 24MP stack sensor

20fps silent shooting and super fast readout with no black outs using live view

New CFe card format to support super fast readout and captures

Much faster and reliable AF tracking and eye tracking for both humans and animals

Video supports internal 12bit RAW recording using H.264 codec or maybe Sony XAVC. 10 bit 4:2:2 internal recording is a given

A new hotshoe with digital pins to support mics and other accessories, like the Sony.

Better quality and higher rez EVF & LCD

Improve HDR and multi shot hi rez stacking

Internal AI image processing of raw files to output jpg & TIFF, including pano stitching

Built-in GPS for geo tagging of images and videos

Backlit buttons

Same size and weight as the EM1.3 with same weather sealing

Priced at USD1799

 

[Raist3d]

Forgot a thought I had a couple of months back

AI based noise reduction. Imagine some sort of "deepPrime lite."

If we are going computational, I think this could be a feature-benefit to have. Even an option to bake it in the RAW if it's good.

Likely? I think it's a maybe. I think this could be "wow."

A "deepPrime" solution built into the camera would be the ultimate "WOW" for me. I use DxO PureRAW for a selection of my Olympus images, and it's fantastic. In camera? A game changer. If the process could be assigned to a second processor without affecting general shooting, that would be "WOW+++".

Thanks for your well-considered thoughts, Ricardo.

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, it would be wow for me also because I like the idea of in-camera jpeg conversion workflows. But I wouldn't get this camera (size/form factor) but want to see this brought over to a PenFII or EP8 or EM5.4.

James

 

[Raist3d]

I guess entirely dependant on the sensor we get, we could see something similar to the Z9, with a low red jpeg 120 fps mode.

Obviously not wow for everyone, but let's be honest, this camera was never going to wow everyone, even if it did do the impossible and gain 2 stops better iso proformance.

Apparently on 43 rumors, the new omds camera will have 2 stops better low light performance? This doesn't seem like that's possible.

Also the camera may feature a new LCD panel, and hopefully a new evf too.

My guess is there is a new mode for combining images, and for some uses it will be able to 4 or 8 images in less than 1/10th of a second for a 2 stop improvement.

All wild speculation on my part.

Something like that or reduced resolution low light mode.

 

[Raist3d]

I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI

<snip>

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

"WOW, Is that all there is ?"

The only feature that is impressive is the astro tracking and that's not really all that WOW-worthy since it has been around for over ten years in Pentax. Everything else is just tweaks or improvements to existing features.

WOWn't it be nice if there is something that does come as an unexpected surprise ?

What do you think in your opinion that would realistically be? I am not expecting miracles. I think the "special" may be the quad bayer sensor and some special modes along with fast bracketing for specific scenarios that will make it bat above its weight category.

I definitely expect AF to be notably better to what's available in MFT right now.

You are correct on Pentax doing astro tracking for years now. What would this one have special?

I just woudn't expect special miracles. Maybe a "deepPrime light" noise reduction for JPEGS. That to me would be wow worthy... what would do it for you?

 

[Adrian Harris]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

It would certainly continue a great tradition of... confusion

Like the FT logo being confused with the MFT logo

Like old FT lenses (Zuiko Digital) being confused with MFT lenses (M.Zuiko)

This is quite confusing

Like the digital Pen-F being confused with the old film Pen-F

Like Olympus being confused with OMDS

Like the old film OM-1 being confused with your new digital OM-1

We will see.

Any newcomer to m43 has to spend hours to study the brand history... or risk to buy an an FT lens that will not fit his m43 mount, or buy a wrong vintage lens for his Pen-F that will not fit m43,

well even if you did end up accidentally buying a vintage pen f lens, you can buy a cheap adapter and use it on the digital one.

or buy an old film era OM system extension tube that will not fit m43, etc etc. These things do happen, you know. And when they happen the brand gets cursed.

I had no such problem. I only learned about the the film era Olympus after buying mft.

Last such case was just 6 days ago: "MFT lens not compatible with my olympus OMD EM10 " https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65894834

The seller provided incorrect information I believe. Maybe the seller was confused.

This happens with other brands also.

Sony first changed their flash hot-shot mount, then their lens mount, then their lens mount again. And all within a very short space of time. That's when I decided I had had enough and fully moved to m4/3.

Canon and Nikon have also changed lens mounts. I think canon has twice (not 100% sure).

 

[victorav]

If either Panasonic or Olympus stick with a 20Mpx sensor this time around as well, it's gonna be a marketing EoL for them. The general groan will be "20Mpx again!?" and they don't have that much good will going around.

Even if they spin properly the "lightest and most affordable camera with uninterrupted EVF" angle, this mostly appeals to existing m43 wildlife shooters.

Hmm... seems with the new era of computational photography upon us, basing such evaluations simply on megapixels and/or sensor size is a pretty narrow focus and based on "old tech" paradigms , IMO

The sales person in the yard lifts the hoods and show the engines to the buyer.

The dinky little 4/3 sensor vs the the big FULL frame sensor.

Cubic inches wins out - easy to sell and the buyer is happy they made the right choice as they drive away - “got me a FULL frame, and it has all that new tech stuff too”

Peter

Weii, if you are convinced

I’m convinced of nothing.

that that is all there is to it,

I didn’t even suggest that

then there is no reason for any of us to go on any further with MFT...

My personal disposition with m4/3 is that the gear I have meets my needs and I hope it keeps going as long as I’m fit to use it. I feel zero need or desire for some Wow camera. Those who are counting their heartbeats waiting for the Wow camera must be dissatisfied with the camera gear they have

Or people are just excited for 2 new MFT cameras.

. Those guys at OMS must be dunderheads for even considering getting themselves into such a mess.

who or what is OMS - do you mean OM System ? There are no ‘guys’ at OM System, it’s merely a brand used by OM Digital Solutions Inc (OMDS)

Or maybe, just maybe, they know something that those on this forum that are so sure this is a doomed enterprise have no idea of.

I made no mention of doom,
maybe, just maybe m4/3 has reached its place in the market. And maybe those ‘guys’ at OMDS go to work each day doing the best they can. And maybe the executives at OMDS do the same because that’s what JIP expect them to do.

OMDS can’t control the market - they don’t have the leverage. Japan Industrial Partners will decide whether and how soon the doom bell rings, and it’s the bottom line of the financial reports they are concerned with not the tech features in the next OM System camera

Ok

owners, users and forum pundits can argue all they like about features and sensors but it will be JIP who makes the important decisions. JIP won’t be measuring success against AF performance or EVF blackout.

Yeah but there potential customers will. I really don't understand you point. If you care so little why bother participating in a discussion about a new camera.

 

[Bluephotons]

a lens will probably bring you more joy than a newer camera body. you probably know this though

Yes, but I just had a cardiac arrest on new year's day, of which only 2% survive, so I'm thinking I need to pamper myself with I new camera before is too late :-D:-D

 

[V Hicks]

Haven’t checked the link but small sensor tweaks it’s basically still the same Sony sensor Perf

I am sure Panasonic and Olympus are absolutely involved in the design process. Sony knows who the customer is and wants to make a sensor to satisfy their needs.

I for several years was paid to be on a panel and give my opinion on pre-production cars. There were other prospective customers involved in the design process earlier than I was too. So Sony may make the sensor, but not without input from the customer, and very likely with design ideas from the customer too. And now that I think about it, TSMC might be the one who really makes the sensor.

 

[Raist3d]

Haven’t checked the link but small sensor tweaks it’s basically still the same Sony sensor Perf

I am sure Panasonic and Olympus are absolutely involved in the design process. Sony knows who the customer is and wants to make a sensor to satisfy their needs.

Oh sure. But it's Sony's base design and know how.

I for several years was paid to be on a panel and give my opinion on pre-production cars. There were other prospective customers involved in the design process earlier than I was too. So Sony may make the sensor, but not without input from the customer, and very likely with design ideas from the customer too. And now that I think about it, TSMC might be the one who really makes the sensor.

 

[UrbaneHobbit]

Today I keep coming back do the new higher-capacity battery. I myself have found the BLH-1 reliable and ample for hundreds and hundreds of shots per day. On weekend trips I take two batteries per camera and leave the charger at home.

The only times I've seen the battery draining noticeably: using ProCap or the high refresh rate EVF setting. So if the extra power in the new battery is going to be devoted to those same two categories (capture/buffering vs. hungrier display), then that all makes sense. But I hope at least some of that juice is intended for some of the more advanced processing features proposed by others in this thread.

Some of this does feel like simple miniaturization: E-M1X performance and (hardware enabled?) features in a smaller body that only has room for one battery. They shrunk the E-M1 II into the E-M5 III in similar fashion. But this effort has to be more ambitious. I don't think the higher-spec battery exists just to be able to say we'll be able to take a hundred more photos with the same incrementally updated functions.

The old battery is already pretty great! What's all the extra power in the new one for?

 

[drj3]

Today I keep coming back do the new higher-capacity battery. I myself have found the BLH-1 reliable and ample for hundreds and hundreds of shots per day. On weekend trips I take two batteries per camera and leave the charger at home.

The only times I've seen the battery draining noticeably: using ProCap or the high refresh rate EVF setting. So if the extra power in the new battery is going to be devoted to those same two categories (capture/buffering vs. hungrier display), then that all makes sense. But I hope at least some of that juice is intended for some of the more advanced processing features proposed by others in this thread.

Some of this does feel like simple miniaturization: E-M1X performance and (hardware enabled?) features in a smaller body that only has room for one battery. They shrunk the E-M1 II into the E-M5 III in similar fashion. But this effort has to be more ambitious. I don't think the higher-spec battery exists just to be able to say we'll be able to take a hundred more photos with the same incrementally updated functions.

The old battery is already pretty great! What's all the extra power in the new one for?

A new EVF, a new sensor, GPS, the need to process far more information just as quickly (1053 focus points vs 121) and the added real time processing necessary for the AI detection.

--
drj3

 

[Raist3d]

Today I keep coming back do the new higher-capacity battery. I myself have found the BLH-1 reliable and ample for hundreds and hundreds of shots per day. On weekend trips I take two batteries per camera and leave the charger at home.

The only times I've seen the battery draining noticeably: using ProCap or the high refresh rate EVF setting. So if the extra power in the new battery is going to be devoted to those same two categories (capture/buffering vs. hungrier display), then that all makes sense. But I hope at least some of that juice is intended for some of the more advanced processing features proposed by others in this thread.

Some of this does feel like simple miniaturization: E-M1X performance and (hardware enabled?) features in a smaller body that only has room for one battery. They shrunk the E-M1 II into the E-M5 III in similar fashion.

I would say the EM1X Is already "Part shrunk" in the EM1.3

But this effort has to be more ambitious. I don't think the higher-spec battery exists just to be able to say we'll be able to take a hundred more photos with the same incrementally updated functions.

The old battery is already pretty great! What's all the extra power in the new one for?

EVF with higher resolution, new AF, and other higher data improvements. Yes. I hope the new camera is also capable of using the current EM1.3 battery.

 

[kamerakiri]

If either Panasonic or Olympus stick with a 20Mpx sensor this time around as well, it's gonna be a marketing EoL for them. The general groan will be "20Mpx again!?" and they don't have that much good will going around.

Even if they spin properly the "lightest and most affordable camera with uninterrupted EVF" angle, this mostly appeals to existing m43 wildlife shooters.

I tried to tackle it in this thread:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65882397

Not a rigorous discussion, but enough to make logical sense. I explained my rationale for expecting no more than 25Mp in MFT with current tech, and we are likely to get it in GH6, according to discussion on rumor sites. 30Mp may be a stretch but still reasonable.

On smartphones, any resolution above 12 or 16 Mp is always Quad Bayer. So those high numbers like 64Mp are not truly 64Mp but rather built from interpolation.

Apparently, Canon 5D Mark III had 22Mp in 2012, and Canon R6 has 20Mp today - people have happily used both cameras.

Why this sudden obsession with megapixels? Like how high does anyone need? It is not going above 30Mp for MFT in this decade(unless some new sensor manufacturing process comes up).

 

[nearly-an-old-codger]

If either Panasonic or Olympus stick with a 20Mpx sensor this time around as well, it's gonna be a marketing EoL for them. The general groan will be "20Mpx again!?" and they don't have that much good will going around.

Even if they spin properly the "lightest and most affordable camera with uninterrupted EVF" angle, this mostly appeals to existing m43 wildlife shooters.

I tried to tackle it in this thread:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65882397

Not a rigorous discussion, but enough to make logical sense. I explained my rationale for expecting no more than 25Mp in MFT with current tech, and we are likely to get it in GH6, according to discussion on rumor sites. 30Mp may be a stretch but still reasonable.

On smartphones, any resolution above 12 or 16 Mp is always Quad Bayer. So those high numbers like 64Mp are not truly 64Mp but rather built from interpolation.

Apparently, Canon 5D Mark III had 22Mp in 2012, and Canon R6 has 20Mp today - people have happily used both cameras.

Why this sudden obsession with megapixels? Like how high does anyone need? It is not going above 30Mp for MFT in this decade(unless some new sensor manufacturing process comes up).

the 'obsession with megapixels' is not sudden and has been a thing with digital photography for years now. likely wont change soon. i am the proud owner of a sony a7r4 and in crop mode is a very useful apc sensor camera with 'extra reach' very useful when using the 100-400 sony gm.

 

[kamerakiri]

This thread has lot of niggling over spec sheet.

Spec sheet in case of Olympus cameras hardly tell the complete, or even half the story. Unlike, say, Canon where spec sheet tells exactly how the camera should perform, since Olympus is known for a comprehensive variety of special modes and software features - it is difficult to understand how the new camera behaves with the revamped imaging pipeline.

As far as WOW features, Astro Follow is a big one. The module needed for this requires a high precision GPS, a compass and an accelerometer. All cameras have temperature sensor(albeit not for ambient environment). The spec sheet does not mention field sensors - I'll assume that only GPS module exists. Let us see how they implement it in software. Pentax is the only one with this feature - and they have some limitations of focal length and exposure duration. We'll see how good this feature is.

I'd love GIS(Geo Informatics System) within camera software - where camera can plot datasets on map. That makes such a camera a great tool for scientific trips and field survey. Or the converse - the ability to read a GIS file, such as elevation and GPS data on a downloaded map, and direct me to locations from this map. I know that Japanese camera manufacturers don't think in this direction - but it can be a good software distribution model where camera can have apps suited for different kinds of scientific/casual users that we can buy as an add on.

AI auto focus and tracking is a big WOW already - since otherwise one needs to spend over $5000 for this feature.

A new battery - that's pleasant. Likely more durable and able to last entire day.

Every single piece of hardware seems to have been upgraded. If OMDS has completely revamped internal hardware, I expect a substantial overhaul in software has well. I'll reserve further comments until I get to see how they utilise all these improvements in software.

I think it would be good that some realistic expectations are drawn for this camera. Here's what It think would be reasonable for this camera to do/have, that seems doable. And to be clear: this is just a thought, it could be spot on or off in some areas, but what I expect.

• ~$2249 MSRP USD
• EM1MKIII class body but with some layout enhancements from EM1X
• Astro Tracking probably happening

• 20 MP sensor
• New AI AF modes (all the ones from EM1X but finally we get People/Pets)
• Slightly improved HHHR - making the process faster = avoid movement/light changes in scenes more often
• Probably some degree of automatic movement removal in HHHR shots

• Def. improved video quality (bit rate/pro raws support- or whatever the name is- maybe, etc.)
• Live ND from EM1X, but maybe one more stop of filtering sim.
• IBIS - maybe 0.5 stops better than EM1MKIII

• EVF without blackout (at least in some fps modes) in continuous shooting
• 1/3rd to 1/2 of a stop DR/ISO improvement over EM1MKIII (probably 1/3rd)
• Maybe bracketed HDR mode with 14-bit RAW capture, but not 14-bit raw generally speaking

• Maybe improved tripod high res reaching to 100 MP of details through more precise sensor shift mechanism
• Increased resolution EVF, while keeping refresh at 120fps
• Maybe- some way to connect camera directly to internet and upload/transfer shots

• Fully articulated LCD (unfortunately )
• Definitively improved AF in general over EM1MKIII/EM1X
• Dual UHS-II or III card slots (probably II)

• Ability to do Panoramas. Better than what we see on OM10/EP7
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with full AF over EM1.3/EM1X
• Faster continuous shooting/length of continuous shooting with locked AF/Exposure rover EM1.3/EM1X

• Maybe improved LCD resolution
• New UI enhancements particularly where it concerns touch screen.

What I don't expect:

• New miracle sensor designed by OM Digital Solutions / Olympus. And definitively not multi layer like Foveon. Those of you from the 4/3rds era maybe remember the "Trine/Thrine" sensor that never happened
• 14-bit RAW
• Better tones/DR/ISO than best ASPC/FF cameras on general shooting (i.e. not using special modes)

• Priced less than $2,000 USD MSRP
• A major IBIS breakthrough like 1.5 or more stops of improvement over EM1.3

Since they can track stars now, I don't think any more improvement is possible or should be expected. It might be possible to break long exposure into several sequential short exposures and then add them together. Present IBIS already gives good results, for handheld exposures that are 10 seconds or so(as I've gathered from EM 1 Mark III reviews).

• Improved LCD resolution (though maybe it can but doubt it)

I basically expect it to be an "EM1MKIV" - a pretty solid MFT cameras for those who are doing pro work earning cash. Everyone going to jump here remember the current camera you adore so much keeps working the same - do you really need any of this for your photography?

Speaking for myself: to me this is about showing new tech and make it trickle down fast to other models. I don't see myself buying this camera due to size and that I have what I need right now. An EM5.4 that could do the same level of HHHR I expect this one to do could be wonderful.

I hope OM Digital Solutions realizes that spreading the new sensor/cpu speed/key image quality through the whole line is better for them. Distinguish by continuous drive buffer, build quality, more sub-options for some of the features vs the lower end. Overall speed/battery life.

Thoughts?

What is the one feature you expect this camera will bring and which key things you don't expect to have (whether you would like it to or not).

 

[Messier Object]

I expect it to be called "OM-1"

This in itself will (in the eyes of the OMDS Marketing Dept) constitute the majority of the "wow"-ness.

The rest will be new EVF, LCD and tweaked features and maybe some new ones which will be argued over by tech heads and forum pundits but it will ultimately make no more of a dent in the market place than the E-M1X did.

The opening price will be high just as the E-M1X was and will fall gradually over 2022-23.

Early adopters will rush to buy it but by the end of the year smart buyers will choose the E-M1 III as it will be 90% as capable for 60% of the price.

Peter

on further thought . . .

I think the new camera might have been better designated as "OM-5" as there have already been OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 models.
It may then be argued that the new 2022 model is an extension or continuation of the original OM System and the re-use of the "OM System" brand would make more sense and would seem less like OMDS was 'stealing' the name from Maitani's original system idea

The real OM System

I wonder what Mr Maitani would think

Peter