Raw files editing, tips and tricks?

[Mark_A]

Right click on the module Basecurve and choose Nikon (there are two). Set preserve color to None. Those curves have been generated for older Nikon camera

Hi Kameratrollet,

Can you tell me what basecurve adjusts, is it the rgb histogram, exposure or something, it does seem to be a useful adjustment - would just like to know what it is doing?

Mark_A

 

[Kameratrollet]

Right click on the module Basecurve and choose Nikon (there are two). Set preserve color to None. Those curves have been generated for older Nikon camera

Hi Kameratrollet,

Can you tell me what basecurve adjusts, is it the rgb histogram, exposure or something, it does seem to be a useful adjustment - would just like to know what it is doing?

Mark_A

Best explanation I have

http://web.archive.org/web/20160827125721/http://www.freethatphoto.com/advanced-editing-darktable-tone-curves/

Editing photos with the darktable base curve - Free That Photo

Curves are incredibly powerful photograph editing tool. They allow you to adjust the intensity and tonal values of the image with a few clicks, recover shadows and highlights, and boost saturation and contrast. However, they are also more complicated than … Continued

web.archive.org

Since then the basecurve module has been moved from early in the pixel pipe to the end of the pixel pipe.

 

[Mark_A]

Hi Kameratrollet,

Can you tell me what basecurve adjusts, is it the rgb histogram, exposure or something, it does seem to be a useful adjustment - would just like to know what it is doing?

Best explanation I have

http://web.archive.org/web/20160827...o.com/advanced-editing-darktable-tone-curves/

http://web.archive.org/web/20160517113752/http://www.freethatphoto.com/darktable-base-curve-editing/

Since then the basecurve module has been moved from early in the pixel pipe to the end of the pixel pipe.

Hi Kameratrollet, very helpful links, thank you .. interesting reading.

And very pleased that there is a Nikon D800 curve precisely for me!!

Mark_A

 

[ddharriman]

Hi (again)

Relating to my last post part about the flatness look of the raw files in Darktable:

You seeing the raw fie "flat" when opening it on Darktable is perfectly normal. It's up to you to edit it to your liking.

Good, it did worry me at first.

Here you have the explanation why it is so from the online user manual:
https://docs.darktable.org/usermanu.../#why-doesnt-the-raw-image-look-like-the-jpeg

Best regards,

 

[Mark_A]

Hi (again)

Relating to my last post part about the flatness look of the raw files in Darktable:

You seeing the raw fie "flat" when opening it on Darktable is perfectly normal. It's up to you to edit it to your liking.

Good, it did worry me at first.

Here you have the explanation why it is so from the online user manual:
https://docs.darktable.org/usermanu.../#why-doesnt-the-raw-image-look-like-the-jpeg

HI ddharriman,

thanks for that. I have been reading the manual online but hadn't seen that bit yet.

It seems there is a Nikon D800 base curve that I can apply which immediately gives me a jpeg like result which is quite pleasing to my eye. I expect longer term I might want to develop my own curves and style but at the moment it is encouraging.

Mark_A

Some green with the base curve

 

[sciencenerd]

I have used Darktable quite a bit, but now have also a Lr subscription from work, so I go back and forth between them. For Darktable, my workflow is the follwing (after importing the dng from DxO pureraw, so lens correction and noise reduction already taken care of):

1) Auto apply on import: Sigmoid (for display mapping), exposure on auto, rgb color balance with "basic colorfulness - vibrant colors" preset, tone equalizer with "compress highlights/shadows - soft" preset, local contrast with "clarity" preset.

2) Color calibration for whitebalance

3) crop/straighten (I have mapped the rotate function to "r" + the mouse wheel)

This already gives a very good starting point. To fine tune, I use:

4) Adjust shadows/highlight with rgb color balance perceptual brilliance silders (this is confusing, this really means the brightness).

5) Adjust contrast and/or vibrance in rgb color balance

6) If the image is very high dynamic range, use "compress highlights/shadows - medium or strong" in tone euqalizer.

7) If the image is still too flat, you can add some "clarity" preset from contrast equalizer.

8) Once you are happy with edits, save as your own style, and copy and paste to other images, this makes batch editing very quick.

Finally, the keyboard shortcuts in Darktable are VERY powerful. I have keys plus mouse wheel assigned to all basic functions, like exposure, rotate, shadows/highlights, contrast, vibrance in rgb color balance. This makes editing extremely efficient without having to touch the sliders with the mouse pointer or jumping back and forth between module tabs.

Yes, Darktable is VERY difficult for beginners, but once you get the hang of it, it is very powerful and customizable. Masking is also very good, although not AI (there is no subject selection). However, the parametric masks (for example brightness mask) are better than Lr, because you can feather the edges.

 

[Mark_A]

I have used Darktable quite a bit, but now have also a Lr subscription from work, so I go back and forth between them. For Darktable, my workflow is the follwing (after importing the dng from DxO pureraw, so lens correction and noise reduction already taken care of):

1) Auto apply on import: Sigmoid (for display mapping), exposure on auto, rgb color balance with "basic colorfulness - vibrant colors" preset, tone equalizer with "compress highlights/shadows - soft" preset, local contrast with "clarity" preset.

2) Color calibration for whitebalance

3) crop/straighten (I have mapped the rotate function to "r" + the mouse wheel)

This already gives a very good starting point. To fine tune, I use:

4) Adjust shadows/highlight with rgb color balance perceptual brilliance silders (this is confusing, this really means the brightness).

5) Adjust contrast and/or vibrance in rgb color balance

6) If the image is very high dynamic range, use "compress highlights/shadows - medium or strong" in tone euqalizer.

7) If the image is still too flat, you can add some "clarity" preset from contrast equalizer.

8) Once you are happy with edits, save as your own style, and copy and paste to other images, this makes batch editing very quick.

Finally, the keyboard shortcuts in Darktable are VERY powerful. I have keys plus mouse wheel assigned to all basic functions, like exposure, rotate, shadows/highlights, contrast, vibrance in rgb color balance. This makes editing extremely efficient without having to touch the sliders with the mouse pointer or jumping back and forth between module tabs.

Yes, Darktable is VERY difficult for beginners, but once you get the hang of it, it is very powerful and customizable. Masking is also very good, although not AI (there is no subject selection). However, the parametric masks (for example brightness mask) are better than Lr, because you can feather the edges.

Hi sciencenerd,

Many thanks for your post, I will have a play with the modules you mention, could be good homework for me! I might post further questions for you here.

I am a beginner to darktable and also to raw editing, having had a jpeg workflow for the last 25 years, however so far I am finding my way, with a lot of generous help like yours above.

Hope you are having a good weekend.

Mark_A

 

[Donatzsky]

So it is in the exposure thingy, I boosted exposure quite a bit and then the blacks were washed out a bit so I added a bit of black level correction to bring the contrast back.

Don't do that. As the tooltip will tell you, it's for fixing things if you get negative values (although not sure how that might happen). By the way, almost all controls have tooltips that will tell you something useful.

 

[Barleyman]

Hi Mark,

I don't use darktable, but I believe you are describing what is cooked out of camera in a JPEG, vs a RAW file. It's likely you are seeing a flat Raw file which looks dull compared to a standard JPEG.

The Raw File is just that, uncooked. However, depending on your settings in camera, your Nikon D800 may apply "edits" like Standard, Vivid, or Picture Controls, etc. So the JPEG already has a set of adjustments applied in camera. When I first started out, loved Vivid...

When I import my raw files into my raw processor, I tell it to apply the in camera settings to the file, so I end up a bit ahead of editing a pure raw file. Not sure if Darktable can do that.

In addition, Darktable "may" be able to apply a pre-set to the file on import, or via a selection. Again, trying to get started with some automation.

So yes, Raw and JPEG workflows are very similar, the starting point can differ. Also, with JPEG you'll have less latitude in edits, as there is not as much information contained in the JPEG, as you will find in RAW.

 

[Mark_A]

So it is in the exposure thingy, I boosted exposure quite a bit and then the blacks were washed out a bit so I added a bit of black level correction to bring the contrast back.

Don't do that. As the tooltip will tell you, it's for fixing things if you get negative values (although not sure how that might happen). By the way, almost all controls have tooltips that will tell you something useful.

Hi Donatzsky,

I could have found a contrast adjustment, but the black level correction seemed to do the trick!!

However I am now applying a Nikon D800 base curve which seems to boost brightness while conserving blacks. Not 100% about the greens now though.

Mark_A

 

[Mark_A]

Hi Mark,

I don't use darktable, but I believe you are describing what is cooked out of camera in a JPEG, vs a RAW file. It's likely you are seeing a flat Raw file which looks dull compared to a standard JPEG.

Hi Barleyman, yes I understand more about what raws are now.

The Raw File is just that, uncooked.

Indeed

However, depending on your settings in camera, your Nikon D800 may apply "edits" like Standard, Vivid, or Picture Controls, etc. So the JPEG already has a set of adjustments applied in camera. When I first started out, loved Vivid...

So someone advised me to look at the darktable base curve and I found that it has a base curve called D800 which happens to be my camera. Well it works quite well, not perfect, I could still perhaps do to boost saturation a little but as a step it seems quite positive.

When I import my raw files into my raw processor, I tell it to apply the in camera settings to the file, so I end up a bit ahead of editing a pure raw file. Not sure if Darktable can do that.

I think that might be what I am doing with that dedicated my camera base curve.

In addition, Darktable "may" be able to apply a pre-set to the file on import, or via a selection. Again, trying to get started with some automation.

So yes, Raw and JPEG workflows are very similar, the starting point can differ. Also, with JPEG you'll have less latitude in edits, as there is not as much information contained in the JPEG, as you will find in RAW.

I think the main learning I have from all those years when I shot jpeg is that normally my photos are well exposed. There was less latitude shooting jpeg so I got better at exposing my pictures, rather than lose them.

Mark_A

 

[Mark_A]

I like that I can walk through the action history and insert a new action if I wish.

Got to re-read this thread, so many recommendations to check out.

Am liking darktable though, at least now I have a workflow that produces ok results, that makes me happy. More to learn though I am sure.

Mark_A

 

[maltmoose]

Hi Mark,

I don't use darktable, but I believe you are describing what is cooked out of camera in a JPEG, vs a RAW file. It's likely you are seeing a flat Raw file which looks dull compared to a standard JPEG.

The Raw File is just that, uncooked. However, depending on your settings in camera, your Nikon D800 may apply "edits" like Standard, Vivid, or Picture Controls, etc. So the JPEG already has a set of adjustments applied in camera. When I first started out, loved Vivid...

When I import my raw files into my raw processor, I tell it to apply the in camera settings to the file, so I end up a bit ahead of editing a pure raw file. Not sure if Darktable can do that.

In addition, Darktable "may" be able to apply a pre-set to the file on import, or via a selection. Again, trying to get started with some automation.

For the Op. Almost all the tools in darktable can be auto applied on import. Then can be autoset using various criteria like apply only a specific setting to a make or model of a camera.

I use auto presets for most things so when i import my images they look like the jpegs to start with.

Everything you see here is auto applied on image import apart from those that are correct by default.

auto applied

You can auto apply presets and configure them here by editing a preset.

this applies a specific demosacing to any raw above iso 1600 automatically.

Auto presets are very powerful and a huge time saver once setup.

I have different settings for high and low iso images for instance.

So yes, Raw and JPEG workflows are very similar, the starting point can differ. Also, with JPEG you'll have less latitude in edits, as there is not as much information contained in the JPEG, as you will find in RAW.

 

[Mark_A]

For the Op. Almost all the tools in darktable can be auto applied on import. Then can be autoset using various criteria like apply only a specific setting to a make or model of a camera.

I use auto presets for most things so when i import my images they look like the jpegs to start with.

Everything you see here is auto applied on image import apart from those that are correct by default.

Hi maltmoose, interesting stuff. Some things like "sigmoid" I just have no idea what it is or what it does..

At the moment I have 11 items auto applied, might be the standard for the program. Interesting that I can add more, I will experiment.

auto applied

You can auto apply presets and configure them here by editing a preset.

this applies a specific demosacing to any raw above iso 1600 automatically.

Auto presets are very powerful and a huge time saver once setup.

I have different settings for high and low iso images for instance.

At the moment I can't see myself using more than about 14

Mark_A

 

[bastibe]

So a question to you all, whatever software you use, what steps do you usually take to get your raw files into a state you are comfortable with?

I use darktable as well. My workflow has gone through a number of revisions over the years, currently it generally goes like this:

1. Auto-applied Sigmoid, scene-referred workflow
2. One of several tone-curve/color lookup table presets, as a starting point
3. Exposure adjustment for overall brightness
4. Tonal shadows/highlights adjustments in color balancing RGB, also color grading and saturation adjustments
5. In HDR scenes, tone equalizer to balance highlights and shadows
6. Automatic sharpening in an export preset

I do this in a customized darktable, with several tweaks to the way I like to work: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/my-darktable-customization/45664/1

Over time, I've spent several years with Lightroom and Capture One, each. They're good programs, too. But I've always come back to darktable. The flexibility and raw power of darktable is simply unmatched. From that experience with other programs, I have learned that you can rest assured that the quality of the end result is always predicated on user skill, not the tools they use.

 

[Mark_A]

I use darktable as well. My workflow has gone through a number of revisions over the years, currently it generally goes like this:

1. Auto-applied Sigmoid, scene-referred workflow
2. One of several tone-curve/color lookup table presets, as a starting point
3. Exposure adjustment for overall brightness
4. Tonal shadows/highlights adjustments in color balancing RGB, also color grading and saturation adjustments
5. In HDR scenes, tone equalizer to balance highlights and shadows
6. Automatic sharpening in an export preset

Hi bastibe, and thanks for your post, I have a feeling my workflow will change as I go forward as well. At the moment it is fairly basic - the first ways I have managed to make an acceptable output - I am sure I will find better ways of doing things.

I do this in a customized darktable, with several tweaks to the way I like to work: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/my-darktable-customization/45664/1

I will go take a look ..

Over time, I've spent several years with Lightroom and Capture One, each. They're good programs, too. But I've always come back to darktable. The flexibility and raw power of darktable is simply unmatched. From that experience with other programs, I have learned that you can rest assured that the quality of the end result is always predicated on user skill, not the tools they use.

darktable is the first raw editor I have used, hopefully I can do what I need in it. But I started the thread on the basis that raw editing should be able to be discussed as a topic on its own and I think you would broadly agree with that.

Mark_A

 

[Digital Nigel]

I use darktable as well. My workflow has gone through a number of revisions over the years, currently it generally goes like this:

1. Auto-applied Sigmoid, scene-referred workflow
2. One of several tone-curve/color lookup table presets, as a starting point
3. Exposure adjustment for overall brightness
4. Tonal shadows/highlights adjustments in color balancing RGB, also color grading and saturation adjustments
5. In HDR scenes, tone equalizer to balance highlights and shadows
6. Automatic sharpening in an export preset

Hi bastibe, and thanks for your post, I have a feeling my workflow will change as I go forward as well. At the moment it is fairly basic - the first ways I have managed to make an acceptable output - I am sure I will find better ways of doing things.

I do this in a customized darktable, with several tweaks to the way I like to work: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/my-darktable-customization/45664/1

I will go take a look ..

Over time, I've spent several years with Lightroom and Capture One, each. They're good programs, too. But I've always come back to darktable. The flexibility and raw power of darktable is simply unmatched. From that experience with other programs, I have learned that you can rest assured that the quality of the end result is always predicated on user skill, not the tools they use.

darktable is the first raw editor I have used, hopefully I can do what I need in it. But I started the thread on the basis that raw editing should be able to be discussed as a topic on its own and I think you would broadly agree with that.

I’m afraid I wouldn’t. This thread has become productive now that it’s focused exclusively on DT. It wouldn’t be if it had stayed as a general discussion of raw editing.

The tips and tricks you’re learning are of zero relevance to me as a DxO PhotoLab user. And if we have a thread about tips and tricks with PhotoLab, it would have zero relevance to a DT user.

It seems that DT is a very complicated, difficult but powerful tool. The reasons for using it seem to be to master its intellectual challenges, or to prove that free, open source software can compete with commercial products. But if you just want to develop and edit raw images easily and quickly, to the highest quality, the commercial products are far stronger. I’m happy to pay for those advantages.

But, again, each is different. As a PhotoLab user, I wouldn’t get much from a thread about making the most of Lightroom or C1, or vice versa.

 

[ggbutcher]

I use darktable as well. My workflow has gone through a number of revisions over the years, currently it generally goes like this:

1. Auto-applied Sigmoid, scene-referred workflow
2. One of several tone-curve/color lookup table presets, as a starting point
3. Exposure adjustment for overall brightness
4. Tonal shadows/highlights adjustments in color balancing RGB, also color grading and saturation adjustments
5. In HDR scenes, tone equalizer to balance highlights and shadows
6. Automatic sharpening in an export preset

Hi bastibe, and thanks for your post, I have a feeling my workflow will change as I go forward as well. At the moment it is fairly basic - the first ways I have managed to make an acceptable output - I am sure I will find better ways of doing things.

I do this in a customized darktable, with several tweaks to the way I like to work: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/my-darktable-customization/45664/1

I will go take a look ..

Over time, I've spent several years with Lightroom and Capture One, each. They're good programs, too. But I've always come back to darktable. The flexibility and raw power of darktable is simply unmatched. From that experience with other programs, I have learned that you can rest assured that the quality of the end result is always predicated on user skill, not the tools they use.

darktable is the first raw editor I have used, hopefully I can do what I need in it. But I started the thread on the basis that raw editing should be able to be discussed as a topic on its own and I think you would broadly agree with that.

I’m afraid I wouldn’t. This thread has become productive now that it’s focused exclusively on DT. It wouldn’t be if it had stayed as a general discussion of raw editing.

The tips and tricks you’re learning are of zero relevance to me as a DxO PhotoLab user. And if we have a thread about tips and tricks with PhotoLab, it would have zero relevance to a DT user.

It seems that DT is a very complicated, difficult but powerful tool. The reasons for using it seem to be to master its intellectual challenges, or to prove that free, open source software can compete with commercial products. But if you just want to develop and edit raw images easily and quickly, to the highest quality, the commercial products are far stronger. I’m happy to pay for those advantages.

But, again, each is different. As a PhotoLab user, I wouldn’t get much from a thread about making the most of Lightroom or C1, or vice versa.

I don't use darktable, but a compelling reason to use it is that it can guarantee a scene-referred workflow; you can actually inspect the order of operations to confirm that. I don't think you can confirm that with any of the commercial softwares.

I just skimmed the thread, may already have been defined, but 'scene-referred' means the all the operations to color are done before the tone curve lifts the image data from the original linear magnitudes of the capture.

 

[Digital Nigel]

I use darktable as well. My workflow has gone through a number of revisions over the years, currently it generally goes like this:

1. Auto-applied Sigmoid, scene-referred workflow
2. One of several tone-curve/color lookup table presets, as a starting point
3. Exposure adjustment for overall brightness
4. Tonal shadows/highlights adjustments in color balancing RGB, also color grading and saturation adjustments
5. In HDR scenes, tone equalizer to balance highlights and shadows
6. Automatic sharpening in an export preset

Hi bastibe, and thanks for your post, I have a feeling my workflow will change as I go forward as well. At the moment it is fairly basic - the first ways I have managed to make an acceptable output - I am sure I will find better ways of doing things.

I do this in a customized darktable, with several tweaks to the way I like to work: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/my-darktable-customization/45664/1

I will go take a look ..

Over time, I've spent several years with Lightroom and Capture One, each. They're good programs, too. But I've always come back to darktable. The flexibility and raw power of darktable is simply unmatched. From that experience with other programs, I have learned that you can rest assured that the quality of the end result is always predicated on user skill, not the tools they use.

darktable is the first raw editor I have used, hopefully I can do what I need in it. But I started the thread on the basis that raw editing should be able to be discussed as a topic on its own and I think you would broadly agree with that.

I’m afraid I wouldn’t. This thread has become productive now that it’s focused exclusively on DT. It wouldn’t be if it had stayed as a general discussion of raw editing.

The tips and tricks you’re learning are of zero relevance to me as a DxO PhotoLab user. And if we have a thread about tips and tricks with PhotoLab, it would have zero relevance to a DT user.

It seems that DT is a very complicated, difficult but powerful tool. The reasons for using it seem to be to master its intellectual challenges, or to prove that free, open source software can compete with commercial products. But if you just want to develop and edit raw images easily and quickly, to the highest quality, the commercial products are far stronger. I’m happy to pay for those advantages.

But, again, each is different. As a PhotoLab user, I wouldn’t get much from a thread about making the most of Lightroom or C1, or vice versa.

I don't use darktable, but a compelling reason to use it is that it can guarantee a scene-referred workflow; you can actually inspect the order of operations to confirm that. I don't think you can confirm that with any of the commercial softwares.

I have no idea if any commercial software can do this, nor why it would be useful?

I just skimmed the thread, may already have been defined, but 'scene-referred' means the all the operations to color are done before the tone curve lifts the image data from the original linear magnitudes of the capture.

Why is this needed?

 

[bastibe]

I don't use darktable, but a compelling reason to use it is that it can guarantee a scene-referred workflow; you can actually inspect the order of operations to confirm that. I don't think you can confirm that with any of the commercial softwares.

I have no idea if any commercial software can do this, nor why it would be useful?

I just skimmed the thread, may already have been defined, but 'scene-referred' means the all the operations to color are done before the tone curve lifts the image data from the original linear magnitudes of the capture.

Why is this needed?

It means that you do not need to worry about over-exposing until the very last step.

In Lightroom (and others), only three sliders can retrieve color from white: Exposure, Highlights, Whites. Any other slider, such as the tone curve or levels, or clarity, or contrast, can turn white to grey, but the color is lost.

Not so in darktable (or video editors, or video game color grading, which all use scene-referred editing pipelines). Over there, any old slider can modify brightness in any old way without losing data.

This has consequences: since only those three sliders can rescue highlights color, that's what you must use them for. This often means you have to do counter-intuitive things, like lower highlights until the color looks right, but that darkened your midtones, so now you must raise shadows to compensate. But now you've got a flat image, and must compensate that with contrast. As another example, the Exposure slider almost always needs compensation with highlights and is pretty useless on its own. You get used to this, and it works well, but it is a strange dance if you step back and think about it.

Once you get used to the way darktable works, this kind of inter-dependent editing logic looks silly and inefficient. Darktable uses exposure to expose, without needing to worry about your highlights.

Another aspect is that scene-referred color does not conflate contrast with saturation. In Lightroom, the contrast slider and the tone curve also add saturation. That's a consequence of color information being lost in highlights and shadows, which makes tonal and color adjustments interlinked. Of course everything is built with this in mind and compensates accordingly, and you get used to it.

But in darktable you just don't need to think about it. Contrast changes contrast, not saturation. Tonal adjustments leave color alone. Again, once you get used to this kind of editing, it makes things simpler, and the alternative starts looking silly.

I've used Lightroom and Capture One for several years. But at the end of the day, I prefer editing in darktable. Since operations are more independent, I find them easier to reason about. And I just like this analytical mode of editing.

However, let me very clearly state that this is purely a matter of preference. When I look back at my photos, I can't tell whether they were edited with Lightroom or Capture One or Darktable. They all do their job, so long as you're proficient with them. Your own skill is much more important than the tools you use.