R5 mk2... flash falling off and battery errors in the cold

[hiki08]

Hello all,

A couple of months after making the jump to EOS R from the 5Dmk4 and i've so far had 2 main issues bugging me. I've been in contact with the local Canon store (very thankful there is one here, in Hong Kong) but they're not really solving it, so I wanted to hear some thoughts.

(1) perhaps the biggest issue I have is that my SPeedlite 430EX II which I have been using without issue for the last 12 years (6D then 5D mk4) fell off my R5 Mk2 on no less than 3 or 5 occasions during a 2 week trip back in November. Each time I collected it from the ground, I noticed the swivel lock was in the 'locked' position. In other words, the flash had fallen off while locked. As I obviously do not want to become sans-flash mid-trip, while I cannot confirm for the first instance, I am certain I had pushed it in all the way and it had locked properly on the hotshoe in the instances after. I do give it a good shake and tug after putting it on each time (yet it had still fallen off a few times after, after a while of use). On the same trip I had my 5D mk4 with me and it did not suffer from the same issue.

I told the Canon technician that there can only be 2 causes based on the facts... (1) the 430EX II base is not compatible with the R5 Mk2 hotshoe; or (2) the R5 Mk2 hotshoe has issues (perhaps the specific one on my camera). For (1), they've confirmed it's meant to be compatible even though there has been updates to the Canon hotshoe. And so I can only imagine it to be (2). Yet they are so far refusing to try and replace my R5 mk2 hotshoe to see if the problem goes away - saying they are not able to shake the flash off in their workshop and therefore cannot expense it to warranty.

The excuse is obviously ridiculous since I've already told him that it appeared properly locked each time, yet it's still fallen off on numerous occasions. If it happens much more, I have a serious concern that my trusty old flash will become permanently damaged.

Am I missing something here? Any thoughts or similar experiences?

(2) Together with the battery in the box, I've gotten 3 of the new LP-E6P batteries. In the November trip, there was one occasion where I alighted from my car and walked maybe 30-45min with 2 fully charged batteries in my backpack at 0C (32F). When I tried to swap them into the camera, there was an error on the screen on both occasions (essentially saying they were flat). Returning to warmer environment, they booted up the camera just fine. I've never had similar issues with the 5D mk4. Colder weather does make batteries hold less charge, but to make them 'appear' completely flat? Seems like it's a common issue as I see from a google search (see: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878681/6/).

The Canon technician said maybe it's because the newer R cameras need a lot of oomph to start them up, unlike the older DSLRs and hence the issue. Explanation seems vaguely plausible but still quite unsatisfactory for a semi-pro level camera operating at not that cold weather. Yes I could've kept the batteries warmer in my jacket but it did not appear all that cold and it was only a short walk away from the car.

Camera was running original firmware 1.0, but will try again with updated firmware 1.0.2 in my upcoming trip. Maybe i'll intentionally leave a fully charged battery in my backpack to see how it goes. If anyone else has had any similar experiences, would be great to hear.

Cheers!

 

[Ephemeris]

Hello all,

Hi Hiki

A couple of months after making the jump to EOS R from the 5Dmk4 and i've so far had 2 main issues bugging me. I've been in contact with the local Canon store (very thankful there is one here, in Hong Kong) but they're not really solving it, so I wanted to hear some thoughts.

(1) perhaps the biggest issue I have is that my SPeedlite 430EX II which I have been using without issue for the last 12 years (6D then 5D mk4) fell off my R5 Mk2 on no less than 3 or 5 occasions during a 2 week trip back in November. Each time I collected it from the ground, I noticed the swivel lock was in the 'locked' position. In other words, the flash had fallen off while locked. As I obviously do not want to become sans-flash mid-trip, while I cannot confirm for the first instance, I am certain I had pushed it in all the way and it had locked properly on the hotshoe in the instances after. I do give it a good shake and tug after putting it on each time (yet it had still fallen off a few times after, after a while of use). On the same trip I had my 5D mk4 with me and it did not suffer from the same issue.

I have a Godox that I brought over from the r5 but doesn't seem to be a problem. Certainly hasn't fallen off. I wonder if the Canon AD-E1 Multi-function Shoe Adapter may help.

(It's a v860 Mkii-C)

When my flash is on the shoe it's tight and rigid, perhaps you can spot some problem?

I told the Canon technician that there can only be 2 causes based on the facts... (1) the 430EX II base is not compatible with the R5 Mk2 hotshoe; or (2) the R5 Mk2 hotshoe has issues (perhaps the specific one on my camera). For (1), they've confirmed it's meant to be compatible even though there has been updates to the Canon hotshoe. And so I can only imagine it to be (2). Yet they are so far refusing to try and replace my R5 mk2 hotshoe to see if the problem goes away - saying they are not able to shake the flash off in their workshop and therefore cannot expense it to warranty.

The excuse is obviously ridiculous since I've already told him that it appeared properly locked each time, yet it's still fallen off on numerous occasions. If it happens much more, I have a serious concern that my trusty old flash will become permanently damaged.

Am I missing something here? Any thoughts or similar experiences?

(2) Together with the battery in the box, I've gotten 3 of the new LP-E6P batteries. In the November trip, there was one occasion where I alighted from my car and walked maybe 30-45min with 2 fully charged batteries in my backpack at 0C (32F). When I tried to swap them into the camera, there was an error on the screen on both occasions (essentially saying they were flat). Returning to warmer environment, they booted up the camera just fine. I've never had similar issues with the 5D mk4. Colder weather does make batteries hold less charge, but to make them 'appear' completely flat? Seems like it's a common issue as I see from a google search (see: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878681/6/).

I haven't read the whole thread just the last couple of pages. Much of that sounds like peoples noise and little real data or evidence. It is true that temperature affects the cells, after all chemistry is a significant part of the way in which they work. I haven't yet characterised the E6P but the job is on the todo list.

The below is measured from cells within the E6NH. Manufacture state a -10C operating condition and the data below would support that although it should operate when colder.

The E6P uses different cells so will not be identical to the below.

We had a very cold spell in the UK where we had a prolonged sub 10C condition at night and -5C and below during the day.

I did some shooting of snow dogs with my r52 which has a grip fitted without issue.

The camera as it demands power creates heat (see lowest plot on the graph). Understanding what temperature your batteries actually were at but as they came from your car could we assume the car was warm?

When I do winter car testing in Sweden where we are hoping for -30c to -20c then I place many batteries and measurements tools inside an insulted Pelican case. Within that case we add some heat from something like a drinks flask (Dewar flask) where the loss from the flask is enough to heat the case.

If you could provide more information regarding your anticipated temperature of the batteries and secondly the camera that would help.

The Canon technician said maybe it's because the newer R cameras need a lot of oomph to start them up, unlike the older DSLRs and hence the issue. Explanation seems vaguely plausible but still quite unsatisfactory for a semi-pro level camera operating at not that cold weather. Yes I could've kept the batteries warmer in my jacket but it did not appear all that cold and it was only a short walk away from the car.

Camera was running original firmware 1.0, but will try again with updated firmware 1.0.2 in my upcoming trip. Maybe i'll intentionally leave a fully charged battery in my backpack to see how it goes. If anyone else has had any similar experiences, would be great to hear.

Cheers!

 

[R2D2]

Hello all,

A couple of months after making the jump to EOS R from the 5Dmk4 and i've so far had 2 main issues bugging me. I've been in contact with the local Canon store (very thankful there is one here, in Hong Kong) but they're not really solving it, so I wanted to hear some thoughts.

(1) perhaps the biggest issue I have is that my SPeedlite 430EX II which I have been using without issue for the last 12 years (6D then 5D mk4) fell off my R5 Mk2 on no less than 3 or 5 occasions during a 2 week trip back in November. Each time I collected it from the ground, I noticed the swivel lock was in the 'locked' position. In other words, the flash had fallen off while locked. As I obviously do not want to become sans-flash mid-trip, while I cannot confirm for the first instance, I am certain I had pushed it in all the way and it had locked properly on the hotshoe in the instances after. I do give it a good shake and tug after putting it on each time (yet it had still fallen off a few times after, after a while of use). On the same trip I had my 5D mk4 with me and it did not suffer from the same issue.

I told the Canon technician that there can only be 2 causes based on the facts... (1) the 430EX II base is not compatible with the R5 Mk2 hotshoe; or (2) the R5 Mk2 hotshoe has issues (perhaps the specific one on my camera). For (1), they've confirmed it's meant to be compatible even though there has been updates to the Canon hotshoe. And so I can only imagine it to be (2). Yet they are so far refusing to try and replace my R5 mk2 hotshoe to see if the problem goes away - saying they are not able to shake the flash off in their workshop and therefore cannot expense it to warranty.

The excuse is obviously ridiculous since I've already told him that it appeared properly locked each time, yet it's still fallen off on numerous occasions. If it happens much more, I have a serious concern that my trusty old flash will become permanently damaged.

Am I missing something here? Any thoughts or similar experiences?

No issues here. I would think that it's more likely that the lock on your flash is defective. Have you ruled that out?

(2) Together with the battery in the box, I've gotten 3 of the new LP-E6P batteries. In the November trip, there was one occasion where I alighted from my car and walked maybe 30-45min with 2 fully charged batteries in my backpack at 0C (32F). When I tried to swap them into the camera, there was an error on the screen on both occasions (essentially saying they were flat). Returning to warmer environment, they booted up the camera just fine. I've never had similar issues with the 5D mk4. Colder weather does make batteries hold less charge, but to make them 'appear' completely flat? Seems like it's a common issue as I see from a google search (see: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878681/6/).

The Canon technician said maybe it's because the newer R cameras need a lot of oomph to start them up, unlike the older DSLRs and hence the issue. Explanation seems vaguely plausible but still quite unsatisfactory for a semi-pro level camera operating at not that cold weather. Yes I could've kept the batteries warmer in my jacket but it did not appear all that cold and it was only a short walk away from the car.

Camera was running original firmware 1.0, but will try again with updated firmware 1.0.2 in my upcoming trip. Maybe i'll intentionally leave a fully charged battery in my backpack to see how it goes. If anyone else has had any similar experiences, would be great to hear.

Cheers!

That issue was posted here a couple of months ago. It certainly looks like it's valid to me.

I haven't had my R5ii out in temps below 0 degrees C yet, but will be taking a trip to a very cold location in a couple of weeks (-30c in the mornings). I'll be taking precautions just in case (hand warmers and gaffer's tape).

Is your camera at the latest firmware?

R2

 

[Alastair Norcross]

Hello all,

A couple of months after making the jump to EOS R from the 5Dmk4 and i've so far had 2 main issues bugging me. I've been in contact with the local Canon store (very thankful there is one here, in Hong Kong) but they're not really solving it, so I wanted to hear some thoughts.

(1) perhaps the biggest issue I have is that my SPeedlite 430EX II which I have been using without issue for the last 12 years (6D then 5D mk4) fell off my R5 Mk2 on no less than 3 or 5 occasions during a 2 week trip back in November. Each time I collected it from the ground, I noticed the swivel lock was in the 'locked' position. In other words, the flash had fallen off while locked. As I obviously do not want to become sans-flash mid-trip, while I cannot confirm for the first instance, I am certain I had pushed it in all the way and it had locked properly on the hotshoe in the instances after. I do give it a good shake and tug after putting it on each time (yet it had still fallen off a few times after, after a while of use). On the same trip I had my 5D mk4 with me and it did not suffer from the same issue.

I told the Canon technician that there can only be 2 causes based on the facts... (1) the 430EX II base is not compatible with the R5 Mk2 hotshoe; or (2) the R5 Mk2 hotshoe has issues (perhaps the specific one on my camera). For (1), they've confirmed it's meant to be compatible even though there has been updates to the Canon hotshoe. And so I can only imagine it to be (2). Yet they are so far refusing to try and replace my R5 mk2 hotshoe to see if the problem goes away - saying they are not able to shake the flash off in their workshop and therefore cannot expense it to warranty.

The excuse is obviously ridiculous since I've already told him that it appeared properly locked each time, yet it's still fallen off on numerous occasions. If it happens much more, I have a serious concern that my trusty old flash will become permanently damaged.

Am I missing something here? Any thoughts or similar experiences?

No issues here. I would think that it's more likely that the lock on your flash is defective. Have you ruled that out?

I have the 430 EX II as well, but I rarely use flash. I just tried mine on my R5II for the first time. It worked like a charm, and the lock on the flash seems to hold it very securely. I must say that it's quite a thrill to be able to use flash with e-shutter. The R5II is the first camera I've owned that allows this. The synch speed of 1/160 seems pretty useful. I just dived into the flash menus, and am very impressed. Testing things out in both M and Av modes, the results seem much better than I remember getting with other cameras and that flash. Exposure was spot on. I might actually use it more.

(2) Together with the battery in the box, I've gotten 3 of the new LP-E6P batteries. In the November trip, there was one occasion where I alighted from my car and walked maybe 30-45min with 2 fully charged batteries in my backpack at 0C (32F). When I tried to swap them into the camera, there was an error on the screen on both occasions (essentially saying they were flat). Returning to warmer environment, they booted up the camera just fine. I've never had similar issues with the 5D mk4. Colder weather does make batteries hold less charge, but to make them 'appear' completely flat? Seems like it's a common issue as I see from a google search (see: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878681/6/).

The Canon technician said maybe it's because the newer R cameras need a lot of oomph to start them up, unlike the older DSLRs and hence the issue. Explanation seems vaguely plausible but still quite unsatisfactory for a semi-pro level camera operating at not that cold weather. Yes I could've kept the batteries warmer in my jacket but it did not appear all that cold and it was only a short walk away from the car.

Camera was running original firmware 1.0, but will try again with updated firmware 1.0.2 in my upcoming trip. Maybe i'll intentionally leave a fully charged battery in my backpack to see how it goes. If anyone else has had any similar experiences, would be great to hear.

Cheers!

That issue was posted here a couple of months ago. It certainly looks like it's valid to me.

I haven't had my R5ii out in temps below 0 degrees C yet, but will be taking a trip to a very cold location in a couple of weeks (-30c in the mornings). I'll be taking precautions just in case (hand warmers and gaffer's tape).

Is your camera at the latest firmware?

R2

I took mine out in sub zero temperatures (0 F, -18 C) for the first time this morning. It was fine, but I wasn't outside for long. In the cold, I always keep spare batteries in a pocket to keep them warm.

 

[homebodyMacro]

As R2 and Alastair mentioned, I will 3rd the notion that it is almost certainly the lock on your flash that is not securing it properly.

Further, the hotshoe is not designed to be some binding friction fit. From a mechanical design standpoint, it is a relatively loose clearance fit.

The flash is locked in place solely by the flash having a vertical compression lock with a soft bottom surface to bind it with friction. The flash lock surface only interacts with the top surface of the hotshoe along the perimeter.

I think there's scarcely anything you could do to the hotshoe that resembles normal use and would have any meaningful effect on the ability to lock a flash on it (if the flash lock is working).

 

[Sittatunga]

As R2 and Alastair mentioned, I will 3rd the notion that it is almost certainly the lock on your flash that is not securing it properly.

Further, the hotshoe is not designed to be some binding friction fit. From a mechanical design standpoint, it is a relatively loose clearance fit.

The flash is locked in place solely by the flash having a vertical compression lock with a soft bottom surface to bind it with friction. The flash lock surface only interacts with the top surface of the hotshoe along the perimeter - I think there's scarcely anything you could do to the hotshoe that resembles normal use and have any meaningful effect on the ability to lock a flash on it (if the flash lock is working).

With any Canon speedlite there is also a sprung pin ¼" (just over 6mm) ahead of the standard hotshoe contact. This is pushed into a corresponding hole in the shoe floor when the locking lever is engaged or the locking collar is screwed down. That makes sure all the contacts match up, but it can't engage properly to make sure the flash can't slide out if the foot isn't pushed far enough into the shoe (even if the lock has been fully pushed or screwed down).

 

[homebodyMacro]

As R2 and Alastair mentioned, I will 3rd the notion that it is almost certainly the lock on your flash that is not securing it properly.

Further, the hotshoe is not designed to be some binding friction fit. From a mechanical design standpoint, it is a relatively loose clearance fit.

The flash is locked in place solely by the flash having a vertical compression lock with a soft bottom surface to bind it with friction. The flash lock surface only interacts with the top surface of the hotshoe along the perimeter - I think there's scarcely anything you could do to the hotshoe that resembles normal use and have any meaningful effect on the ability to lock a flash on it (if the flash lock is working).

With any Canon speedlite there is also a sprung pin ¼" (just over 6mm) ahead of the standard hotshoe contact. This is pushed into a corresponding hole in the shoe floor when the locking lever is engaged or the locking collar is screwed down. That makes sure all the contacts match up, but it can't engage properly to make sure the flash can't slide out if the foot isn't pushed far enough into the shoe (even if the lock has been fully pushed or screwed down).

Yeah, there's a seat on the bottom of the hotshoe to stop the flash head from being pushed in too far via those spring pins. But as you said, that is for the contacts / doesn't prevent it falling out, and it's also a very simple feature that is very unlikely to ever cause any issues (where the flash head again would be more likely)

 

[speedtriple99]

(2) Together with the battery in the box, I've gotten 3 of the new LP-E6P batteries. In the November trip, there was one occasion where I alighted from my car and walked maybe 30-45min with 2 fully charged batteries in my backpack at 0C (32F). When I tried to swap them into the camera, there was an error on the screen on both occasions (essentially saying they were flat). Returning to warmer environment, they booted up the camera just fine. I've never had similar issues with the 5D mk4. Colder weather does make batteries hold less charge, but to make them 'appear' completely flat? Seems like it's a common issue as I see from a google search (see: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878681/6/).

I haven't read the whole thread just the last couple of pages. Much of that sounds like peoples noise and little real data or evidence. It is true that temperature affects the cells, after all chemistry is a significant part of the way in which they work. I haven't yet characterised the E6P but the job is on the todo list.

The battery issue is not noise, but yes not scientifically tested. I just have my own experience with initial FW in october - where all 3 cold fully charged E6P would indicate zero when inserted in a cold R5II (plus 1-2 deg C), and after one E6P in pocket for 5 minutes it suddenly worked indicating fully charged...

Second time 1-2 hours in minus 4-5 C this year with FW 1.0.2 there was no problems at all. R5II worked just as reliable as my old R5 did for several winters with skiing.

But based on my initial experience I do not thrust the R5II in this regard until I have used it more this winter, but hope the FW 1.0.2 did correct something Canon are holding back information on.

 

[hiki08]

As R2 and Alastair mentioned, I will 3rd the notion that it is almost certainly the lock on your flash that is not securing it properly.

Further, the hotshoe is not designed to be some binding friction fit. From a mechanical design standpoint, it is a relatively loose clearance fit.

The flash is locked in place solely by the flash having a vertical compression lock with a soft bottom surface to bind it with friction. The flash lock surface only interacts with the top surface of the hotshoe along the perimeter.

I think there's scarcely anything you could do to the hotshoe that resembles normal use and would have any meaningful effect on the ability to lock a flash on it (if the flash lock is working).

Thank you all for the replies. Busy patch of time with work/life and haven't had time to properly address the camera issue (a hobby).

I can only say I have 'ruled out' the flash's lock being the issue given I used it interchangeably on my 5D Mk4 without it ever falling off while in its locked position, while it intermittently falls off on the R5 Mk2. Also, the pin lock that extends on the flash seems to be working as normal when I operate it off-camera (so I can see its bottom).

That said, the question about the flash has become moot because (1) Canon has kindly offered to replace the hotshoe on the camera just to rule out that issue (or at least, give it a second go); and more importantly (2) it seems like from the few drops it has sustained in the recent trip because of it coming loose, the light sensor in the flash is malfunctioning and is not adjusting to the right strength, resulting in over/under exposed images. Canon has confirmed there are no more spare parts for the 430EX II so it means I'll need to get a new flash regardless.

Heading off to a trip with -5C to 10C temperatures next week so I'll see how the battery fares with the updates firmware. Thanks all.