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CharlesB58

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And that the Challenges really are a joke.

The theme of "Another HDR challenge":

"Fantasy... How far out can you get? "

One of the rules:

"Any Special Effects you want to achieve a fantastic fantasy image."

It was bad enough that only about a dozen images actually fit the description of "Fantasy" and "fantastic fantasy image". But most of the top 25 should have been disqualified based on the theme. But, of course, the host didn't bother policing up his own challenge, and most entrants didn't bother reading or abiding by the rules, and finally the voters didn't do so either.

I can't help but chuckle, at the least, at how many people may be patting themselves on the back for their winning or high placing photos which should never have been entered to begin with. (Much less the bozo's who voted down the ones that most fit the theme and rules.)

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
The Panorama challenge clearly states that the entries must show how many images were stitched and which software was used. Many of the entries aren't even panoramas. I have complained to many of these, but they are still entered. It probably isn't really important, as I enter these just for the heck of it. I don't expect to ever come in first or last, but it absolutely has no validity. Dave
--
Visit my gallery at http://www.poperotzy.smugmug.com
There is a link for saving 5.OO on your own Smugmug account.

 
What's especially revealing of the attitudes of the voters (the majority it seems are notorious for disliking "obvious HDR") is how many low votes those pictures which most fit the challenge theme received. People looked at a truly fantastic image, decided that they don't like that sort of HDR and voted it low. This despite the purpose of the tower.

If I were the host of this particular challenge, I'd be embarrassed by my own failure to properly administer my own theme and rules.
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
David Nall said:
The Panorama challenge clearly states that the entries must show how
many images were stitched and which software was used. Many of the
entries aren't even panoramas. I have complained to many of these,
but they are still entered.
Click to expand...
David, I don't even bother anymore with the challenges. Especially the lack of interest with the host and/or moderators doesn't give you the idea of any kind of seriousness with the challenges.
David Nall said:
It probably isn't really important
Click to expand...
Indeed. :-(

Although there a lot of pics worthwile in the challenges; they hardly comply with the 'rules of the game'.

It's the same with the monthly pano thread. Contributors are kindly asked to post some info about their images (location, number of shots, etc) when posting a pano. But even this small effort is sometimes obviously to much effort. :-(
 
None of these images could be produced through a single image straight out of a camera; as such, they must all have been created through post processing......Are you following?

Therefore, if they are all genuine HDR images (through PP) and they could not be created normally through a single capture than they must all fit within the realm of fantasy!!

Fantasy does not necessarily mean that they all needed to look fake, they're fantasy images because it takes post-processing to achieve such a style of image.

Maybe you should check your definitions before you go on a rant about nothing!!
 
ACanonMan said:
None of these images could be produced through a single image
straight out of a camera; as such, they must all have been created
through post processing......Are you following?

Therefore, if they are all genuine HDR images (through PP) and they
could not be created normally through a single capture than they must
all fit within the realm of fantasy!!

Fantasy does not necessarily mean that they all needed to look fake,
they're fantasy images because it takes post-processing to achieve
such a style of image.

Maybe you should check your definitions before you go on a rant about
nothing!!
Click to expand...
It's commonly accepted that an argument based on gerrymandering definitions beyond the realm of accepted meaning is a failed argument. But you gave me a good laugh.

Really, try checking definitions yourself:

fan⋅tas⋅tic
   fænˈtæstɪk
–adjective

1. conceived or appearing as if conceived by an unrestrained imagination; odd and remarkable; bizarre; grotesque: fantastic rock formations; fantastic designs.

2. fanciful or capricious, as persons or their ideas or actions: We never know what that fantastic creature will say next.

3. imaginary or groundless in not being based on reality; foolish or irrational: fantastic fears.
4. extravagantly fanciful; marvelous.
5. incredibly great or extreme; exorbitant: to spend fantastic sums of money.

6. highly unrealistic or impractical; outlandish: a fantastic scheme to make a million dollars betting on horse races.

fan⋅ta⋅sy

   ˈfæntəsi, -zi plural -sies, verb, -sied, -sy⋅ing.
–noun
1. imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.

2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.
3. a mental image, esp. when unreal or fantastic; vision: a nightmare fantasy.

4. Psychology. an imagined or conjured up sequence fulfilling a psychological need; daydream.
5. a hallucination.

6. a supposition based on no solid foundation; visionary idea; illusion: dreams of Utopias and similar fantasies.
7. caprice; whim.
8. an ingenious or fanciful thought, design, or invention.

Of COURSE you disagree with me: your own image, which scarcely fits these definitions, placed 15th-it probably should have been disqualified because despite being a very well done HDR, it's not "fantastic" or "fantasy" in the way presented by the challenge rules.

So before you try making UP definitions to suit your own view, try actually looking them up yourself. ;-) See, I can take your definition to mean that ANY photograph is "fantasy" because it involves isolating an instant in time according to the personal preference of the photographer. "All in the mind's eye" as it were. Where do you stop warping definitions to favor people who simply disregard the rules, as you did?
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
Well put.

CharlesB58 wrote:
{snip}
CharlesB58 said:
See, I can take your
definition to mean that ANY photograph is "fantasy" because it
involves isolating an instant in time according to the personal
preference of the photographer. "All in the mind's eye" as it were.
Where do you stop warping definitions to favor people who simply
disregard the rules, as you did?
Click to expand...
 
Sugarbaker said:
I especially like the multiple pics of soccer players in the
"individual sports" challenge...

edit: I spoke too soon... they have been removed. So at least the
host of that challenge is on top of things.
--
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong: some of the challenge hosts do respond quickly to complaints. And I can see the job as being daunting when hundreds of images are submitted. That doesn't change the fact that people are obviously not reading, or at least not following the rules.

Now, some might argue that it's not important enough for concern. However, I'm speaking from a point of courtesy. To wit:

Person A reads the rules. He goes out, plans his shot, and purposefully makes the capture to best fit the theme of the challenge. He optimizes the image according to whatever PP rules or restrictions are involved. Or, he combs through his files to find a shot that he thinks is worth entering.

Person B glances at the title of the challenge, picks a shot he thinks fits, and enters it. However, he hasn't bothered reading the rules closely, or he disregards them. "hehe, it's a good shot anyway" may be his thinking.

There end up being 300 images in the challenge. 100 of them are from people like Person A. The majority are from people like Person B. The average voter scans the thumbnails, looks at Person B's photo and likes it, regardless of the fact that it shouldn't even be in the challenge. Most voters don't look critically at the images: they vote for what they like, even if it should be disqualified.

Person B's shot places 5th, while Person A's shot places 6th. But Person A notices that 4 of the 5 images which beat his violate the rules. Is it fair to Person A to have put effort into following the guidelines, only to have rule breakers receive votes he should have gotten?

No, personally I don't take the results of the challenges too seriously. I use the challenges as incentive to do things photographically I might not normally do. The HDR challenge in question is a case in point. I took an experiment in HDR and overdid the tone mapping to create a "fantastic" image in that it's far removed from reality. It placed 135th. But some better images, fantastic in nature, placed lower.

Looking at the scores, the apparent trend is that images which most fit the "Fantasy" theme were given a lot of low scores. Why is that? Because voters didn't bother looking at the rules and applying them any more than most of the entrants. If the host had gone through and removed any image that didn't fit his own rules, there would probably have been less than 30 images left. People would then have voted ONLY on images that fit the theme. Those people who voted, who admit they don't like "unnatural HDR" images would have had to either vote on images they didn't like (giving them all low marks) or not at all. The whole challenge would have involved much more equitable voting.

Some are probably thinking I believe my image would have won if the rules had been enforced. Nah, I'm not that good at HDR. If roughly 2 dozen images I feel really qualified as "fantasy HDR" had been the only ones voted for, I think I'd have placed relatively the same as I did. Around 20 or lower. But at least it would have been because the other images genuinely deserved better placement, which isn't the case when the theme and rules are so flagrantly disregarded.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
I do think that people may put too much weight on how they do in challenges here online. This is a great place to submit images and see how they compare to other member's photos, but I have no dilution that I will ever win first place as I pretty consistently see photos that are better than mine. That being said I still enjoy contributing to the challenge, even if just to get one of my photos out there for others to see.

For the challenges I've entered, I do fit into the "person B" category that you describe... I have pictures from the past that I feel are very good and so I submit them when they are appropriate for the rules. I also take pride in a brief description of how the photo was obtained... which many people don't do. Even if it's a short "handheld with minor cropping in PP"... I like knowing what was done to pictures.

Anyway, I appreciate the hosts that respond to complaints, and those that offer exciting topics; it keeps the challenges fresh and keeps original content flowing.
 
Sugarbaker said:
For the challenges I've entered, I do fit into the "person B"
category that you describe... I have pictures from the past that I
feel are very good and so I submit them when they are appropriate for
the rules.
Click to expand...
If you follow the rules, you're "Person A". Person B is like the people posting images of their dogs and cats, or photos taken in zoos, in the "Mammals" challenge: what part of "Take great shots of Mammals in the Wild - not in Zoos, please! " do these people not understand?

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
CharlesB58 said:
fan⋅tas⋅tic
   fænˈtæstɪk
–adjective
1. conceived or appearing as if conceived by an unrestrained
imagination; odd and remarkable; bizarre; grotesque: fantastic rock
formations; fantastic designs.
2. fanciful or capricious, as persons or their ideas or actions: We
never know what that fantastic creature will say next.
3. imaginary or groundless in not being based on reality; foolish or
irrational: fantastic fears.
4. extravagantly fanciful; marvelous.
5. incredibly great or extreme; exorbitant: to spend fantastic sums
of money.
6. highly unrealistic or impractical; outlandish: a fantastic scheme
to make a million dollars betting on horse races.

fan⋅ta⋅sy
   ˈfæntəsi, -zi plural -sies, verb, -sied,
-sy⋅ing.
–noun
1. imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.
2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies;
imaginative conceptualizing.
3. a mental image, esp. when unreal or fantastic; vision: a
nightmare fantasy.
4. Psychology. an imagined or conjured up sequence fulfilling a
psychological need; daydream.
5. a hallucination.
6. a supposition based on no solid foundation; visionary idea;
illusion: dreams of Utopias and similar fantasies.
7. caprice; whim.
8. an ingenious or fanciful thought, design, or invention.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for providing that definition. Obviously you didn't get my point so i'll continue...the rules said "any Special Effects YOU WANT to achieve a fantastic fantasy image"!!

Now having an argument for the sake of it is not my point. I'm only pointing out that the rules provided people with a choice to use special effects, rather than saying you MUST USE special effects to...so on.

By your own admission, "a fantastic fantasy" image has a myriad of very different definitions. So then are you professing that you understand whether or not every single image could in fact fit one of these definitions. I don't think so...

If you go back and take a close and honest look at the top three images, which are all excellent, you would have to agree that each must fit some definition of fantasy.....that is unless you are living on another planet.....which from what i'm reading wouldn't exactly be a stretch of the imagination.
 
ACanonMan said:
Thanks a lot for providing that definition. Obviously you didn't get
my point so i'll continue...the rules said "any Special Effects YOU
WANT to achieve a fantastic fantasy image"!!

Now having an argument for the sake of it is not my point. I'm only
pointing out that the rules provided people with a choice to use
special effects, rather than saying you MUST USE special effects
to...so on.

By your own admission, "a fantastic fantasy" image has a myriad of
very different definitions. So then are you professing that you
understand whether or not every single image could in fact fit one of
these definitions. I don't think so...

If you go back and take a close and honest look at the top three
images, which are all excellent, you would have to agree that each
must fit some definition of fantasy.....that is unless you are living
on another planet.....which from what i'm reading wouldn't exactly be
a stretch of the imagination.
Click to expand...
As equally faulty as gerrymandering accepted definitions is trying to introduce linguistic relativism where none exists, as well as your poor attempt to obfuscate the meaning of one part of the rules by misapplying emphasis to another part.

Bill Clinton tried the same tactic in denying he'd had sex with Monica Lewinski, and no one bought it then either.

Let's apply your logic to other mediums, shall we.

Fantasy novels: "Pride and Prejudice" qualifies as a fantasy novel because it was Jane Austen's imaginative fantasy. "War and Peace" is a fantasy novel by Tolstoy. EVERY FICTION EVER WRITTEN IS ACTUALLY FANTASY!!

No, people who pay attention to definitions-like editors, English teachers, literature critics, don't consider the books I mention to be fantasy.

Fantasy movies: Put serious dramas such as "Milk" "The Reader" or other such movies in the same category as "Stardust" or "Lord of the Rings" because they are actually fantasy movies. They must be because they portray events that could likely be the fantasy of the writers and directors.

Doesn't wash either, does it?

Stick to taking photographs and leave discussions of English to those who understand that the meaning of verbs and nouns isn't as relative as you try to make them out to be. Try what you are doing in any English class and you'd receive a failing grade, and rightly so.

And yes, you are arguing just to argue.
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com
 
--

A response full of absolute nothings.....wait you must be a lawyer or a politician because no one else can write so much rubbish without actually saying anything valid.

Mate, I'm going to conclude the answer here is your jealousy....You have entered so many challenges....without luck..... and you just need somewhere to vent all that pent up frustration!!

Unfortunately, all you have done here is perpetuate the negative stereotype that all Americans are arrogant and ignorant.....don't worry at least i know the majority are not like you.

You need to understand just because you are a big boy who knows the names of famous authors and contemporary literature, you're not always right.

We can argue all day about the challenge rules but in the end....a person like you will never give in until everyone you have ever met thinks you're right...well I'm afraid to say it ain't going to happen...However, if you ever need any help improving on your HDR technique i would be glad to help as best i can....Then again you probably know better, right!
 
irony at it's best... I am like person A, and yet I had trouble reading your description... made me laugh for sure! At least I've paid attention in the challenges themselves. It's also funny because I posted in the "Mammals" challenge... and almost contributed a pic from a zoo, but caught myself at the last minute and uploaded a b&w silhouette of a deer I stumbled across in CA (from a while back). I'm curious to see what people think of the shot. Anyway, hope everyone is getting some time to get out and use their cameras. The weather has been great here in the Northwest.

as always,
-Stephen
 
I agree with you that the challenges would be better if people followed the rules more closely. That is a fine point to make, or at least it would be if you said something like:

----

Some people make an effort to follow all the rules of the challenges. At times that can require a significant effort. Of course mistakes are sometimes made and the challenges have been added to the site in the spirit of fun and learning. However, it would be more respectful to the photographers who try to make the challenges as worthwhile as possible if the challenge hosts, site administrators, and voters made more of an effort to enforce the rules. I know this won't happen instantaneously and some challenges will be better than others, but please consider this request and what it means to the people who are trying to make the challenges work. Thank you.
----

My point is similar to yours, but it's stated a little differently than what you wrote. To expand on that, there are a few things you wrote that bother me wherever I see them.

In this post...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1005&message=32163807

... you started out by talking about courtesy. Courtesy means very little when you are being courteous only when supporting the people who agree with you. The fact that you chose the subject line that you did makes me think that you have no problem dishing out superfluous insults to anyone who may have a slightly different opinion than yours. If that's you're attitude, okay, but don't talk about courtesy. If you honestly want an intelligent discussion of your subject and the superior attitude was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, then I apologize for misinterpreting your attitude. Sometimes it can be difficult to grasp the connotation of what someone is saying based on reading a brief, written statement.

You also talk about Person A and Person B. The logical fallacy of "false dilemma" is used all the time on TV, radio, the Internet, etc. and I get annoyed every time I see or hear it. Unfortunately it has worked its way into many people's way of reasoning. Regarding your statement, for example, I might agree with you that the challenge rules should be given more emphasis than most people currently give them, yet in another thread maybe I won't support the idea that it's a travesty for a photo of a salamander to be posted in the Reptile Challenge (which was recently discussed on this forum by the way). It's not a case of "you're either for or against me". There's a spectrum of opinions. Everyone knows that but people have a great capacity to ignore it, particularly when it helps them paint someone else as the bad guy.

While I appreciate the fact that you want to make the challenges better, I don't understand your tone that comes across as suprised and even cheated when everyone knows that anyone can host a challenge, anyone can submit a picture of anything they like, and the results have absolutely no consequence whatsoever. Some challenges are run relatively well, some aren't. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect in this situation? On an open website? On the Internet? In may be worth noting in a post what is happening, but does coming at it with an attitude serve a purpose?

I'm sure we won't understand each other in some respects. It's not a big deal. I really just wanted to address some of your tactics on the chance that people might not recognize what you are doing, mostly for the selfish reason that it bothers me. As I said, I think we agree on the main point and I hope the issue shows signs of improvement.
 
Captain Hook said:
It's the same with the monthly pano thread. Contributors are kindly
asked to post some info about their images (location, number of
shots, etc) when posting a pano. But even this small effort is
sometimes obviously to much effort. :-(
Click to expand...
It should be incumbent on the host to kick out the entries that don't comply with the rules. Otherwise, why have rules? Dave
--
Visit my gallery at http://www.poperotzy.smugmug.com

 
Just to be the devil's advocate here. The host could have easily disqualified your image because it isn't a fantasy image. Most of the definitions of "fantasy" that you posted included the word "imagation". Your image does not convey imagination.
--
J.V.
 
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