Proof that many dpreview visitors have poor reading comprehension.

[duartix]

Cheers Charles.

What's especially revealing of the attitudes of the voters (the
majority it seems are notorious for disliking "obvious HDR")

Guilty as charged.
I voted #1 with 1,5* and #4 with 2*.
I liked much better the PP on #2 and #3 which I voted 4,5*.

is how
many low votes those pictures which most fit the challenge theme
received.

That is one of my criteria for voting but far from the most important, unless of course the theme violation is too obvious. But in these cases I rather file a complaint.

People looked at a truly fantastic image, decided that they
don't like that sort of HDR and voted it low.

They are in their right, after all that is why you vote, to cast your preference. This is what an election is all about. The best Candidate rarely becomes the best Prime Minister.

If I were the host of this particular challenge, I'd be embarrassed
by my own failure to properly administer my own theme and rules.

I'm absolutely with you on this as IMHO, most hosts won't take care of their challenges until complaints are filed. There are exceptions, though.
--
Duarte Bruno

 

[Jan2009]

Stephen,

Yes you are Person A as Charles has said. I appreciate people who put in a few words from how they took the shot. I still put much emphasis on the photo and the text should just be supportive of image. Basically the drama should be describe in the picture.

Thanks for taking time out reading the rules.

br,
Norberto

 

[CharlesB58]

--

A response full of absolute nothings.....wait you must be a lawyer or
a politician because no one else can write so much rubbish without
actually saying anything valid.

Mate, I'm going to conclude the answer here is your jealousy....You
have entered so many challenges....without luck..... and you just
need somewhere to vent all that pent up frustration!!

Unfortunately, all you have done here is perpetuate the negative
stereotype that all Americans are arrogant and ignorant.....don't
worry at least i know the majority are not like you.

You need to understand just because you are a big boy who knows the
names of famous authors and contemporary literature, you're not
always right.

We can argue all day about the challenge rules but in the end....a
person like you will never give in until everyone you have ever met
thinks you're right...well I'm afraid to say it ain't going to
happen...However, if you ever need any help improving on your HDR
technique i would be glad to help as best i can....Then again you
probably know better, right!

Ah... so my pointing out that your attempts to use personalized, relative definitions in place of established ones is arrogant and full of nothing?

Then you resort to name calling and attempts at ridicule because I pointed out your own lack of comprehension? By reducing your argument to trying to psychoanalyze me and citing my nationality, you fail because you're resorting to personal affront instead of actually rebutting my point. Failed debate technique: resorting to attempts at character assassination when your facts can't stand up.

The glaring problem with your last paragraph is this: you're the ONLY ONE disagreeing with me by attempting to use a relative definition to justify breaking the rules. If people were agreeing with you, then you'd have a point. But they don't. You are in the minority, and in error in continuing to insist that the definitions of fantastic and fantasy can be applied to your photo (which is really the case, isn't it: your just defending your own failure to follow the rules.)

You have, basically said that Fantastic and Fantasy are terms that can be defined by the photographer even if the dictionary and common usage have established definitions, right? That is your point, correct?

So, as I said, if you tried to make this point in an English class, or any other class where clearly defined definitions are required, you would receive a failing grade.

There's no jealousy or arrogance involved in pointing out a fact.

Jealousy for not "making the grade" on these "Challenges"? LOL. First, I have no reason to be jealous because I readily admit my skills in many of the challenges are not on par with the majority of entrants. I enter them as an exercise in improving my skill or "photographic vision" by tackling techniques or subjects I don't normally go for. However, that doesn't change the fact that many of said entrants, in their own vainglorious arrogance, fail to follow the rules.

Second, "making the grade" in what is essentially a popularity contest says nothing about genuine creativity or ability. Take a close look at many of the top vote getters to see the poor focus and exposure (not even allowing for those that break the rules.) As long as people vote for images which don't match the theme or the rules, who can take these challenges seriously? Well, obviously, people like you. Given your failure to follow simple rules, should I care if you don't like my images. I'll wager you're one of those who voted low on all the "artificial looking" HDR's which best fit the theme.

Perhaps I should change my point of this thread? Instead, I should submit that many dpreview people have perfect reading comprehension: they're just too arrogant to follow rules and too unimaginative to understand what "fantasy" actually is.

BTW, my point is proved yet again by the number of team sport images in the Individual Sport challenge, the number of cats, dogs and zoo shots in the Mammals challenge, and I'm sure many other rule breakers. But, I'm sure that those entrants, as with you, will try to redefine words to justify it. "Oh but my cat was laying in the part of my backyard that I don't mow, so it's 'in the wild'". LOL

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[CharlesB58]

Yes, my thread title was meant to be tongue in cheek.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[CharlesB58]

Your image does not convey imagination.
--
J.V.

How so?

Compared to say, this image:

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=126593&View=Results&Rows=25

which to me is just an average landscape shot which uses HDR to give it more vibrancy, but doesn't convey much imagination.

as opposed to this one:

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=126195&View=Results&Rows=25

which I feel is evokes a sense of imagination and fantasy "What lies beyond the doorway?"

or this one:

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=125988&View=Results&Rows=25

Which placed lower than mine, but is quite a fantastic, fantasy looking image in my opinion.

I'd honestly like your feedback on why you think my shot doesn't convey imagination.

You see, I'm a writer, a story teller. My "photographic style" is more editorial than pictorial. When I take a shot, I am thinking of it as part of a narrative. That's why some of the photos on my gallery have "unusual" captions. Few of my images are intended to stand alone, and so it's a stretch for me, artistically and technically, to come up with images that fit the themes of many challenges in a way that most voters will like. I'm not a "nice shot" sort of person. I'm more of a "what is going on?" type of photographer.

I realize that many of the people who most frequent dpreview tend to be more pictorially oriented, since the focus of so many is about gear, pixel peeping, DR, IQ etc. Many of them produce images that are wonderful, and I don't have any false aspirations that I can produce better ones of that style or genre. So I already accept that many of the images I consider my best efforts won't be popular with a lot of people because they don't meet with the expectations of pictorialists. And of course, using a "P&S" automatically makes my images inferior in the minds of some.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[ajay0612]

Your image does not convey imagination.
--
J.V.

I'd honestly like your feedback on why you think my shot doesn't
convey imagination.

OK. Let us listen how have you tried to convey imagination through that shot. Please speak out. Sometimes words are needed to decipher an image.

You see, I'm a writer, a story teller. My "photographic style" is
more editorial than pictorial. When I take a shot, I am thinking of
it as part of a narrative. That's why some of the photos on my
gallery have "unusual" captions.

In such cases a narrative will help the viewer understand your image better.

Few of my images are intended to
stand alone, and so it's a stretch for me, artistically and
technically, to come up with images that fit the themes of many
challenges in a way that most voters will like.

That is a challenge for everyone. You are not alone.

I'm not a "nice shot"
sort of person. I'm more of a "what is going on?" type of
photographer.

Here you are putting yourself in minority (or should I say misplaced identitiy). Theme based challeneges are all about being creative & thinking out of the box. "Nice image" are the ones which induce a positive emotions in the viewer. Most would like to produce such images.

I realize that many of the people who most frequent dpreview tend to
be more pictorially oriented, since the focus of so many is about
gear, pixel peeping, DR, IQ etc. Many of them produce images that are
wonderful, and I don't have any false aspirations that I can produce
better ones of that style or genre. So I already accept that many of
the images I consider my best efforts won't be popular with a lot of
people because they don't meet with the expectations of
pictorialists. And of course, using a "P&S" automatically makes my
images inferior in the minds of some.

These challenges are to be voted by public. So in your images use the pictorial language which the public can understand. For fine arts there are other forums and challenges on the web.
--
Best Wishes, Ajay
http://picasaweb.google.com/ajay0612

 

[CharlesB58]

OK. Let us listen how have you tried to convey imagination through
that shot. Please speak out. Sometimes words are needed to decipher
an image.

I took several captures of this ornamental basket. I have a "straight" version of it in my gallery entitled, rather tongue in cheek, "Pine Cones Attack Gourds, Film at 11". I found it unusual to have a basket made up of gourds and pine cones instead of fruit. I was intrigued by the combination of textures, hues early morning light. The shot on my gallery is HDR in that it combines 3 exposures to even out the tonal range.

I tried several different subjects to come up with an image I felt matched the theme of the challenge. As I experimented with tone mapping of this image, I found myself leaning toward an image in which the texture and hue of the gourds became fanciful, eventually leaving the question of whether they are some sort of fruit, or something else, up to the imagination. I looked at the image I entered and thought, "if I'd been on lsd the morning I took this shot, this is probably what it would have looked like to me". Hence, the fantasy of imagining an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not a "nice shot"
sort of person. I'm more of a "what is going on?" type of
photographer.

Here you are putting yourself in minority (or should I say misplaced
identitiy). Theme based challeneges are all about being creative &
thinking out of the box. "Nice image" are the ones which induce a
positive emotions in the viewer. Most would like to produce such
images.

Why is it a matter of misplaced identity. Lots of people take images that are intended to evoke positive emotions, including me. But I also stretch myself to take images that evoke not so positive emotions (at least not so positive for some people). I don't enter a challenge expecting to win. It's a matter of doing so to complete the "assignment" I've given myself based on the challenge. I've entered images in only about half the challenges for which I've set about making images. Usually I don't enter an image if I felt I haven't realized the theme to my own satisfaction.

Also, my "nice shot" reference involves the many images people post on these forums, asking for feedback, and all they get is "nice shot". Images which are wonders to be hold: "nice shot". Images which display obvious technical flaws or lack of artistic/compositional quality: "nice shot". The "nice shot" accolade is indeed based on whether a person likes the emotions he feels when viewing the image. But it seems that on this site, and in the challenges, it is applied by some who use little or no critical thinking in assessing images.

These challenges are to be voted by public. So in your images use
the pictorial language which the public can understand. For fine arts
there are other forums and challenges on the web.

I'm not trying to win votes. I'm seeing to what degree images I view as "successful" are deemed the same by this particular audience. I have other venues in which people assess my images from a different perspective or stylistic understanding. I also want to see the degree to which others agree with my own opinions on the merits of not only my images, but others in a challenge. Going back and reviewing tallies, I find that in certain themes my votes are consistent with final placement. In others, there is quite a difference. When that happens, I think about what led to the difference in my opinion verses the consensus. In some cases it's because what I considered a quality image was quite different from the majority.

I tend to assess an image based on subject matter, composition and emotional impact first, then technical merit. My experience here, and in dealing with camera clubs in the past, is that gear oriented photographers focus on technique more than emotional impact or artistic success. Ergo, how can the votes on an HDR challenge, which states that the images should be fantastic and fantasy related, be taken seriously when it seems that a sizeable percentage of both entrants and voters don't like the very images which best fit that theme: unnatural looking HDR? That's somewhat akin to asking a bunch of anti-alcohol advocates to vote in a wine competition.

This thread is not about whether my shots are popular with dpreview people. It's about the constant disregard for the rules. Peruse the current Mammals challenge and what I've said here, in concept, applies to that challenge as well. It's revealing how some have sought to defend the tendency.

Why do I think the rules are important enough to start a thread discussing the failure of so many to abide by them? Because photography involves discipline, as do all art forms. Lacking the discipline to follow rules should not be "rewarded" on equal status with those who do follow them. That's basic common sense and respect for the efforts of others.

One or two rule breakers can be dismissed, more or less, but when 10% or more images which don't fit the theme or follow the rules undermines the validity of the voting process. Does anyone really want that?

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[jbf]

Why do I think the rules are important enough to start a thread
discussing the failure of so many to abide by them? Because
photography involves discipline, as do all art forms. Lacking the
discipline to follow rules should not be "rewarded" on equal status
with those who do follow them. That's basic common sense and respect
for the efforts of others.

One thing I think you're missing is that mom's with compact cameras, young kids taking their first photos, people who are beginning to experiment with advanced retouching techniques, people who have a camera but are more into birds than photography, gearheads who like to play with new technology, etc. are all part of this site. Don't try to shoehorn everyone into your view of photography.

I'm not criticizing the fact that you made a suggestion on how to improve the site. It's the fact that you're ignoring the variety of people who participate in this site that bothers me. You complained about the mammal challenge. When an animal challenge comes along, wouldn't you expect to get casual photographers both submitting and voting? Start a challenge that matches your interests.

Contrary to what it may seem, I don't like lectures and rants. This is just a subject that has gotten under my skin mostly due to previous threads.

The info you provided in your last post about why and how you took your basket image was great. I read the forums for those kinds of discussions. I also looked through your gallery and think it's some of the more creative work I've seen.

Also, if you have the time, I'd like to hear more about why you chose the image by Luigi Montefoschi as one of your favorites in the fantasy HDR challenge. I spent some time looking at it and I don't see it, but I'd like to understand it better. I'll be away from my computer for a few days so I won't be able to respond. I'll check when I get back. If you don't have time to explain, I understand.

Thanks,
jbf

 

[CharlesB58]

Thanks for you encouraging words regarding my gallery. The link works! LOL

First let me say that the skill of a photographer is irrelevant to following the rules. I readily give allowances for how language issues on an international site such as this can lead to mistaken entries. I've seen a few phrases which, if I didn't realize they were written by someone from the United Kingdom, would have left me at a loss for what the person was trying to say.

There are plenty of images entered by "beginners" which I vote highly for because I feel they are well done. Conversely, I see many images made with expensive gear by presumably experienced photographers that I feel aren't as good.

I liked Mr. Montefoschi's image because it gave me a deep sense of viewing a fantasy world. The narrative it gave me was that I had just awakened in a city on some alien world, overwhelmed by what I see (and also explaining the tilted perspective). That way of "photographic seeing" is how my mind works. I tend to inject myself into the photo and imagine what it represents or portrays in context of what ISN'T in the photo.

"A picture is worth a thousand words" and often I come up with about that many to tell the story a picture evokes from me. Thus, if a picture doesn't provoke a narrative response from me, I don't consider it one I would like better than an image of the same subject or genre which does evoke a narrative response. This is why I say I will vote higher for a technically flawed shot that is evocative than for a technically well done shot that lacks impact. By that I mean "narrative impact": it offers part of a story that goes beyond the pictorial representation of a scene.

This is why one of my personal projects is the "Imperfection" series, where I search for flowers or plants that have imperfections that might dissuade other photographers from taking a picture. I attempt to create an image which leads the viewer to wonder why I took that particular shot (instead of one without flaws) as well as hopefully offer part of a story to lead the imagination of the viewer into their own narrative as to what caused the imperfection.

I also do this to express a common Native American practice of intentionally introducing a flaw into anything crafted. The idea is that only Creator is perfect, so by including intentional imperfections we honor Creator and remind ourselves of our own imperfection.

--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com

 

[theque2]

First, I agree that many people do not follow the challenge rules very well. Howeverm you used the worst possible challenge for your example.

In my mind (And pretty much definition) fantasy is anything one would fantasize about but was not reality. To give a blunt and well understood example for those of us who are adults here; if you ask your partner there sexual fantasy.

As this challenge did not clearly specify what type of fantasy, I believe it left the contest far to vague to be properly judged. I find that any real contest you enter will have pretty specific rules as to keep the judging as non bias as possible.

Example.

Say this stated it was a fantasy challenge, and the author must portray a fantasy in which is consistent with a J.R.R Tolkien novel. Furthermore these photos must be of an environmental nature (not people).

You must also give criteria on How to judge the photos. I have been a judge in a couple food challenges and it is told to us up front what we will be looking for. Even if I disagreed, I still had to give it a rating based on the 3-5 set criteria.

Lastly I do not think a 5 star single vote is a valid voting system. The issue with this is you are only judging on personal taste as opposed to skill. If there were 3 criteria, 1) How well does the picture meet the criteria. 2) Composition of picture. 3) Originality of picture withing the scope of the rules.

The above would be far more concise to participants and the judging.

In conclusion, you have a very valid point about participants not following the rules as you, maybe someone else or even I may interpret the rules. However, I do believe most of the contests are to open to interpretation as to the rules. I believe a good 70%+ believe they are following the rules. This is a fine balance you must play though, the more strict your rules are the more you are stiffening creativity.

All of that being said, the number 1 picture for that challenge not only fits the bill of fantasy (for me) and is wonderfully done. Well deserved win. The picture of the VW bus did not fit the bill for me, when I saw the picture I did not fantasize about anything, I just thought they played with the colors to make it "neat". BUT, I am sure the author of that picture loves cars and the psyicadelic(sp) feeling of an old VW may just be a fantasy of his. Again to vague on the rules for me.

This may be the third time I have said "one last thing," but I would like to see more of the challenges state that these pictures must be new. As in you read the challenge and went out to compete in it. I do not like the idea of submitting old work. In a real for money contest, old work not only is acceptable, but often wins. However, I understood the purpose of these challenges was to promote activity. Just me, and my 2 pennies.

Raymond Tayse

 

[theque2]

To CharlesB58:

Please do not listen or take to heart to much of what has been said on this thread. The fact is you did a great job with your photograph and described very well in your post how YOU felt it was fantasy.

Personally, I did think it fit the bill, the colors and fell did make me feel as if I were looking at a picture that came from a Hobbit type novel. I do not know how to describe it but I liked it. I actually thought when I saw it... "I wonder if thats what Ogres eat." 4 Stars from me.

However, from your description above, I understood you to say this was a past photo that you edited. This is obviously withing the scope of the rules, But I would have personally given you a lower star rating if I had known that. Again, one of my criteria is the current effort, not past, but thats just me.

 

[CharlesB58]

Thanks for the encouragement. I took the photo about the time the challenge was announced, but was focusing on the other HDR challenge with my efforts. Since the photo I'd entered in that challenge was not at all a fantasy (a shot of the flags flown to honor Meskwaki soldiers and marines killed in combat) I decided to extend the effect of an image I was currently working on. If you visit my gallery, you will find the original "Pine Cones Attack Gourds Film at 11" which is also an HDR, but much more subtle in the tone mapping. and color saturation.
--
http://saro_shots.photoshop.com