Post processing products and techniques - Part 10 (JPEG and raw)

[spike29]

knip

I don't know if it matters or not.

physics would say yes. if you alter the characteristiqs of a lens system it would be changing something. (if it shows? i don't know, if i recall the settings in fz200 has optional menu setting if a teleconverter is added so in that case they added some correction inside.)

Like fisheye or macro those lens types have optical distortions more then "normal" lenses so i my mind you have to see the difference in a raw developer application if not corrected.

is it a big deal or not? i don't know. (never used one) That's why it popped in to my head.

But assuming it does, are you suggesting the software suppliers should add settings to take account of close-up lenses? I can't see that happening - too much work for too small an audience to make it worth their while I should think.

I not sure how this works, but i thought that lens manufactures handover there characteristics of a certain lens to developer program makers and so they fit those in the supported lens and camera list. (I remember (if correctly) that DxO reject those info and test the stuff themselfs to ad lens correction characteristics in the supportlist.)

--
Nick
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
GardenersAssistant Photography Videos - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmBgEwRDfiQMYTPORSzDxvw
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...-dslr-primes-a-journey-of-exploration.531050/

 

[Mikedigi]

. . . even with Helicon Filter, where I am already on my 3rd downloaded version, where there are 4 options of RAW Converter, two of which may work with .RW2, and where I may well have difficulty in matching the results I get from onboard Venus, if I don't worry too much about dark shadows and blown highlights - which, mostly, I don't, with reasonable care with exposure.

It's just me, not a natural computer swimmer.

( Nick and Spike never did say that RAW Processing is simple and have been extremely helpful, many thanks, again. A short video from Nick is worth a thousand words. )

I shall follow up Nick's latest advice and try to settle on one of the RAW processing options in HF.

I see myself continuing to shoot JPEGs and switching on RAW when I know I shall have problems with the JPEGs.

I shall continue with the Helicon Filter thread, which is, at the very least, harmless, and it has given me a lot of specific help. I shall not get into anything more complicated than Helicon Filter.

Thanks again,

Mike

 

[old jim]

I shall continue with the Helicon Filter thread, which is, at the very least, harmless, and it has given me a lot of specific help. I shall not get into anything more complicated than Helicon Filter.

Thanks again,

Mike

I suspect the appropriate comment is "Famous Last Words" LOL. You may be more adventurous than you think Mike? It's interesting to me to follow these threads. I thank you all for the continuing examination, and explanation of these software's. I find myself doing things (PP) that I couldn't before Nick started all this. I hope it, and your contributions, continues!!!!
warmest regards,

 

[Mikedigi]

I shall continue with the Helicon Filter thread, which is, at the very least, harmless, and it has given me a lot of specific help. I shall not get into anything more complicated than Helicon Filter.

Thanks again,

Mike

I suspect the appropriate comment is "Famous Last Words" LOL. You may be more adventurous than you think Mike? It's interesting to me to follow these threads. I thank you all for the continuing examination, and explanation of these software's. I find myself doing things (PP) that I couldn't before Nick started all this. I hope it, and your contributions, continues!!!!

LOL - Thanks Jim, I enjoy this Forum, whatever we are discussing, and if, from all the more erudite discussions, I find a level where I can happily operate, that is time well spent.

If I do go on to more exotic heights, that is fine, but I am getting to know myself fairly well.

Mike

 

[spike29]

. . . even with Helicon Filter, where I am already on my 3rd downloaded version, where there are 4 options of RAW Converter, two of which may work with .RW2, and where I may well have difficulty in matching the results I get from onboard Venus, if I don't worry too much about dark shadows and blown highlights - which, mostly, I don't, with reasonable care with exposure.

I keep my self out there, do not use HF so no clue what so ever.. ;-)

It's just me, not a natural computer swimmer.

( Nick and Spike never did say that RAW Processing is simple and have been extremely helpful, many thanks, again. A short video from Nick is worth a thousand words. )

I didn't do that much (Nick is the guru here) but your welcome, glad i could do some help.

I shall follow up Nick's latest advice and try to settle on one of the RAW processing options in HF.

Best way (At leased it works for me) to get know your way around a program is focus on one aspect at the time, find a image witch give you some thing to do and start messing around or ask around, write down the things you did, develop to a jpeg named "highlight test 1"or so (word doc's and insert the images do did) initialize image (back to start) do it again but different write that down also develop the image put it in the same word doc. In this way you can look back on what you did and what this effected. After you "master" one thing write done the key handling for a certain adjustment put the before image and the after image in the doc. Move on to the next type of adjustment do the same. In this way you write your one user handyguide to look back at when get stuck.

I see myself continuing to shoot JPEGs and switching on RAW when I know I shall have problems with the JPEGs.

Slippery road......

I shall continue with the Helicon Filter thread, which is, at the very least, harmless, and it has given me a lot of specific help. I shall not get into anything more complicated than Helicon Filter.

Thanks again,

Mike

 

[gardenersassistant]

(Nick is the guru here)

Hmm..... I'm learning the same as everyone here.

but your welcome, glad i could do some help.

I shall follow up Nick's latest advice and try to settle on one of the RAW processing options in HF.

Best way (At leased it works for me) to get know your way around a program is focus on one aspect at the time, find a image witch give you some thing to do and start messing around or ask around, write down the things you did, develop to a jpeg named "highlight test 1"or so (word doc's and insert the images do did) initialize image (back to start) do it again but different write that down also develop the image put it in the same word doc. In this way you can look back on what you did and what this effected. After you "master" one thing write done the key handling for a certain adjustment put the before image and the after image in the doc. Move on to the next type of adjustment do the same. In this way you write your one user handyguide to look back at when get stuck.

That sounds like a good approach to me. I do something similar. I don't write things down in a document (might be better if I did), but I try alternatives and save them with file names adjusted so I know which is which. I then use Faststone Image viewer to flip back and forth between two or more versions, using the left and right arrows to move back and forth so I can keep my eyes fixed on one part of the images at a time. That way I can see the differences much easier. And when I find some settings that seem to work ok (as a good starting point - individual images may need slightly different treatment) I note down those settings on a scrap of paper that stays on my desk until I'm familiar enough with using the settings that I don't need the note any more.

On the "one aspect at a time" front, I spent quite a lot of time concentrating on Silkypix brightness/highlights/shadows etc. I'm more comfortable with that now and for the past few days I've been working on sharpening.

I know it's not a popular pastime, but reading users guides can be helpful. Just this morning I printed out a couple of chapters from the Silkypix user guide so I can study them more carefully. There really is a lot of information there, behind a veil of rather strange language. (The Helicon Filter user guide is much, much better in its language, being eminently readable and easy to understand.)

 

[Mikedigi]

. . . . I shall follow up Nick's latest advice and try to settle on one of the RAW processing options in HF.

Best way (At leased it works for me) to get know your way around a program is focus on one aspect at the time, find a image witch give you some thing to do and start messing around or ask around, write down the things you did, develop to a jpeg named "highlight test 1"or so (word doc's and insert the images do did) initialize image (back to start) do it again but different write that down also develop the image put it in the same word doc. In this way you can look back on what you did and what this effected. After you "master" one thing write done the key handling for a certain adjustment put the before image and the after image in the doc. Move on to the next type of adjustment do the same. In this way you write your one user handyguide to look back at when get stuck.

Thanks Spike, that sounds a very good way of working.

Mike

 

[Mikedigi]

That sounds like a good approach to me. I do something similar. I don't write things down in a document (might be better if I did), but I try alternatives and save them with file names adjusted so I know which is which. I then use Faststone Image viewer to flip back and forth between two or more versions, using the left and right arrows to move back and forth so I can keep my eyes fixed on one part of the images at a time. That way I can see the differences much easier. And when I find some settings that seem to work ok (as a good starting point - individual images may need slightly different treatment) I note down those settings on a scrap of paper that stays on my desk until I'm familiar enough with using the settings that I don't need the note any more.

Sounds good.

On the "one aspect at a time" front, I spent quite a lot of time concentrating on Silkypix brightness/highlights/shadows etc. I'm more comfortable with that now and for the past few days I've been working on sharpening.

Yes.

I know it's not a popular pastime, but reading users guides can be helpful. Just this morning I printed out a couple of chapters from the Silkypix user guide so I can study them more carefully. There really is a lot of information there, behind a veil of rather strange language. (The Helicon Filter user guide is much, much better in its language, being eminently readable and easy to understand.)

Yes, I hope to spend more time in it.

To cut a long, boring story short, I fell over on Monday and broke my left patella/ kneecap, so now my left leg is in a full length fibreglass "cast" to keep it straight - for six weeks - followed by 3-4 weeks of getting the knee to work again.

Minor injury, major waste of a summer.

So I have no excuse for not reading the Helicon Filter manual. Number of "useful" things that I can do is greatly reduced, though Upper Management, now acting as the Care Department, may not notice the difference too much.

Mike

 

[spike29]

That sounds like a good approach to me. I do something similar. I don't write things down in a document (might be better if I did), but I try alternatives and save them with file names adjusted so I know which is which. I then use Faststone Image viewer to flip back and forth between two or more versions, using the left and right arrows to move back and forth so I can keep my eyes fixed on one part of the images at a time. That way I can see the differences much easier. And when I find some settings that seem to work ok (as a good starting point - individual images may need slightly different treatment) I note down those settings on a scrap of paper that stays on my desk until I'm familiar enough with using the settings that I don't need the note any more.

Sounds good.

On the "one aspect at a time" front, I spent quite a lot of time concentrating on Silkypix brightness/highlights/shadows etc. I'm more comfortable with that now and for the past few days I've been working on sharpening.

Yes.

I know it's not a popular pastime, but reading users guides can be helpful. Just this morning I printed out a couple of chapters from the Silkypix user guide so I can study them more carefully. There really is a lot of information there, behind a veil of rather strange language. (The Helicon Filter user guide is much, much better in its language, being eminently readable and easy to understand.)

Yes, I hope to spend more time in it.

To cut a long, boring story short, I fell over on Monday and broke my left patella/ kneecap, so now my left leg is in a full length fibreglass "cast" to keep it straight - for six weeks - followed by 3-4 weeks of getting the knee to work again.

auwch!!! i can feel it over here! (i did once snap my achilles wile doing sports moment of happening 1 second. repaired with rope/band drill and stitches and 8 weeks annoying the UM by being home all the time. (timing was great, she was pregnant of the first so ...eh moodswings....) ;-)

Anyway; good luck and get well soon!

Minor injury, major waste of a summer.

So I have no excuse for not reading the Helicon Filter manual. Number of "useful" things that I can do is greatly reduced, though Upper Management, now acting as the Care Department, may not notice the difference too much.

Mike

LOL :-D

 

[spike29]

(Nick is the guru here)

Hmm..... I'm learning the same as everyone here.

you did the most of testing and digging here ;-)

but your welcome, glad i could do some help.

I shall follow up Nick's latest advice and try to settle on one of the RAW processing options in HF.

Best way (At leased it works for me) to get know your way around a program is focus on one aspect at the time, find a image witch give you some thing to do and start messing around or ask around, write down the things you did, develop to a jpeg named "highlight test 1"or so (word doc's and insert the images do did) initialize image (back to start) do it again but different write that down also develop the image put it in the same word doc. In this way you can look back on what you did and what this effected. After you "master" one thing write done the key handling for a certain adjustment put the before image and the after image in the doc. Move on to the next type of adjustment do the same. In this way you write your one user handyguide to look back at when get stuck.

That sounds like a good approach to me. I do something similar. I don't write things down in a document (might be better if I did), but I try alternatives and save them with file names adjusted so I know which is which. I then use Faststone Image viewer to flip back and forth between two or more versions, using the left and right arrows to move back and forth so I can keep my eyes fixed on one part of the images at a time. That way I can see the differences much easier. And when I find some settings that seem to work ok (as a good starting point - individual images may need slightly different treatment) I note down those settings on a scrap of paper that stays on my desk until I'm familiar enough with using the settings that I don't need the note any more.

On the "one aspect at a time" front, I spent quite a lot of time concentrating on Silkypix brightness/highlights/shadows etc. I'm more comfortable with that now and for the past few days I've been working on sharpening.

and? some interesting outcome about sharpening type and sliders?

I found the Dynamic Range stretching by hightlight recovery tool and Dodge/ colorburn slider very useful, and blacklevel is very handy to get some microcontrast/dept back.

(i found also a use for the Tone curve tool, i use i as a tool to find the max-ed out area's by hoovering over the image and watch the small circle go up and down, to much at the top=> to bright, to much at the bottom => to dark.) (the Histogram is also inside so two things at the same time.)

Like the display warning with out the annoying flashing which drags to much attention. And it flash before it is 255 level in the tone curve .

I know it's not a popular pastime, but reading users guides can be helpful. Just this morning I printed out a couple of chapters from the Silkypix user guide so I can study them more carefully. There really is a lot of information there, behind a veil of rather strange language. (The Helicon Filter user guide is much, much better in its language, being eminently readable and easy to understand.)

I did the hole manual and binding it by a customer of me, a lot easier to swallow on paper by going back and forward.

--
Nick
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
GardenersAssistant Photography Videos - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmBgEwRDfiQMYTPORSzDxvw
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...-dslr-primes-a-journey-of-exploration.531050/

 

[gardenersassistant]

To cut a long, boring story short, I fell over on Monday and broke my left patella/ kneecap, so now my left leg is in a full length fibreglass "cast" to keep it straight - for six weeks - followed by 3-4 weeks of getting the knee to work again.

Oh! I'm really sorry to hear that Mike. I wish you patience to cope with the tedium.

Minor injury, major waste of a summer.

So I have no excuse for not reading the Helicon Filter manual. Number of "useful" things that I can do is greatly reduced,

But on the not so useful (but potentially quite interesting) front, can you still use your PC ok?

though Upper Management, now acting as the Care Department, may not notice the difference too much.

Mike

 

[Mikedigi]

auwch!!! i can feel it over here! (i did once snap my achilles wile doing sports moment of happening 1 second. repaired with rope/band drill and stitches and 8 weeks annoying the UM by being home all the time. (timing was great, she was pregnant of the first so ...eh moodswings....) ;-)

Anyway; good luck and get well soon!

Thanks very much, I'll do my best.

I bet that a lot of people in this situation fall over a second time, with the balance difficulties, etc. I'll have to be careful.

Mike

 

[Mikedigi]

Oh! I'm really sorry to hear that Mike. I wish you patience to cope with the tedium.

Thanks very much Nick.

But on the not so useful (but potentially quite interesting) front, can you still use your PC ok?

Yes, it's OK, with my left foot on an upturned bucket, and the monitor brought forward towards me.

The first extremely painful stage is over and I am no longer on Ibuprofen. I am comfortable. except for the usual stomach aches caused by the 7-day course of antibiotic.

Mike

 

[gardenersassistant]

On the "one aspect at a time" front, I spent quite a lot of time concentrating on Silkypix brightness/highlights/shadows etc. I'm more comfortable with that now and for the past few days I've been working on sharpening.

and? some interesting outcome about sharpening type and sliders?

Still learning and familiarisation. Picking away at it. Revealing some fragments but don't know how they fit together yet, so nothing coherent to report yet.

I found the Dynamic Range stretching by hightlight recovery tool and Dodge/ colorburn slider very useful, and blacklevel is very handy to get some microcontrast/dept back.

Yes, apart from sharpening those are what I use most in SP7 (having run DXO on the images first). I find I'm not using the HDR versions of dodge, burn or dodge+burn.

(i found also a use for the Tone curve tool, i use i as a tool to find the max-ed out area's by hoovering over the image and watch the small circle go up and down, to much at the top=> to bright, to much at the bottom => to dark.) (the Histogram is also inside so two things at the same time.)

Thanks. I've just been trying that. It's good.

Like the display warning with out the annoying flashing which drags to much attention. And it flash before it is 255 level in the tone curve .

I know it's not a popular pastime, but reading users guides can be helpful. Just this morning I printed out a couple of chapters from the Silkypix user guide so I can study them more carefully. There really is a lot of information there, behind a veil of rather strange language. (The Helicon Filter user guide is much, much better in its language, being eminently readable and easy to understand.)

I did the hole manual and binding it by a customer of me, a lot easier to swallow on paper by going back and forward.

Yes, there is something different about reading things on paper rather than on screen. Much better.

 

[gardenersassistant]

Oh! I'm really sorry to hear that Mike. I wish you patience to cope with the tedium.

Thanks very much Nick.

But on the not so useful (but potentially quite interesting) front, can you still use your PC ok?

Yes, it's OK, with my left foot on an upturned bucket, and the monitor brought forward towards me.

The first extremely painful stage is over and I am no longer on Ibuprofen. I am comfortable. except for the usual stomach aches caused by the 7-day course of antibiotic.

So far so good. I don't suppose you should spend too long in that position - I can imagine it being a problem for your lower back. But in short bursts - an opportunity to relieve the boredom with a little experimental post processing from time to time perhaps?

Mike

 

[Mikedigi]

Yes, it's OK, with my left foot on an upturned bucket, and the monitor brought forward towards me.

So far so good. I don't suppose you should spend too long in that position - I can imagine it being a problem for your lower back. But in short bursts - an opportunity to relieve the boredom with a little experimental post processing from time to time perhaps?

Bucket height is critical, get it right, and lower back is not twisted.

Good first success - I've managed to download the pics from your latest "Alternative Processes", Church, Flickr folder.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[gardenersassistant]

Yes, it's OK, with my left foot on an upturned bucket, and the monitor brought forward towards me.

So far so good. I don't suppose you should spend too long in that position - I can imagine it being a problem for your lower back. But in short bursts - an opportunity to relieve the boredom with a little experimental post processing from time to time perhaps?

Bucket height is critical,

You have an adjustable bucket?

get it right, and lower back is not twisted.

Good to hear.

Good first success - I've managed to download the pics from your latest "Alternative Processes", Church, Flickr folder.

Promising start.

 

[spike29]

I stumbled around in tone/contrast section and if you check the "Show tone on "Tone Curve" the diagram/histogram can give you some more extra information about the contrast in the image, please correct me if i go bongus... :-D

What does the manual say about the tone curve:

The "Tone curve" is a tool for making minute adjustments to tone expression after completing adjustments to other biases and for converting brightness for effect.

So far as i can extract from the tool:

• straight white line between the two arrowed sliders (level correction 0-255) is the Dynamic range of all colors together: full black (0) - full white (255) The Tone Curve represents all the tones of your image, In other words, going left to right, the curve starts with Shadows, Darks, Lights and ends with Highlights. source
• the presets like highkey or low key are big steps up or down so i see no use of those. (yet)
• The blinking highlight warning started at around 230 (lightblue) 254 (red) 255+ (black) blinking. (So imho everything blinking not black is inside the DR)
• windows pointer on checkbox Show tone curve is showing the actual image contrast/tone line (bended line is turning white)
• If the image is highly contrast rich and you push the contrast to right side the curve is more able to bend then by a more even balanced image.
• if tonecurve is set on L (luminance) you see the overall affect of the black level slider so blacklevel is basicly the luminance adjusting. (It is the Dimmer of the lightbulb behind the image so to speak. 0 - no dimming and higher number is more dimming until 100 is nearly off.) (pull the line down and is totaly black.=> lightbulb out)
• Gamma is the opposite of blacklevel, it is shifting the hole lumination to the right and makes the hole image brighter.
• contrast center is sliding the crosspoint (between straight and curved) up and down the straight line: shows you where the center is (the place where contrast/tone adjustment has no effect.)

Ok what give this info in a practical way?

That is a bit hazy, depends on what your understand about the use of the tone sliders like Gamma, blacklevel, contrast center in a theoretical way. (i am still learning to grasp the full picture here ;-) )

The tone sliders are limited in there adjustment-power and if needed you can go further/beyond this limitation by sliding the curved line more up or down (go to "super strong contrast" so to speak)

in the shadow and highlights department it can give information about how far the spot/pixelgroup is near the zero or maxed out point (clippingpoint) in digits.

blacklevel: wel that is the white blob/spike in the histogram, luminance. (the intensity of light emitted from a surface per unit area in a given direction.)

In the more photographic way of use i revere to Cambridge in colour histogram / luminosity.

So does it help you? eh you see in the image preview also the change and behaviour of the adjustments and we mostly do corrections by eye and mood of the day.

So i see the tone curve tool as a oscilloscope or stroboscope, a extra tool to confirm what your eyes and ears are detecting.

 

[Mikedigi]

Bucket height is critical,

You have an adjustable bucket?

LOL !!! No.I have several buckets of different height, so analogy is with DSLR Prime lenses, not with zoom lenses.

 

[spike29]

a extra edit:

exposure adjustment EV -3 or +3 is NOT the same as gamma and blacklevel.

Gamma max out right something in the range of +1/2 ev.


gamma max up, notice the tone curve.


1/2 ev up histogram looks almost the same, but the tone curve is less up and see the trunk ofthe bird

So gamma up for brightness correction is ripping out the contrast of your picture even when the overal image is looking nearly the same.


go the other way, gamma max down and blacklevel max up, heavy contrast lower section.


ev -3, overal contrast is the same (tone curve stays the same.) even -3 can reach the overal darknes of the image with gamma and blacklevel.

Some more testing reveals the nature of the line:


hit auto adjust ev and it gives +.65, line and tonecurve stays the same.


use the hystogram as comparing tool to try to get the same image.


try to get the same preview by brighten up more.

my conclusion:

EV: is raising or lowering the straight line in the tone curve tool/histogram without changing angle of the line, contrast (tone) or Dynamic Range and when image reach clipping point you see the spike on the right appear , highlight is falling out the dynamic range , clipping colors.

shifting the tone curve range , steepen the line, is the opposite of HDR. or dodge-ing/burning.

So imho the tone curve tool shows me the difference of the sliders/tools even when the image looks almost the same using different tools (ev).

step one: histogram and EV adjustment top get the spikes/blobs in the middle (crop first if needed)

step two: use dodge and burn tool to level out to the clipping points left and right.

Step three: White Balance setting for overall color temperature.

step four, use tonal tools like contrast(center), saturation, black level, gamma to spike (no correlation :-D ) up the image more.

step five: sharpening.

Eye drops do some combination things automatic : skin color enhancement, black level tool, grey balance. these are like the auto exposure button, sometimes nice other time ugly.

edit: the tone curve tool is just more agressive than the sliders , they give adjust room around the base tone curve. But you can totally twist the image around to a "alien" image with the tone curve tool. But for normal post processing a image it is more a measurementdevice to see what is happening in the image and not a tool. (or you must go over the restriction of the sliders......)