Poll: should we lie to beginners?

Poll: should we lie to beginners?


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gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
Of course we shouldn't lie, and of course we shouldn't teach incorrect theory, but no need to make the relatively simple facts more complicated than necessary either. We should tell new photographers about things like exposure, DoF, noise etc. in a way that takes into account how our cameras actually are designed to work (like for example the fact that shutter speed, f-stop and ISO are coupled together via the cameras metering). Think that DPR has found a reasonably good balance in the learning section :

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/exposure/exposure
Will I get the same exposure if I shoot f/5.6 1/100 ISO 400 as f/2.8 1/100 ISO 100? 'Cause some people are telling me I won't, and others are telling me I will, and I don't know who to believe.

I want to shoot f/5.6 because I want more DOF but everyone says the higher ISO will make my photo more noisy. Some other people told me if I shot mFT instead of FF, I could get the same "good DOF" at f/2.8 with mFT as I do with f/5.6 on FF, but because I'll be at ISO 100, the photo won't be so noisy.

I want more DOF, but I don't want the noise, and I don't know what exposure has to do with any of this or why I should care.

Can you help explain it to me, please?
OK. First thing first, which is to learn how you get a properly exposed image that will look most alike the scene/subject you want to shoot. Your camera has three controls, the shutter speed, f-stop and ISO, which in combination can do just that. You can try to choose Manual mode on your 6D, and use live view with 'exposure simulation' (WYSIWYG) enabled. Now you can see directly what happens when changing one of the three variables. The image will become either darker or brighter, and if changing one of the variables made the image too dark or bright, then you can change one of the other variables and get an image with the same brightness as before. Lots of different combinations are possible, that all will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer.

Now, besides controlling the exposure/brightness of the image, the three variables also have what we could call secondary effects. The f-stop will control how much DoF/diffraction you'll get, the shutter speed will affect the amount of shake/blur
and the higher ISO you choose, the more noise the image will have.
Whoops !! I'm taking a shot and need significant DoF and the subject is moving fast. I set my f-ratio and SS accordingly and find that I am 3 stops below ETTR. What, pray tell, do I do with my ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on the noise?

--
gollywop

D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
I was talking about 'properly exposed' images, which 3 stops below ETTR isn't. If your image is 3 stops underexposed, then you are effectively shooting at an ISO that is 3 stops higher than the camera says, so your final image will probably have a bit of noise.
You are a prime example of a person who had no idea what the proper notion of exposure is all about. You would do yourself a great service if you would stop objecting and start learning.

Of course my exposure above is proper. If I tried to increase it, I would either have lost DoF that I need or gotten motion blur that I want to avoid. How would you deal with that?

All along I've had the feeling that you really don't understand what all this is all about, and now I know for sure that is the case.

--
gollywop

D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
In the post you replied to I defined a 'properly exposed' image as an image with the intended final brightness, an image that looks most like the scene/subject you were shooting, and in that sense a 3 stops underexposed image isn't properly exposed. You'll have to boost the brightness of the underexposed image afterwards, or you could just have increased the ISO on the camera. The end result would be pretty much the same in both cases.
 
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
Of course we shouldn't lie, and of course we shouldn't teach incorrect theory, but no need to make the relatively simple facts more complicated than necessary either. We should tell new photographers about things like exposure, DoF, noise etc. in a way that takes into account how our cameras actually are designed to work (like for example the fact that shutter speed, f-stop and ISO are coupled together via the cameras metering). Think that DPR has found a reasonably good balance in the learning section :

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/exposure/exposure
Will I get the same exposure if I shoot f/5.6 1/100 ISO 400 as f/2.8 1/100 ISO 100? 'Cause some people are telling me I won't, and others are telling me I will, and I don't know who to believe.

I want to shoot f/5.6 because I want more DOF but everyone says the higher ISO will make my photo more noisy. Some other people told me if I shot mFT instead of FF, I could get the same "good DOF" at f/2.8 with mFT as I do with f/5.6 on FF, but because I'll be at ISO 100, the photo won't be so noisy.

I want more DOF, but I don't want the noise, and I don't know what exposure has to do with any of this or why I should care.

Can you help explain it to me, please?
OK. First thing first, which is to learn how you get a properly exposed image that will look most alike the scene/subject you want to shoot. Your camera has three controls, the shutter speed, f-stop and ISO, which in combination can do just that. You can try to choose Manual mode on your 6D, and use live view with 'exposure simulation' (WYSIWYG) enabled. Now you can see directly what happens when changing one of the three variables. The image will become either darker or brighter, and if changing one of the variables made the image too dark or bright, then you can change one of the other variables and get an image with the same brightness as before. Lots of different combinations are possible, that all will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer.

Now, besides controlling the exposure/brightness of the image, the three variables also have what we could call secondary effects. The f-stop will control how much DoF/diffraction you'll get, the shutter speed will affect the amount of shake/blur
and the higher ISO you choose, the more noise the image will have.
Whoops !! I'm taking a shot and need significant DoF and the subject is moving fast. I set my f-ratio and SS accordingly and find that I am 3 stops below ETTR. What, pray tell, do I do with my ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on the noise?

--
I was talking about 'properly exposed' images, which 3 stops below ETTR isn't. If your image is 3 stops underexposed, then you are effectively shooting at an ISO that is 3 stops higher than the camera says, so your final image will probably have a bit of noise.
You are a prime example of a person who had no idea what the proper notion of exposure is all about. You would do yourself a great service if you would stop objecting and start learning.

Of course my exposure above is proper. If I tried to increase it, I would either have lost DoF that I need or gotten motion blur that I want to avoid. How would you deal with that?

All along I've had the feeling that you really don't understand what all this is all about, and now I know for sure that is the case.
In the post you replied to I defined a 'properly exposed' image as an image with the intended final brightness, an image that looks most like the scene/subject you were shooting, and in that sense a 3 stops underexposed image isn't properly exposed. You'll have to boost the brightness of the underexposed image afterwards, or you could just have increased the ISO on the camera. The end result would be pretty much the same in both cases.
Oh yes, I'm fully aware you had an incorrect notion of a "properly exposed" image. You still do.

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
gollywop wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
gollywop wrote:

Whoops !! I'm taking a shot and need significant DoF and the subject is moving fast. I set my f-ratio and SS accordingly and find that I am 3 stops below ETTR. What, pray tell, do I do with my ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on the noise?
Allow me to help, one step at a time. What is determining this ETTR and how do you know you're 3-stops below?
My camera's histogram is determining ETTR (to a good approximation), and I know from experience with my camera's histogram and how the images pair up when assessed in RawDigger that the reading I have is approximately 3 stops below max ADU at base ISO.

Or, I might have applied my desired f-ratio and SS and then temporarily decreased SS till the blinkies began, thereby determining that the desired SS was three stops (eight times) faster than that that effects ETTR.
And, oh yes, I could also have temporarily advanced ISO till the blinkies occurred or the histogram sided out, and determined that I was three stops below.

But now, thanks for chiming in to help, but please quit screwing around and answer the question: once I return to my desired "proper" exposure, what do I do with ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on noise?

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
Of course we shouldn't lie, and of course we shouldn't teach incorrect theory, but no need to make the relatively simple facts more complicated than necessary either. We should tell new photographers about things like exposure, DoF, noise etc. in a way that takes into account how our cameras actually are designed to work (like for example the fact that shutter speed, f-stop and ISO are coupled together via the cameras metering). Think that DPR has found a reasonably good balance in the learning section :

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/exposure/exposure
Will I get the same exposure if I shoot f/5.6 1/100 ISO 400 as f/2.8 1/100 ISO 100? 'Cause some people are telling me I won't, and others are telling me I will, and I don't know who to believe.

I want to shoot f/5.6 because I want more DOF but everyone says the higher ISO will make my photo more noisy. Some other people told me if I shot mFT instead of FF, I could get the same "good DOF" at f/2.8 with mFT as I do with f/5.6 on FF, but because I'll be at ISO 100, the photo won't be so noisy.

I want more DOF, but I don't want the noise, and I don't know what exposure has to do with any of this or why I should care.

Can you help explain it to me, please?
OK. First thing first, which is to learn how you get a properly exposed image that will look most alike the scene/subject you want to shoot. Your camera has three controls, the shutter speed, f-stop and ISO, which in combination can do just that. You can try to choose Manual mode on your 6D, and use live view with 'exposure simulation' (WYSIWYG) enabled. Now you can see directly what happens when changing one of the three variables. The image will become either darker or brighter, and if changing one of the variables made the image too dark or bright, then you can change one of the other variables and get an image with the same brightness as before. Lots of different combinations are possible, that all will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer.

Now, besides controlling the exposure/brightness of the image, the three variables also have what we could call secondary effects. The f-stop will control how much DoF/diffraction you'll get, the shutter speed will affect the amount of shake/blur
and the higher ISO you choose, the more noise the image will have.
Whoops !! I'm taking a shot and need significant DoF and the subject is moving fast. I set my f-ratio and SS accordingly and find that I am 3 stops below ETTR. What, pray tell, do I do with my ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on the noise?

--
I was talking about 'properly exposed' images, which 3 stops below ETTR isn't. If your image is 3 stops underexposed, then you are effectively shooting at an ISO that is 3 stops higher than the camera says, so your final image will probably have a bit of noise.
You are a prime example of a person who had no idea what the proper notion of exposure is all about. You would do yourself a great service if you would stop objecting and start learning.

Of course my exposure above is proper. If I tried to increase it, I would either have lost DoF that I need or gotten motion blur that I want to avoid. How would you deal with that?

All along I've had the feeling that you really don't understand what all this is all about, and now I know for sure that is the case.
In the post you replied to I defined a 'properly exposed' image as an image with the intended final brightness, an image that looks most like the scene/subject you were shooting, and in that sense a 3 stops underexposed image isn't properly exposed. You'll have to boost the brightness of the underexposed image afterwards, or you could just have increased the ISO on the camera. The end result would be pretty much the same in both cases.
Oh yes, I'm fully aware you had an incorrect notion of a "properly exposed" image. You still do.

--
gollywop

D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
OK, then please tell me what the correct definition of a "properly exposed" image is.
 
Steen Bay wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
Of course we shouldn't lie, and of course we shouldn't teach incorrect theory, but no need to make the relatively simple facts more complicated than necessary either. We should tell new photographers about things like exposure, DoF, noise etc. in a way that takes into account how our cameras actually are designed to work (like for example the fact that shutter speed, f-stop and ISO are coupled together via the cameras metering). Think that DPR has found a reasonably good balance in the learning section :

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/exposure/exposure
Will I get the same exposure if I shoot f/5.6 1/100 ISO 400 as f/2.8 1/100 ISO 100? 'Cause some people are telling me I won't, and others are telling me I will, and I don't know who to believe.

I want to shoot f/5.6 because I want more DOF but everyone says the higher ISO will make my photo more noisy. Some other people told me if I shot mFT instead of FF, I could get the same "good DOF" at f/2.8 with mFT as I do with f/5.6 on FF, but because I'll be at ISO 100, the photo won't be so noisy.

I want more DOF, but I don't want the noise, and I don't know what exposure has to do with any of this or why I should care.

Can you help explain it to me, please?
OK. First thing first, which is to learn how you get a properly exposed image that will look most alike the scene/subject you want to shoot. Your camera has three controls, the shutter speed, f-stop and ISO, which in combination can do just that. You can try to choose Manual mode on your 6D, and use live view with 'exposure simulation' (WYSIWYG) enabled. Now you can see directly what happens when changing one of the three variables. The image will become either darker or brighter, and if changing one of the variables made the image too dark or bright, then you can change one of the other variables and get an image with the same brightness as before. Lots of different combinations are possible, that all will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer.

Now, besides controlling the exposure/brightness of the image, the three variables also have what we could call secondary effects. The f-stop will control how much DoF/diffraction you'll get, the shutter speed will affect the amount of shake/blur and the higher ISO you choose, the more noise the image will have. All that probably sounds a bit confusing, but it's all about finding the combination of f-stop, shutter speed and ISO that will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer, while at the same time representing your preferred compromise between DoF/diffraction, shake/blur and noise in the image. With a bit of patience I'm sure you'll figure it out.
...I don't need to know about exposure at all, right? That is, all I need to do is set the aperture and shutter speed I want in manual mode (M) and use Auto ISO to get the right brightness, right? If it's consistently too bright or too dark on the LCD playback (I don't use Live View), I can dial in EC to fix the photo, right? I mean, how far off could the camera be? Otherwise, I can just make the photo brighter or darker with the exposure slider in my RAW Converter / Editor. Also, I can just look at the ISO the camera is using to know if my photo is going to be too noisy, and adjust the aperture and/or shutter speed as necessary to get the best balance, yes?

Am I missing anything?
 
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
Of course we shouldn't lie, and of course we shouldn't teach incorrect theory, but no need to make the relatively simple facts more complicated than necessary either. We should tell new photographers about things like exposure, DoF, noise etc. in a way that takes into account how our cameras actually are designed to work (like for example the fact that shutter speed, f-stop and ISO are coupled together via the cameras metering). Think that DPR has found a reasonably good balance in the learning section :

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/exposure/exposure
Will I get the same exposure if I shoot f/5.6 1/100 ISO 400 as f/2.8 1/100 ISO 100? 'Cause some people are telling me I won't, and others are telling me I will, and I don't know who to believe.

I want to shoot f/5.6 because I want more DOF but everyone says the higher ISO will make my photo more noisy. Some other people told me if I shot mFT instead of FF, I could get the same "good DOF" at f/2.8 with mFT as I do with f/5.6 on FF, but because I'll be at ISO 100, the photo won't be so noisy.

I want more DOF, but I don't want the noise, and I don't know what exposure has to do with any of this or why I should care.

Can you help explain it to me, please?
OK. First thing first, which is to learn how you get a properly exposed image that will look most alike the scene/subject you want to shoot. Your camera has three controls, the shutter speed, f-stop and ISO, which in combination can do just that. You can try to choose Manual mode on your 6D, and use live view with 'exposure simulation' (WYSIWYG) enabled. Now you can see directly what happens when changing one of the three variables. The image will become either darker or brighter, and if changing one of the variables made the image too dark or bright, then you can change one of the other variables and get an image with the same brightness as before. Lots of different combinations are possible, that all will give you a properly exposed image with the brightness you prefer.

Now, besides controlling the exposure/brightness of the image, the three variables also have what we could call secondary effects. The f-stop will control how much DoF/diffraction you'll get, the shutter speed will affect the amount of shake/blur
and the higher ISO you choose, the more noise the image will have.
Whoops !! I'm taking a shot and need significant DoF and the subject is moving fast. I set my f-ratio and SS accordingly and find that I am 3 stops below ETTR. What, pray tell, do I do with my ISO? and what really is going to be the effect on the noise?

--
I was talking about 'properly exposed' images, which 3 stops below ETTR isn't. If your image is 3 stops underexposed, then you are effectively shooting at an ISO that is 3 stops higher than the camera says, so your final image will probably have a bit of noise.
You are a prime example of a person who had no idea what the proper notion of exposure is all about. You would do yourself a great service if you would stop objecting and start learning.

Of course my exposure above is proper. If I tried to increase it, I would either have lost DoF that I need or gotten motion blur that I want to avoid. How would you deal with that?

All along I've had the feeling that you really don't understand what all this is all about, and now I know for sure that is the case.
In the post you replied to I defined a 'properly exposed' image as an image with the intended final brightness, an image that looks most like the scene/subject you were shooting, and in that sense a 3 stops underexposed image isn't properly exposed. You'll have to boost the brightness of the underexposed image afterwards, or you could just have increased the ISO on the camera. The end result would be pretty much the same in both cases.
Oh yes, I'm fully aware you had an incorrect notion of a "properly exposed" image. You still do.
OK, then please tell me what the correct definition of a "properly exposed" image is.
Good god, man, that has been one of the central issues in all these "exposure" threads and the whole distinction between exposure and brightening. Are you now telling me that you have been engaging in these discussions without even knowing what the underlying issue are? Don't you think you should have done your homework before coming to class?



--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
Great Bustard wrote:

In the case of exposure, does the correct explanation, that the exposure is the density of light falling on the sensor and that the ISO setting pre-processes that light, result in "information overload"?
I've heard of processing and post-processing, but what is pre-processing? I see the ISO of the film (or the sensitivity setting on a digital camera) and the intensity of the light illuminating my subject or scene as conditions that I take into account in determining a proper exposure. In what sense would ISO be a form of pre-processing? Are the lighting conditions also a form of pre-processing?
 
jrtrent wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:

In the case of exposure, does the correct explanation, that the exposure is the density of light falling on the sensor and that the ISO setting pre-processes that light, result in "information overload"?
I've heard of processing and post-processing, but what is pre-processing? I see the ISO of the film (or the sensitivity setting on a digital camera) and the intensity of the light illuminating my subject or scene as conditions that I take into account in determining a proper exposure. In what sense would ISO be a form of pre-processing? Are the lighting conditions also a form of pre-processing?
Think of the ISO setting as being like the AA filter, which also pre-processes the photo.
 
tex wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
tex wrote:

# 2 is wrong on its face. #3 is mostly wrong. #1 sounds great, until you dig: What is taught to people has to be carefully calibrated to what the goals of the "course" are and what the audience is. So, there are situations in which # 1 could be "wrong", because information overload can be just as dangerous as too little information or incorrect information. The outcome will likely be the same: confusion.
In the case of exposure, does the correct explanation, that the exposure is the density of light falling on the sensor and that the ISO setting pre-processes that light, result in "information overload"?
Well, this is not what this poll was asking---although it's a poll begun within a certain context, shall we say? The direct answer to your question is still, possibly yes. The audience is important. What sort of beginners? Recently, because of my LightZone Project work, I've had to start learning Drupal. It's not rocket science, but I will say that in a number of the "beginners" classes I've been to, stuff has sailed right over my head---and been in another galaxy for some of the other people. In those beginners classes, it is assumed you have some working knowledge of web page design already, plus HTML5, CSS, and maybe PHP. Other times it's been so basic to be boring. So, this isn't as black and white as you may think, and calibrating material carefully to the intended audience is not as easy as some people think. How many really great teachers did you have? Probably few enough that they really stand out. And as you yourself said said in another thread, commenting on an OP's question about how much he had to know, technically, your answer was that he really didn't need to know this stuff at all to take good pictures.

In the above sentence, I can see lots of "beginners" wondering what is meant by "density" and "pre-processes", engendering a sidebar discussion that moves off into physics, electrical engineering, & etc. Then they might wonder how this related to the controls on the camera. This would not be the way any army I know of would go about teaching raw recruits how to handle a gun. And it wouldn't be a description I'd use for certain groups of people. For others, a far more fleshed out and exacting description might be more desirable.
The problem with this poll is that it skirts the area of "loaded question" and logical fallacy. It's true of a lot of polls, the questions being so limited and un-nuanced so as to shoehorn people into responding a particular way, even though that is not how they actually feel. it's a common legal tactic as well.
Let's just limit the poll to "exposure", then. How say you?
I go back to the audience. Just who are they? Middle schoolers? Affluent middle schoolers or ghetto middle schoolers? People in a retirement community with their first non P&S camera? Harried soccer moms? Executives like my father (A brilliant man in business, but there is no way he'd have the patience to listen to any of this....)? My mother wouldn't understand it at all. BTW, she was the creator and first executive producer of Wall Street Week, B.S. U of MD, Phi Beta Kappa, MLA Johns Hopkins, Fulbright Scholar. Her most advanced camera for close to 3 decades was an Instamatic (which was really mine, dammit!). Recently she upgraded to a POS P&S.

I think the poll is meaningless the way it is written (and actually I strongly suspect disingenuous, based on its rhetoric...) because I can imagine so many different "beginners". My decade's worth of college teaching reinforces this in my mind. Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate to use the above description to a collegiate beginning photography class, because I could safely assume that the students would have had enough science to comprehend it without having to explain it further.
How about this, then: does the beginner need to know about exposure at all? And when a photographer gets to the point that they do need to know about exposure, shouldn't they understand it correctly?
I guess I should get back to my Rhein II piece...
If you run into Gursky, ask him what he thinks about exposure. ;-)
 
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:

... please tell me what the correct definition of a "properly exposed" image is.
Good god, man, that has been one of the central issues in all these "exposure" threads and the whole distinction between exposure and brightening. Are you now telling me that you have been engaging in these discussions without even knowing what the underlying issue are? Don't you think you should have done your homework before coming to class?
A couple of years ago, Steen reported that (when used), his cameras were used to record JPGs only, and that he (at that time) had never sorted through, or post-processed, any of the shots.
Re: Steen's gear and photography
Steen Bay wrote:
Detail Man wrote:

I see from your DPR gallery "gear list that (in addition to owning a FZ28 like me, you own a G1). And I see that you are quite a Canon and Fuji fellow, as well (with quite a lens collection, indeed).
Not Fuji, but lots of Canon stuff and a bit Panasonic. Most of it is (unfortunately) just collecting dust. These days I'm mostly shooting with my SX10/SX40 'stuper-zooms' (JPEG-only, of course ;-)).
... I find absolutely no images from you on the internet, whatsoever. (What I think may well be your) Flickr pages only feature your favorite images by other people .

I'd be interested in seeing some of your favorite personally accomplished photographic efforts !
And so would I, but the problem is that that I enjoy the shooting much more than the post processing. Guess that I have about 80-90k images waiting on the HD, and just to find/select the 1-2% that deserves a closer look would take months. Wish that i had a web gallery, but maybe it'll never happen.
Talk is sometimes somewhat engaging sometimes, but imagery can say much more about what we actually do with out little photographic machines, and how we "see" through our cameras, etc. ...
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/39843386

Don't know what actual photographic activities have transpired since that time, or whether his time has been spent on the internet discussing weighty issues with "the best and the brightest". Perhaps Steen might tell us about any actual photography activity (including any RAWs) since ?
 
Great Bustard wrote:
moving_comfort wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
.

What's annoying is that the correct theory is no more difficult to understand than the incorrect theory, in this case, so there's no downside to teaching it correctly.
You nailed it, sir!
Correct theory is only difficult to deal with if you've been taught incorrectly and have been living with that misconception for years.
And there are plenty here who are rather defensive on that point.
Yes, I'm more and more beginning to think that this is indeed the case. Some of the "resistance" is very difficult to understand except by introducing the possibility of irrationality. What has me particularly intrigued is the degree to which pseudo rational arguments are advanced to support the irrational positions.

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
gollywop wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
moving_comfort wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
.

What's annoying is that the correct theory is no more difficult to understand than the incorrect theory, in this case, so there's no downside to teaching it correctly.
You nailed it, sir!
Correct theory is only difficult to deal with if you've been taught incorrectly and have been living with that misconception for years.
And there are plenty here who are rather defensive on that point.
Yes, I'm more and more beginning to think that this is indeed the case. Some of the "resistance" is very difficult to understand except by introducing the possibility of irrationality. What has me particularly intrigued is the degree to which pseudo rational arguments are advanced to support the irrational positions.
Why should discussions in a photography forum be any different than anything else in life in that respect?
 
Detail Man wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Steen Bay wrote:

... please tell me what the correct definition of a "properly exposed" image is.
Good god, man, that has been one of the central issues in all these "exposure" threads and the whole distinction between exposure and brightening. Are you now telling me that you have been engaging in these discussions without even knowing what the underlying issue are? Don't you think you should have done your homework before coming to class?
A couple of years ago, Steen reported that (when used), his cameras were used to record JPGs only, and that he (at that time) had never sorted through, or post-processed, any of the shots.
Re: Steen's gear and photography

Steen Bay wrote:
Detail Man wrote:

I see from your DPR gallery "gear list that (in addition to owning a FZ28 like me, you own a G1). And I see that you are quite a Canon and Fuji fellow, as well (with quite a lens collection, indeed).
Not Fuji, but lots of Canon stuff and a bit Panasonic. Most of it is (unfortunately) just collecting dust. These days I'm mostly shooting with my SX10/SX40 'stuper-zooms' (JPEG-only, of course ;-)).
... I find absolutely no images from you on the internet, whatsoever. (What I think may well be your) Flickr pages only feature your favorite images by other people .

I'd be interested in seeing some of your favorite personally accomplished photographic efforts !
And so would I, but the problem is that that I enjoy the shooting much more than the post processing. Guess that I have about 80-90k images waiting on the HD, and just to find/select the 1-2% that deserves a closer look would take months. Wish that i had a web gallery, but maybe it'll never happen.
Talk is sometimes somewhat engaging sometimes, but imagery can say much more about what we actually do with out little photographic machines, and how we "see" through our cameras, etc. ...
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/39843386

Don't know what actual photographic activities have transpired since that time, or whether his time has been spent on the internet discussing weighty issues with "the best and the brightest". Perhaps Steen might tell us about any actual photography activity (including any RAWs) since ?
That's rather interesting, and somewhat distressing. But I can recall chaps who'd come to class who hadn't a clue as to what was going on who nevertheless didn't hesitate to open their mouths and express their opinions. It was a distraction, to be sure, for all those who legitimately hoped to learn. Invariably, graduation was not an option.

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
Great Bustard wrote:
gollywop wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
moving_comfort wrote:
bobn2 wrote:

In a few recent posts, I have given my views about the well known Cambridge in Colour website, which I believe cannot be recommended to beginners because it contains many factual and theoretical errors (a partial critique is here ). I have been told that the theory is not important to beginners, and that the correctness of the information given on sites such as CIC is only of interest to scientists and engineers. So, the question is, should we be teaching beginners incorrect theory?
.

What's annoying is that the correct theory is no more difficult to understand than the incorrect theory, in this case, so there's no downside to teaching it correctly.
You nailed it, sir!
Correct theory is only difficult to deal with if you've been taught incorrectly and have been living with that misconception for years.
And there are plenty here who are rather defensive on that point.
Yes, I'm more and more beginning to think that this is indeed the case. Some of the "resistance" is very difficult to understand except by introducing the possibility of irrationality. What has me particularly intrigued is the degree to which pseudo rational arguments are advanced to support the irrational positions.
Why should discussions in a photography forum be any different than anything else in life in that respect?
Oh, indeed they shouldn't be -- lest you wish to forgo your entertainment. :-)

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
But choosing to ignore or gloss over, the technicalities of what is going on under the hood when setting ISO or post processing on a computer (which depends on the vendor in each case respectively) until your beginner understands how to use the aperture settings, shutter speed and ISO controls to get the result they are after pictorially, WRT freezing motion and isolating backgrounds in different lighting conditions seems to me reasonable, particularly for a child, and would not constitute a lie to call that setting the exposure. this is a common understanding of the term anyway even if it t is not technically correct by the physics as has been shown.

I believe would be better for a beginner in my opinion. Going into exposure theory why "true" ISO may vary and comparing sensor format performance T stops, calibration and the like, i would say is Advanced topic and if you contradict lesson 1 in order to make it easier to digest, if in lesson 2 (and explain why) yes absolute 100% i say thats OK. as I have said if a print is too dark describing it as looking under exposed by 1/2 a stop, i'm OK with that, it makes it easier to relate back to what you may need to do to get a better result, and if the motion is frozen, background suitably blurred, bumping up the ISO setting 1/2 stop would be the way to go would it not?

"One isn't talking about deep, highly technical, mathematical theory here. One is just considering whether beginners should be given a correct characterization of the fundamental processes they are using. There is exposure and there is brightening. The two are demonstrably not the same. Understanding the difference can help you take better pictures. What beginner wouldn't want to be given that rather than patronizing potentially harmful distortions.

I cannot believe the lack of common sense that seems to plague people on matters of this sort. A proper notion of exposure and the use of ISO is really extremely simple. Yet people keep delving into the junk yard to pull up red herrings, spurious analogies, frantic and desperate outcries to try to sink the obviously correct. You'd think that a proper notion of exposure is Obamacare."
 
How do you teach a beginner runner to compete in a marathon?
 
Great Bustard wrote:

Think of the ISO setting as being like the AA filter, which also pre-processes the photo.
Maybe I get it, but I'm not sure. The presence of an AA filter necessitates certain steps in processing; similarly, any given ISO setting pre-determines certain things done in processing that would be different if a different ISO setting was chosen.
 
attomole wrote:

But choosing to ignore or gloss over, the technicalities of what is going on under the hood when setting ISO or post processing on a computer (which depends on the vendor in each case respectively) until your beginner understands how to use the aperture settings, shutter speed and ISO controls to get the result they are after pictorially, WRT freezing motion and isolating backgrounds in different lighting conditions seems to me reasonable, particularly for a child, and would not constitute a lie to call that setting the exposure. this is a common understanding of the term anyway even if it t is not technically correct by the physics as has been shown.

I believe would be better for a beginner in my opinion. Going into exposure theory why "true" ISO may vary and comparing sensor format performance T stops, calibration and the like, i would say is Advanced topic and if you contradict lesson 1 in order to make it easier to digest, if in lesson 2 (and explain why) yes absolute 100% i say thats OK. as I have said if a print is too dark describing it as looking under exposed by 1/2 a stop, i'm OK with that, it makes it easier to relate back to what you may need to do to get a better result, and if the motion is frozen, background suitably blurred, bumping up the ISO setting 1/2 stop would be the way to go would it not?
gollywop said:

"One isn't talking about deep, highly technical, mathematical theory here. One is just considering whether beginners should be given a correct characterization of the fundamental processes they are using. There is exposure and there is brightening. The two are demonstrably not the same. Understanding the difference can help you take better pictures. What beginner wouldn't want to be given that rather than patronizing potentially harmful distortions.

I cannot believe the lack of common sense that seems to plague people on matters of this sort. A proper notion of exposure and the use of ISO is really extremely simple. Yet people keep delving into the junk yard to pull up red herrings, spurious analogies, frantic and desperate outcries to try to sink the obviously correct. You'd think that a proper notion of exposure is Obamacare."
It would help a great deal if you would learn to use the editor so that what you say and what others have said are made clear by the appropriate quote levels. I've taken the liberty of restoring them to your quote above.

Meanwhile, no one is saying that the truth must be imparted before the necessary fundamentals. Only that, when the appropriate time arrises, the student isn't given a bunch of foolish junk.

Once again, most of the objections I'm reading on these matters are based on interpretations and false issues that simply defy common sense -- sort of like suggesting that we're saying, "let's teach kindergardeners calculus and then get them up to speed on addition (which should be a breeze because they already know integration)".

I have no trouble teaching my grandkids about photography without going into out-of-date, inappropriate, and erroneous distortions. The truth is really pretty simple. Indeed, it's just as simple as the corruptions. I suspect it's only because many people refuse to understand what is correct that they have troubles conveying it.

--
gollywop



D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
Thanks gollywop. it does seem that some will resist in there practices without apparent heed to contrary opinions
"It would help a great deal if you would learn to use the editor so that what you say and what others have said are made clear by the appropriate quote levels. I've taken the liberty of restoring them to your quote above."
I do sense the glimmer of agreement, as you do have to adapt your teaching as technology and understanding advances , I grew up with 9 planets, but i would not characterise that "ISO is part of exposure" view as in any way silly, I believe it is useful to think of it that way, as I argued, even if underlying a more sophisticated approach is eventually needed, and thinking of the lightens / darkness of a picture as it relates to exposure stops never ceases to be useful,
 
Andre Affleck wrote:
Iliah Borg wrote:

If the incorrect information affects the shooting negatively it is a big issue.

Another example would be http://photographylife.com/what-is-iso-in-photography people get
So opening the proverbial can of worms again, does understanding the true definition of ISO bring a shift in paradigm on ones photographic technique?
Maybe let's put it differently, when you look at a shot, how do you know the exposure is correct?
 

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