Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

[Glenn Barber]

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting. The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and said that they may address it if others report a similar problem. So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[Willyee]

I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0 setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.

Willyee.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[BryanS]

I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(

You guys already know how I felt about this issue... for me it was more devastating than the BFS issue which was fixable. Heck, this might be also.

I hope you're able to get Sony to fix this. The same dumb problem existed on the G1, and we had to wait for the G2 to see it fixed... if Sony addresses it without issuing a new camera, you'll really have something to brag about.

Bryan

 

[Ulysses]

I for one don't like that forced (or fixed) wide open apeture f2.0
setting in auto flash mode neither. I don't know why Sony did
this. yuk. :-(
BTW the S75 and S85 have the same flaw.

That's because all Sony cameras have the same behavior.

It's not called a "flaw". It's called an "approach". ;-)

... One that probably we'd like to change.

 

[Ulysses]

I hope you're able to get Sony to fix this. The same dumb problem
existed on the G1, and we had to wait for the G2 to see it fixed...
if Sony addresses it without issuing a new camera, you'll really
have something to brag about.

I agree completely with Glen that we should let Sony know about this, particularly if it affects the kind of shots that we personally and individually take.

Now, here is the thing: Not everyone is going to face the type of situation, and therefore, have the same need as Glen and a couple of the others who have so well described this problem. So what may happen is that you get a bunch of people calling Sony who may not be able to adequately describe what it is that they want the camera to do.

So my suggestion is for those who face the issue and need to see a resolution are the ones that ought to make those calls and file an event # with Sony.

My general feeling with this is that we won't see it dealt with in this camera. Two fixes in one cycle is probably too much to expect, realistically. But perhaps for the future....

It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....

 

[Michael Kim]

It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire
approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in
all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the
Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....

Ulysses,

I don't know if this behavior has existed in all Cybershots. Can you do a quick test on your F505v and see what the default aperture is on flash shots? I don't believe the original 505 opened it up all the way.

Mike Kim

 

[/steve]

I believe they did it to conserve battery power. The wider the lens opening, the less flash output required.

steve

Willyee.

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[KD]

That way you don't even have to complaint too much about unable to see in manual mode.

May be we can "recommend" sony about enable it. How hard could it be? Probably another firmware upgrade...Would you willing to pay for S&H + $50 to get it enabled?

--KD

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[Glenn Barber]

Without a doubt I would pay for a fix to either of these problems. It would be very valuable if my wife could get satisfactory flash pictures of the lids without having to use the Nikon to do it.

The reason the problem is so much more evident on the 707 than it was on other sony cameras is because of the hugh aperature on the 707.

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature in each case?

May be we can "recommend" sony about enable it. How hard could it
be? Probably another firmware upgrade...Would you willing to pay
for S&H + $50 to get it enabled?

--KD

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[Glenn Barber]

Even if it did - it might not be anywhere as noticeable in the result because the 505V max aperature is a full stop smaller - with the result being a much greater DOF.

It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire
approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in
all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the
Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....

Ulysses,

I don't know if this behavior has existed in all Cybershots. Can
you do a quick test on your F505v and see what the default aperture
is on flash shots? I don't believe the original 505 opened it up
all the way.

Mike Kim

 

[Nomad65719]

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between
High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature
in each case?

It looks to me to be about + - 0.5 EV. What do others think?

Max

 

[David J. Littleboy]

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between
High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature
in each case?

It looks to me to be about + - 0.5 EV. What do others think?

I'd think it would be more a matter of the flash exposing a different range of distances correctly: try testing to find the farthest away the flash exposes reasonably at each setting, and how close you can get before overexposure at each setting.

Could be wrong on this: I haven't done this test.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[/steve]

I know it's not a fix, but I seem to recall Ulysses doing a 707 test a couple of weeks ago where he got the aperture to change by changing the metering method.

Am I remembering this correctly?

steve

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between
High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature
in each case?

It looks to me to be about + - 0.5 EV. What do others think?

I'd think it would be more a matter of the flash exposing a
different range of distances correctly: try testing to find the
farthest away the flash exposes reasonably at each setting, and how
close you can get before overexposure at each setting.

Could be wrong on this: I haven't done this test.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[nathan60276]

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model, but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current cameras. Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were finally over all the "problem" posts.

Nathan

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[Glenn Barber]

Dear Nathan

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the depth of field is way too shallow. Manual mode would work for the more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

In my another others opinion - this is a much more serious deficiency than the BFS problems - where you could at least correct the color afterwards.

Nathan

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[Nomad65719]

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between
High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature
in each case?

It looks to me to be about + - 0.5 EV. What do others think?

I'd think it would be more a matter of the flash exposing a
different range of distances correctly: try testing to find the
farthest away the flash exposes reasonably at each setting, and how
close you can get before overexposure at each setting.

Could be wrong on this: I haven't done this test.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

That was my initial thought too, David, but after some tests I believe it is an exposure compensation. I'd be interested to know if you get similar results.

Max

Max

 

[TurboTed]

It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire
approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in
all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the
Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....

Ulysses,

I don't know if this behavior has existed in all Cybershots. Can
you do a quick test on your F505v and see what the default aperture
is on flash shots? I don't believe the original 505 opened it up
all the way.

The S70 defaults to F2.0 for forced flash (and auto flash shots)

It is interesting that it will close the aperture when taking close up pictures of objects, presumably to help keep the flash under control.

Mike Kim

 

[TurboTed]

Without a doubt I would pay for a fix to either of these problems.
It would be very valuable if my wife could get satisfactory flash
pictures of the lids without having to use the Nikon to do it.

The reason the problem is so much more evident on the 707 than it
was on other sony cameras is because of the hugh aperature on the
707.

It is not just the aperture on the 707 which is the same as the S70.

By the way, does anybody what is the difference between
High/Low/Medium flash if the camera shoots with the same aperature
in each case?

May be we can "recommend" sony about enable it. How hard could it
be? Probably another firmware upgrade...Would you willing to pay
for S&H + $50 to get it enabled?

--KD

I called Sony today about the Depth of Field problem with Flash in
Auto Mode on the 707. This is the problem whereby the camera
automatically selects the maximun aperature for flash pictures
regardless of the subject distance, ISO, or Flash Level setting.
The result is a very narrow depth of field (about an inch) and most
of your subjects in family events or group photography end up with
soft focus. This subject has been reviewed in this forum pretty
extensively.

Although I know a number of people in the forum have seen this
problem - Sony said that it has not been reported as a problem and
said that they may address it if others report a similar problem.
So please give them a call at 888 449-SONY

BTW - the getaround for this is to go into manual mode and set the
exposure and Fstop yourself. However, beacause of another design
flaw, the EVF goes dark in Manual Mode after acquiring focus
because it doesnt recognize the Forced Flash setting.

The feature tremendously reduces the cameras usefulness in flash
photography of events and should be easy to correct in the software.

Maybe we can get Phil to go to bat on this like he did with 707 BFS.

 

[David J. Littleboy]

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75, and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits, you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing it harder. It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away, prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[TurboTed]

I have got to strongly disagree with you. No respectable camera
will default to a 2.0 aperature for near flash photography. It
ruins its use in Auto mode for most genral indoor use because the
depth of field is way too shallow.

Uh, you are out on a limb here with your "most". Most people have
found exactly this behavior perfectly acceptable on their S70, S75,
and S85s. (To say nothing of the G1 and the Oly folding
quintfinders.)

For portraits, the F707 flash works fine. (Well, as well as an
on-camera flash could be expected to work.) As long as you are
taking a picture of a single person or object, or small numbers of
people or objects near each other, it's fine. Also, for portraits,
you want the shallowest DOF possible. There are a lot of people for
whom this is exactly the right behavior. Almost all the people
shots I've done have been individual portraits, and (as long as
they lcoked focus, sigh) all have been fine.

The problem is that the F707 is a better camera, and we're pushing
it harder.

That is for sure.

It's Sony's first truly "serious" camera, and they still
have some learning to do.

Manual mode would work for the
more skilled photographers if the viewfinder algorithm wouldnt
cause the EVF to go dark after acquiring focus.

Yep, that's the glitch I'd like to see fixed: a "special viewfinder
mode" that does the right thing. Still, 1/30 at f/4.0 isn't rocket
science and is useable.

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots and this was NOT a error like the BFS problem, but this
is how they intended it to be. If you don't like it then just put
it on the short list of what could be changed in the next model,
but believe me Sony will NOT address this issue for our current
cameras.

Agreed.

Please lets just enjoy this camera now, I thought we were
finally over all the "problem" posts.

Well, I think that pushing the envelope is appropriate, and we
are going to find limitations. For example, my first attempt at
sports shots (bowling) with the F707 failed miserably. The F707 is
quite a bit faster overall than the S85, but the EVF is a lot
slower than the S85 viewfinder, and I just wasn't able to track a
bowler in the next lane over. I needed to get a bit further away,
prefocus manually, and plan each shot so I can anticipate instead
of trying to react. I suspect a Nikon F100 would have just taken
the shots right off the bat, no thought, no problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan