Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

[Pixel Pooper]

Did you read the comments below the article? The author basically admits that Nikon put on a stage managed show for him and he fell for it.

 

[A Owens]

Did you read the comments below the article?

Yes.

The author basically admits that Nikon put on a stage managed show for him and he fell for it.

No he didn't. What nonsense. You appear deeply unsettled by this article. What gives?

--
Alistair Owens
http://www.alistairowens.net

 

[mick232]

Nikon has always said they design their sensors, Sony builds them but Nikon has been designing them since at least the D2.

It probably depends on how one understands the word "design". It doubt that Nikon does the kind of R&D needed to advance sensor technology in each new generation. As an example, consider developing BSI sensors or PDAF pixels on the sensor. That is the kind of technology that comes from Sony.

What Nikon probably does is to take the current sensor tech from Sony and make adjustments.

 

[xPhoenix]

Did you read the comments below the article? The author basically admits that Nikon put on a stage managed show for him and he fell for it.

Maybe Nikon should quit wasting their time and just use non-"nikon designed" Sony sensors. DXO shows that most of the top 10 cameras are Sony, and Photons-to-Photos also shows the Sony cameras performing better than Nikon.

The timing of this article is interesting, too. Why now? After decades of being business? Maybe trying to hype their upcoming mirrorless cameras?

 

[NexLupus]

Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

An interesting read -

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Im surprised that DPReview hasn't posted this or at least made reference to this considering that they recently posted another article from another site talking about how the D850 sensor is fabbed by Sony.

Not saying that the D850 sensor is not fabbed by someone else, the point is that this article makes an excellent argument about Nikon truly designing their sensors regardless of who manufacturers them.

I don't think anyone on the forum ever said Nikon doesn't design any of their sensors at the polygon level. I am fairly sure they designed the D4 and D5 sensors, for example. I've never tested a sensor like the D5's. But because they design the polygons for some of their sensors doesn't mean they design the polygons for all the sensors. The similarities between the design choices of the latest generation of Sony BSI FF sensors and the D850 sensor is way to great to be coincidence.

Jim

 

[xPhoenix]

Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

An interesting read -

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Im surprised that DPReview hasn't posted this or at least made reference to this considering that they recently posted another article from another site talking about how the D850 sensor is fabbed by Sony.

Not saying that the D850 sensor is not fabbed by someone else, the point is that this article makes an excellent argument about Nikon truly designing their sensors regardless of who manufacturers them.

I don't think anyone on the forum ever said Nikon doesn't design any of their sensors at the polygon level. I am fairly sure they designed the D4 and D5 sensors, for example. I've never tested a sensor like the D5's. But because they design the polygons for some of their sensors doesn't mean they design the polygons for all the sensors. The similarities between the design choices of the latest generation of Sony BSI FF sensors and the D850 sensor is way to great to be coincidence.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com

First, the article did mention “at the polygon level”.

Second, every Nikon sensor that has used the same or equivalent Sony sensor has outperformed the Sony equivalent in dynamic range, low ISO and often in high ISO.

So no one says that Sony is not manufacturing the sensor, the article is stating that this manufacturing is done to Nikon’s specifications and design.

I heard this before, but then how do you explain this? Top cameras sorted by sports (low light) score...

 

[NexLupus]

Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

An interesting read -

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Im surprised that DPReview hasn't posted this or at least made reference to this considering that they recently posted another article from another site talking about how the D850 sensor is fabbed by Sony.

Not saying that the D850 sensor is not fabbed by someone else, the point is that this article makes an excellent argument about Nikon truly designing their sensors regardless of who manufacturers them.

I don't think anyone on the forum ever said Nikon doesn't design any of their sensors at the polygon level. I am fairly sure they designed the D4 and D5 sensors, for example. I've never tested a sensor like the D5's. But because they design the polygons for some of their sensors doesn't mean they design the polygons for all the sensors. The similarities between the design choices of the latest generation of Sony BSI FF sensors and the D850 sensor is way to great to be coincidence.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com

First, the article did mention “at the polygon level”.

Second, every Nikon sensor that has used the same or equivalent Sony sensor has outperformed the Sony equivalent in dynamic range, low ISO and often in high ISO.

So no one says that Sony is not manufacturing the sensor, the article is stating that this manufacturing is done to Nikon’s specifications and design.

I heard this before, but then how do you explain this? Top cameras sorted by sports (low light) score...

I don’t know if your truly asking or are simply being facetious.

My point was very simple and easy to verify.

Take the D750 vs. the A7Ii, both using the same sensor. Compare the high ISO, dynamic range, color depth.

Now take the D810 vs. the A7R I. Not the 2 or 3 as these used a different sensor and compare again the high ISO, dynamic range, color depth and also the low ISO capabilities.

If you compare like for like, it is very easy to see that Nikon definitely is getting more out of the sensors due to their design parameters.

You can also do this with the DX cameras against the Sony APSC models. Again it has to be sensor for sensor.

 

[JimKasson]

I don’t know if your truly asking or are simply being facetious.

My point was very simple and easy to verify.

Take the D750 vs. the A7Ii, both using the same sensor.

I'm confused. I thought you said that Nikon designs all their own sensors, right down to the polygons? If that's right, how could a Sony camera and a Nikon camera use the same sensor?

Jim

 

[xPhoenix]

Pixels for Geeks: A peek inside Nikon’s super-secret sensor design lab

An interesting read -

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Im surprised that DPReview hasn't posted this or at least made reference to this considering that they recently posted another article from another site talking about how the D850 sensor is fabbed by Sony.

Not saying that the D850 sensor is not fabbed by someone else, the point is that this article makes an excellent argument about Nikon truly designing their sensors regardless of who manufacturers them.

I don't think anyone on the forum ever said Nikon doesn't design any of their sensors at the polygon level. I am fairly sure they designed the D4 and D5 sensors, for example. I've never tested a sensor like the D5's. But because they design the polygons for some of their sensors doesn't mean they design the polygons for all the sensors. The similarities between the design choices of the latest generation of Sony BSI FF sensors and the D850 sensor is way to great to be coincidence.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com

First, the article did mention “at the polygon level”.

Second, every Nikon sensor that has used the same or equivalent Sony sensor has outperformed the Sony equivalent in dynamic range, low ISO and often in high ISO.

So no one says that Sony is not manufacturing the sensor, the article is stating that this manufacturing is done to Nikon’s specifications and design.

I heard this before, but then how do you explain this? Top cameras sorted by sports (low light) score...

I don’t know if your truly asking or are simply being facetious.

My point was very simple and easy to verify.

Take the D750 vs. the A7Ii, both using the same sensor. Compare the high ISO, dynamic range, color depth.

Now take the D810 vs. the A7R I. Not the 2 or 3 as these used a different sensor and compare again the high ISO, dynamic range, color depth and also the low ISO capabilities.

If you compare like for like, it is very easy to see that Nikon definitely is getting more out of the sensors due to their design parameters.

You can also do this with the DX cameras against the Sony APSC models. Again it has to be sensor for sensor.

Not always. Here is the 810 vs a7r





However, DXO shows the 810 having a very small advantage over the a7r in a few other areas. Is there a meaningful difference? I doubt it.

Anyway, I was talking more about recent cameras, and I don't have absolute faith in DXO, but their testing seems reasonable. Sony rules the top ten, and most of Nikon's cameras, even the D850, are farther down the list. Maybe Nikon has slipped behind and simply can't keep up? It just seems to me that all the "in-house" designing they're doing isn't mattering much for real-world results.

 

[xPhoenix]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

 

[NexLupus]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

What??? take a look at the 14.8 vs. 14.7 dynamic range, and also take a look at the color depth of 26.4 vs. 26, and lastly, it's not the same sensor.

How many times do i have to explain that sensor for sensor, Nikon outperforms Sony when equivalent sensors are used.

As far as High ISO, please note that Sony really bakes their processing as proven by the fact that you can't do Star shots, because of the star eater effect that all Sony cameras exhibit, the point being that he camera reads the stars as noise and removes it.

 

[xPhoenix]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

What??? take a look at the 14.8 vs. 14.7 dynamic range, and also take a look at the color depth of 26.4 vs. 26, and lastly, it's not the same sensor.

How many times do i have to explain that sensor for sensor, Nikon outperforms Sony when equivalent sensors are used.

As far as High ISO, please note that Sony really bakes their processing as proven by the fact that you can't do Star shots, because of the star eater effect that all Sony cameras exhibit, the point being that he camera reads the stars as noise and removes it.

A difference of 0.1 in dynamic range is nothing, and if you look at the photons-to-photos graph, it actually shows that the Sony beats the D850 in dynamic range at almost all ISOs. The D850 does a little better because it has ISO 64, which is not going to come in much handy for most of my wildlife shooting anyway.

Also, 0.4 bits difference in color depth? Insignificant. What IS significant is the better low-light performance.

How many times do I have to say it? Sony cameras spank Nikon in DXO rankings (FWIW). It would be one thing if Nikon's specially designed sensors were absolutely destroying Sony's, but they're not.

I'm simply saying Nikon is wasting their time. They're putting all this effort into "in-house" designs for what? So they can beat Sony by 0.1 in DR? Really? They'd be better off just using the stock Sony sensor, and putting their resources toward better use. I think all this talk of "in-house" design is just marketing hype. Something NIkon IS very good at.

 

[Iliah Borg]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

What??? take a look at the 14.8 vs. 14.7 dynamic range, and also take a look at the color depth of 26.4 vs. 26, and lastly, it's not the same sensor.

What is the margin of error in those? In other words, take to Nikon D850 cameras with sensors from different batches, and show that in DxO measurement protocol DR and CS are exactly the same.

--

About LibRaw | LibRaw

www.libraw.org

 

[NexLupus]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

What??? take a look at the 14.8 vs. 14.7 dynamic range, and also take a look at the color depth of 26.4 vs. 26, and lastly, it's not the same sensor.

What is the margin of error in those? In other words, take to Nikon D850 cameras with sensors from different batches, and show that in DxO measurement protocol DR and CS are exactly the same.

--
http://www.libraw.org/

I was just taking a point as xPhoenix is hyper focused on High ISO, when i specifically mentioned that and other factors like dynamic range, color depth, which he choses to ignore.

On top of that, he chooses to ignore that i said like for like sensor, which this is not as the Sony is a 42 megapixel not a 45 so completely different sensors.

 

[Iliah Borg]

On top of that, he chooses to ignore that i said like for like sensor, which this is not as the Sony is a 42 megapixel not a 45 so completely different sensors.

Are you saying that using different margins amounts to a different sensor? Do you know that the pixel count you are quoting doesn't include service areas, calibration areas, optical black, etc? Have you looked at some sensor data sheets to get some idea of how sensors are configured?

More importantly, how do you define "different", let alone "completely different"?

 

[xPhoenix]

and for a more modern take on things, here's the D850 vs a7riii. For all Nikon's bragging about their D850 sensor, it's still not topping the Sony.



And here

What??? take a look at the 14.8 vs. 14.7 dynamic range, and also take a look at the color depth of 26.4 vs. 26, and lastly, it's not the same sensor.

What is the margin of error in those? In other words, take to Nikon D850 cameras with sensors from different batches, and show that in DxO measurement protocol DR and CS are exactly the same.

--
http://www.libraw.org/

I was just taking a point as xPhoenix is hyper focused on High ISO, when i specifically mentioned that and other factors like dynamic range, color depth, which he choses to ignore.

On top of that, he chooses to ignore that i said like for like sensor, which this is not as the Sony is a 42 megapixel not a 45 so completely different sensors.

I didn't say it was the same sensor. The fact is, the Sony performs just as good (even better by some metrics) than the Nikon. Those difference you're talking about in bit depth will not even be visible. Differences in DR at high ISO and noise will be.

DXO gives them both a score of 100. So, even if it's a draw overall, what did all Nikon's tweaking get them? Time wasted and nothing to really show for it. Why are they trying to reinvent the wheel? High ISO is way more important to me than 0.1 increase in DR, so I'd choose the Sony.

All I see when I read "designed in-house by Nikon" is: hype.

 

[NexLupus]

On top of that, he chooses to ignore that i said like for like sensor, which this is not as the Sony is a 42 megapixel not a 45 so completely different sensors.

Are you saying that using different margins amounts to a different sensor? Do you know that the pixel count you are quoting doesn't include service areas, calibration areas, optical black, etc? Have you looked at some sensor data sheets to get some idea of how sensors are configured?

 

[Iliah Borg]

On top of that, he chooses to ignore that i said like for like sensor, which this is not as the Sony is a 42 megapixel not a 45 so completely different sensors.

Are you saying that using different margins amounts to a different sensor? Do you know that the pixel count you are quoting doesn't include service areas, calibration areas, optical black, etc? Have you looked at some sensor data sheets to get some idea of how sensors are configured?

So just to be clear, are you saying that the Sony 42 megapixel sensor is the same as the 45 megapixel sensor used in the D850?

First, please define "different". Different pixel structure design? Different downstream design?

Different pixel count doesn't necessarily amount to a different sensor. In many ays one can say that even different active areas in mm also doesn't doesn't necessarily amount to a different sensor. Those differences are only one of the factors to consider, and not the most important ones.

I believe that Nikon does have a large part in designing their sensors and then having someone fab to their specs.

You can't fab from specs.

Nikon indeed does have a large part in designing their sensors. Sensor in D850 is not a NIkon sensor.

 

[TimG64]

Fascinating and enlightening article. It seems to fly in the face of other recent threads! Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Iliah Borg]

Fascinating and enlightening article. It seems to fly in the face of other recent threads!

I'm curious, could you please provide links?