NTF Challenge Voting System: Let's go back!

[rapick]

I voted the last Challenge. (didn't send a pic, though). Well, the experience with the new 10 to 1 ranking was very negative. Easy for me to choose the first three, but after that... so difficult, and boring, and definitely useless to decide if to put (let's say) at the 9th place a technically not-so-bad but rather out-of-theme, and less-than-average composed pic, or the other one pretty well in theme, but thechnically flawed and...

The old 1-2-3 voting system was replaced to encourage newbies to participate. The new one didn't help for that (IMHO) and is discouraging (at leat me) from voting!
Do you agree?
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

 

[Muriel S]

I agree with you 100%. After choosing the best three, it's eenie, meenie, miney mo (or however you spell it.) Too tedious this way. The top three usually stand right out, but beyond that, who has time to study each photo in detail? If I ever won, I'd want to be one of the top three - after all, who is thrilled to say "I came in tenth." I also don't bother to enter photos much anymore.
--
Muriel - 4 5 0 0, 9 9 5, 3 1 0 0, W C-6 3, T C-2 E
DPR and Pbase supporter
FCAS Charter Member

 

[Kaj E]

To rank 10 pictures requires a huge amount of mental energy. My attention span is not up to the task, and it is increasingly difficult to rate pictures that you do not think are really good. I agree it is pretty easy to pick the first three. I think that the first 6 is about the max a "normal" human mind can handle. This is why I voted to have a vote for the six first picture, when the idea to vote for more pictures came up.

The fever pictures one has to vote for and the more "accurate" the vote becomes. A vote for the three first pictures is the way to go if we want to find the "best" picture(s). The "accuracy of the vote decreases the more pictures you have to vote for. The present system is aimed at getting every (or as many as possible) pictures a vote.

The voting system has to be designed for what we want: find the best picture(s) or get a most submissions a vote. A vote for the first six pictures could be a working compromise, giving more submissions a vote, and still retain some "accuracy".

I think that voting for the 10 first pictures will decrease the popularity of the NTF Challenge. It is difficult and boring to vote for that many pictures and you get a feeling that the result becomes more of a lottery.

The idea of giving each picture a grade between 0 and 10 will not work alone instead of a vote. Every voter applies their own grading system. To assign a picture a first, second, third etc. place requires a comparison and forced ranking between the best pictures. This grade system would not find a real winner but for sure give every picture a very subjective number.

Let's go back to the NTF Challenge page and cast a vote for (or reconsider)what kind of a voting system we want!

http://www.termotronic.com/challenge/

Kind regards

Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

 

[Sheila .]

--
Regards Sheila
Western Aust
Coolpix 5ooo.

 

[MarcV]

I voted the last Challenge. (didn't send a pic, though). Well, the
experience with the new 10 to 1 ranking was very negative. Easy for
me to choose the first three, but after that... so difficult, and
boring, and definitely useless to decide if to put (let's say) at
the 9th place a technically not-so-bad but rather out-of-theme, and
less-than-average composed pic, or the other one pretty well in
theme, but thechnically flawed and...
The old 1-2-3 voting system was replaced to encourage newbies to
participate. The new one didn't help for that (IMHO) and is
discouraging (at leat me) from voting!
Do you agree?
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

--
Marc Vandenhende
C P 4 5 0 0
http://users.telenet.be/marc-v

 

[gill172766]

!

Do you agree?

I think that the new system is much more encouraging for newbies. Last challenge everyone got some votes, which really makes people want to try again. This system still shows the top 3, but allows others to "have a go", without feeling intimidated. Just my opinion.
Gill
CP 4500
http://www.bytephoto.com

 

[rapick]

have a look to numbers:
"old voting system":
challenge N. 17 --- 54 photos posted
challenge N. 18 --- 57 photos posted
challenge N. 19 --- 32 photos posted
challenge N. 20 --- 37 photos posted
"new voting system":
challenge N. 21 --- 40 photos posted
challenge N. 22 --- 32 photos posted
challenge N. 23 --- 25 photos posted
and if you go to see the number of voters:
challenge N. 19 --- 46 voters for 32 photos
challenge N. 22 --- 36 voters for 32 photos

Conclusion: I might be wrong, but these confirm what I felt myself: interest to NTF challenge is going down. I felt that one cause is the new voting system, and I can see many agree. IMHO, it is not t5he number of photos posted, but their quality to raise interest. Frankly speaking, from the 5th place downward my choice as a voter was fully casual - couldn't have been different - and I can see any added value from that to a serious competition.
Ciao.

Do you agree?

I think that the new system is much more encouraging for newbies.
Last challenge everyone got some votes, which really makes people
want to try again. This system still shows the top 3, but allows
others to "have a go", without feeling intimidated. Just my opinion.
Gill
CP 4500
http://www.bytephoto.com

--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

 

[elias]

...a mixed system. total of ten votes, but less distinction between places. this way we could give points to our favorites, but without much of mental drain. for example:

1 vote at 5 pts
1 vote at 4 pts
1 vote at 3 pts (that was top three)
3 votes at 2 pts (that rounds top six)
4 votes at 1 pts (that rounds top ten)

I voted the last Challenge. (didn't send a pic, though). Well, the
experience with the new 10 to 1 ranking was very negative. Easy for
me to choose the first three, but after that... so difficult, and
boring, and definitely useless to decide if to put (let's say) at
the 9th place a technically not-so-bad but rather out-of-theme, and
less-than-average composed pic, or the other one pretty well in
theme, but thechnically flawed and...
The old 1-2-3 voting system was replaced to encourage newbies to
participate. The new one didn't help for that (IMHO) and is
discouraging (at leat me) from voting!
Do you agree?

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.

 

[elias]

Rapick, thanks for starting this, and everyone - for contributing. It is good to see you folks think how to make it enjoyable for everybody.

I think after collecting opinions here, it will make sense to re-run the Poll on http://www.termotronic.com/challenge with the updated set of options.

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.

 

[Kaj E]

Elias, I think your suggestion makes sence, but it dilutes the value of the top votes (that already was done once when moving from the old 3 place vote). How about the following changes to your proposal:

1 vote at 5 pts, why not at 10 pts
1 vote at 4 pts, why not at 7 pts
1 vote at 3 pts (that was top three) why not at 5 pts
3 votes at 2 pts (that rounds top six) OK
4 votes at 1 pts (that rounds top ten) OK

I voted the last Challenge. (didn't send a pic, though). Well, the
experience with the new 10 to 1 ranking was very negative. Easy for
me to choose the first three, but after that... so difficult, and
boring, and definitely useless to decide if to put (let's say) at
the 9th place a technically not-so-bad but rather out-of-theme, and
less-than-average composed pic, or the other one pretty well in
theme, but thechnically flawed and...
The old 1-2-3 voting system was replaced to encourage newbies to
participate. The new one didn't help for that (IMHO) and is
discouraging (at leat me) from voting!
Do you agree?

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.

What do you think?

Kind regards
Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

 

[elias]

1 vote at 5 pts, why not at 10 pts
1 vote at 4 pts, why not at 7 pts
1 vote at 3 pts (that was top three) why not at 5 pts
3 votes at 2 pts (that rounds top six) OK
4 votes at 1 pts (that rounds top ten) OK

agree! or 10-7-4-1-1-1 if six votes wanted

 

[Jim]

I haven't posted in the challenge lately, until this last one. I didn't realize this time til I started voting that I had 10 votes! And I found myself saying, why?? Keep it simple folks! Most everyone here is a grownup, newbie or not. We can take it if we don't make the top 3. For myself, I've never had a top 3 pic in a challenge, but all that does to me is make me try that much harder next time. Why try and coddle everybody? Keep this simple, and it's loads more fun. To me anyway.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800



icq#47512307
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

 

[jjdesanto1]

I think the idea of separating the top votes a little more is a good one.

However, I'm not entirely convinced that the low participation in the past three Challenges is due to the difficulty in voting. The challenge topics - I believe - were somewhat on the difficult side. Which led to less photos entered, and therefore, less votes.
So, let's put it to a vote!

--
John DeSanto
View my galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jjdesanto1/galleries
C P 5 7 0 0 - Mac 0SX 10.3 - PBase Supporter

 

[Philippe Roger]

I haven't posted in the challenge lately, until this last one. I
didn't realize this time til I started voting that I had 10 votes!
And I found myself saying, why?? Keep it simple folks! Most
everyone here is a grownup, newbie or not. We can take it if we
don't make the top 3. For myself, I've never had a top 3 pic in a
challenge, but all that does to me is make me try that much harder
next time. Why try and coddle everybody? Keep this simple, and it's
loads more fun. To me anyway.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800
icq#47512307
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

Why not a single vote then? After all there is only one winner (who gets to pick the next theme)... and no matter how you slice it, it is Kaj!

Frankly, since the challenge is done all just for fun, it should be encouraging to everyone. I think that if one can't be bothered to punch in 10 numbers, I'd say, don't: just look at the pics and move on... There does not have to be a scientific rating system to determine where one's vote should go: vote with your heart, not your head (warning: does not apply to all elections, lol)

As an aside, in a previous challenge (contrast of your world), I was going to be the single entry left without a single vote, when Elias took pity and gave me one point... and you know what? It did not feel nearly as bad! Thanks again Elias, for that gesture and for all your work.

The diminishing appeal of the challenge is probably due to difficult topics, and other reasons, besides the voting system. It takes just 5 minutes to do it (and I missed my chance last time, I was out of town, sorry). If we can't afford that, it is no wonder why we can't cast and count votes properly, even when it does matter! Enough said.
--
Philippe
http://proger.home.netcom.com
http://proger.smugmug.com

 

[elias]

.............
Why not a single vote then? After all there is only one winner
(who gets to pick the next theme)... and no matter how you slice
it, it is Kaj!

LOL

As an aside, in a previous challenge (contrast of your world), I
was going to be the single entry left without a single vote, when
Elias took pity and gave me one point... and you know what? It did
not feel nearly as bad! Thanks again Elias, for that gesture and
for all your work.

OK there must be a reason I woke up this hour....

Philippe, it was NOT a pity vote at all!!! I gave it a point as it was fun entry that made me chuckle. You know well how it works -- when I voted I had no idea how many points each pic got at the moment, and even if I knew, it would not matter anyway as I voted on a first night, after only four or five other people. ....But I am sure glad I gave it that one point! And you certainly welcome too.

The diminishing appeal of the challenge is probably due to
difficult topics, and other reasons, besides the voting system.

Oh, yes. Like, people being too busy enjoying their D70s. Not to point fingers here at anyone in particular :-D

BTW glad to see you here!

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.

 

[Jokke]

Hi All,

Just wondering, but is it necessary that everybody must give the same number of votes? I mean could you have three to ten votes, and one more button saying "I am finished" to not to cast all of the votes? Then if one eants he/she could cast three, five, or six votes, or all ten of them if wanted.

Regards,

Jokke

 

[rapick]

I haven't posted in the challenge lately, until this last one. I
didn't realize this time til I started voting that I had 10 votes!
And I found myself saying, why?? Keep it simple folks! Most
everyone here is a grownup, newbie or not. We can take it if we
don't make the top 3. For myself, I've never had a top 3 pic in a
challenge, but all that does to me is make me try that much harder
next time. Why try and coddle everybody? Keep this simple, and it's
loads more fun. To me anyway.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800
icq#47512307
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

Why not a single vote then? After all there is only one winner
(who gets to pick the next theme)... and no matter how you slice
it, it is Kaj!

Hmm... it is a tradition of all competitions (starting from the Olympic Games) to have the first 3 on the podium and award them (gold-silver-bronze medals). To consider the best ten makes some sense only where single results are added to form a season championship ranking (such as in Ski World Cup, or in F1 car racing).

Frankly, since the challenge is done all just for fun, it should be
encouraging to everyone. I think that if one can't be bothered to
punch in 10 numbers, I'd say, don't: just look at the pics and move
on... There does not have to be a scientific rating system to
determine where one's vote should go: vote with your heart, not
your head (warning: does not apply to all elections, lol)

Yes, since it's all just for fun, and voting is an important part of it, let's make it simple. Normally, each time I haven't found more than 3 to 5 good pics. I select my champ, and then vote two more that were able to capture my attention. Full stop. Combination of different tastes, AS MANY AS POSSIBLE, will build the final ranking. From the "submitter" side, at the end, if my own pic got even just 1 point, at least it means that one voter found it good, and this means someting to me. What does it mean scoring 1 point in a 10 to 1 vote ranking? One voter just gave my pic his least appreciation, that is nothing!

As an aside, in a previous challenge (contrast of your world), I
was going to be the single entry left without a single vote, when
Elias took pity and gave me one point... and you know what? It did
not feel nearly as bad! Thanks again Elias, for that gesture and
for all your work.

Hmm... how was he able to know that your pic had received no votes??? After that, there is the "Comments" feature to express speciall appreciation/encouragement whenever you think a specific pic deserves these.

The diminishing appeal of the challenge is probably due to
difficult topics, and other reasons, besides the voting system. It
takes just 5 minutes to do it (and I missed my chance last time, I
was out of town, sorry). If we can't afford that, it is no wonder
why we can't cast and count votes properly, even when it does
matter! Enough said.
--
Philippe
http://proger.home.netcom.com
http://proger.smugmug.com

--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

 

[rapick]

--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

 

[rapick]

Hi All,

Just wondering, but is it necessary that everybody must give the
same number of votes? I mean could you have three to ten votes, and
one more button saying "I am finished" to not to cast all of the
votes? Then if one eants he/she could cast three, five, or six
votes, or all ten of them if wanted.

Regards,

Jokke

And how to "weight" votes given each one according to a different ranking scale? Then, why not to introduce possiblity of voting ex-aequo in case you feel unable to choose between two or more? OK, we can make it (voting) many different ways, but IMHO, the simplest, the best!
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

 

[giovanni_u]

It is my turn to give an opinion on this.

I rememebr that the voting system was changed because people found it difficult to give just three votes, when many entries were very good.

It seems that the quality of entries is decreased after changing the voting system; it should be from when I started submitting, perhaps.....

To select 10 shots can be dificult at time, but certainly it is not a major point that can keep people far from the Challenge (IMHO).

With the new system, it is possible to give the yealry stats based on the votes and not only on the top three...

The new system can be corrected giving the possiiblity to vote less then 10 shots, so if I feel that only N (N

In conclusion: whichever the voting system, the Challenge is fun. I do not believe that the voting system can affect it soooo much.

I wait to see what the old, wise people running the Challenge will decide. And, as an Italian comic actor said "non capisco, ma mi adeguo" (I don't understand, but I comply).

Ciao

Giovanni

I voted the last Challenge. (didn't send a pic, though). Well, the
experience with the new 10 to 1 ranking was very negative. Easy for
me to choose the first three, but after that... so difficult, and
boring, and definitely useless to decide if to put (let's say) at
the 9th place a technically not-so-bad but rather out-of-theme, and
less-than-average composed pic, or the other one pretty well in
theme, but thechnically flawed and...
The old 1-2-3 voting system was replaced to encourage newbies to
participate. The new one didn't help for that (IMHO) and is
discouraging (at leat me) from voting!
Do you agree?
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick

--
Giovanni
http://www.pbase.com/giovanni_u