New System Build - Reality Check

[Jim Cockfield]

Doublehelix wrote:

• Win 8 Pro (Yes! Win 8!)

Your funeral! ( just kidding )

I almost returned it yesterday in favor of a Win 7 install disk... still on the fence here...

Note that Win 8 Pro doesn't even include codecs for playing DVDs.

You'd need to buy Microsoft's optional Media Center pack for that purpose.

Of course, you can use third party products like VLC (free) to decode DVDs. But, it's nuts that Microsoft doesn't include that ability in Win 8 Pro (as even Win 7 Home Premium had that feature built in by default).

Basically, they're being "cheap" (trying to avoid paying license fees for codecs with the Win 8 releases).

If you're using Win 8 Home Premium, you'd need to upgrade to Win 8 Pro to even have the option of playing DVDs. If you're using Win 8 Pro, the cost isn't as high ($9.99 to get the Media Center Pack). See this page:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/feature-packs

But, that's still pretty greedy (requiring users to have Win 8 Pro *and* the optional Media Center Pack to watch commercial DVDs), when even Win 7 Home Premium had the codecs for DVD Playback included by default.

Another thing you're missing is XP Mode. With Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, you can download a copy of XP in the form of XP Mode (which was basically a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine) at no extra charge. That way, you could easily run software that wouldn't work on Win 7 (as you'd be running it in a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine (Microsoft Virtual PC), well integrated into the Win 7 environment).

But, with Windows 8 (even the Pro or Ultimate versions), sorry, you're out of luck; as Microsoft no longer offers XP mode with Windows 8.

Instead, you'd need your own legal copy of XP to install in a Virtual Machine with Win 8 Pro (versus being able to download one for free with Win 7 Pro). So, if you have any software that doesn't "play nice" with Windows 8, be prepared to have your own legal copy of XP that you can install in a VM to use that software.

I've also seen reports of issues with Win 8 recognizing network shares (NAS devices, etc.) that Windows 7 worked with just fine.

So, personally, I'd avoid Windows 8 and stick with Windows 7 Pro for now, especially if you're not using a touchscreen device.

--
JimC
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[Jim Cockfield]

Jim Cockfield wrote:

Another thing you're missing is XP Mode. With Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, you can download a copy of XP in the form of XP Mode (which was basically a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine) at no extra charge. That way, you could easily run software that wouldn't work on Win 7 (as you'd be running it in a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine (Microsoft Virtual PC), well integrated into the Win 7 environment).

Basically, if you have Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, you can download XP Mode at no extra charge. That installs a copy of XP in a Virtual Machine (using Microsoft Virtual PC) that's well integrated into the Operating System.

That way, any older software that won't run in newer versions of Windows can be easily installed (since you're basically installing it in a copy of XP that's running in a Virtual Machine inside of Windows 7).

See here for downloading XP Mode for Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/windows-xp-mode

But, Windows 8 Pro no longer offers that option. So, if you have older software that won't run in newer version of Windows (for example, 16 bit software, software using 16 bit installers, drivers, etc.), you're out of luck; unless you already have a legal copy of XP that you can install in a Virtual Machine to run that software. Sorry, the compatibility mode settings available won't let you run 16 Bit software.

You'd need a copy of XP running in a VM to get that kind of software to work (which was one reason Microsoft offered XP Mode in the past, but they dropped that option with the newer Win 8 Pro release)

Personally, I have lots of older software that isn't compatible with newer versions of Windows, requiring that kind of solution.

But, it all depends on what you need to run if you need something like XP in a VM.

Anyway, from my perspective, there is no benefit to running Windows 8 versus Windows 7 Pro with a desktop; and you lose some features (the ability to install XP Mode at no extra charge, the ability to watch commercial DVDs without needing to buy the optional Media Pack that Win 8 Pro would need, etc.).

Of course, you can use free software like VLC to watch commercial DVDs without the optional Media Pack that Win 8 Pro would need. But, it's a shame that Microsoft didn't include those codecs by default, as they did with Windows 7 releases. IOW, they're being cheap (reducing their licensing costs by forcing users to pay more to get the codecs to watch commercial DVDs with Win 8)

Now, Windows 8 does offer faster shutdown and startup speed. But, that's mostly "smoke and mirrors", because they're using a form of hibernate to give you those faster speeds (wring an image that contains some of of what's already running in memory to disk, versus a "true" shutdown/startup each time). I don't reboot my machines very often anyway, so that's not an issue to me.

IOW, if it were me, I'd stick with a more proven OS (Windows 7 Pro) versus compromising and going with Win 8 Pro (since I'd want to install third party like Classic Shell to get a better menu hierarchy back again anyway, and I'd prefer to have XP mode available at no extra charge for running legacy software).

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JimC
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[Doublehelix]

Based on the great feedback here, I am making the following changes:

1. Switching to Win 7 Pro
2. Swapping the 2 SSDs (128 for OS/Programs, 256 for swap/temp/cache) - see below however...

I also have a couple of more questions (will they ever end???):

I ended up going to Fry's Electronics to buy my components rather than Newegg or Amazon. Easy pickup, easily return, etc. HOWEVER:

1. RAM: The sales guy talked me into buying Patriot memory. I had originally spec'ed Crucial at Newegg or as a backup, the G.Skill. I told him I was uncomfortable with Patriot, but somehow he convinced me, and we moved on to the next component. Mistake? Should I take it back and get something else?
2. More RAM: Speaking of memory... the Photoshop optimization site that was referenced earlier (http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/optimize-performance-photoshop-cs4-cs5.html) states that you should use as much memory as your system can handle. Should I go ahead and up the memory 64GB *now* (so that the memory type/manufacturer matches) or is 32 GB plenty? I should probably return the 128GB SSD and just use *one* SSD for both OS/Programs and for the swap/cache drive and use that money towards more RAM. Thoughts?
3. Cooler: The guys over at Tom's thought my CPU cooler was underpowered for this CPU, especially if I plan on overclocking. There always seem to be issues fitting a cooler into a case with tall RAM sticks that have cooling fins. Any suggestions for a better cooler that will fit the 2011 socket? Should I go water-cooled? I have never done this... is it a PITA? Is it worth it? Is there continuing maintenance that has to happen with water-cooled systems?
4. Video card/GPU: Is the Nvidia GTX560Ti underpowered when you compare it to the specs of the rest of this system? Is it worth it to go up a notch in GPU power?

My goal is not to have the best-spec'ed system for the sake of bragging rights, I want something that flies for PS and LR, yet I don't really want to have to baby it or even think about it once it is built and configured. I am dumping a shedload of money on this, and I want to do it right, yet there is no sense in throwing money away (too late??? ;-) ).

 

[Doublehelix]

Thanks. Going Win 7 for sure. You convinced me!!! :-D

--

James

 

[SushiEater]

But I did not select Serenity. Just standard components. Yet it came out to $1600 more than I would have build it myself.

 

[SushiEater]

I think you need to install RAID driver during OS installation for x79.

Intel Rapid Storage Technology driver software V11.7.0.1030 for Windows 7/8 32bit & 64bit.(WHQL)

 

[Jim Cockfield]

Doublehelix wrote:

Based on the great feedback here, I am making the following changes:

1. Switching to Win 7 Pro
2. Swapping the 2 SSDs (128 for OS/Programs, 256 for swap/temp/cache) - see below however...

I also have a couple of more questions (will they ever end???):

I ended up going to Fry's Electronics to buy my components rather than Newegg or Amazon. Easy pickup, easily return, etc. HOWEVER:

1. RAM: The sales guy talked me into buying Patriot memory. I had originally spec'ed Crucial at Newegg or as a backup, the G.Skill. I told him I was uncomfortable with Patriot, but somehow he convinced me, and we moved on to the next component. Mistake? Should I take it back and get something else

Patriot has a very good reputation. Just check online reviews for the specific part number you're going with. But, it's my understanding that they individually test every DIMM stick before shipping it. So, I'd be very comfortable with Patriot.

Of course, you're going to see DOA sticks from virtually every manufacturer from time to time. But, I'd just use Memtest+ to make sure it tests OK using stress tests. If so, no problem, If it doesn't pass, just return it for another set (one of the benefits of buying locally), as if memory works to begin with, chances are, it will keep on working over time.

1. More RAM: Speaking of memory... the Photoshop optimization site that was referenced earlier (http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/optimize-performance-photoshop-cs4-cs5.html) states that you should use as much memory as your system can handle. Should I go ahead and up the memory 64GB *now* (so that the memory type/manufacturer matches) or is 32 GB plenty?

Personally, I'd stick with 32GB. That should be plenty for virtually anything you'd need (in fact 16GB is plenty for the vast majority of users). You could always add more later (as that's an 8 slot Motherboard you have, with plenty of room for more memory if you go with 8GB DIMMs (for example, 4x8GB for 32GB, leaving 4 slots open for more memory later).

IOW, I'd made sure to go with 8GB sticks (and I don't know if Patriot has any like that at the store you're buying memory from). That way, you could install 4x8GB for 32GB total now, then add more later if you ever needed for anything (since that MB has 8 slots). But, you would probably never need more than 32GB anyway (and I doubt most photographers would see any benefit to having more than 16GB).

1. I should probably return the 128GB SSD and just use *one* SSD for both OS/Programs and for the swap/cache drive and use that money towards more RAM. Thoughts?

I have a heck of a time getting formatting to work (so that I'm no still quoting your text while trying to respond. Grrrrrr... I don't like the new editor used in the forums here. So, sorry about the text being red (as if it's your text versus my response). So, I'll just make further responses in italic text instead.

If it were my system, I'd go with a single 256GB Samsung Pro for all of that stuff (OS, Programs, catalogs, swap space, etc. -- as indicated in my earlier posts in this thread). But, I wouldn't bother to go with more than 32GB of memory. 32GB is plenty..

IOW, put the money aside for future upgrades later (perhaps a decent UPS to help out during power outages/brownouts, better backup system, etc (since mirrored drives is *not* a substitute for backups, as you can have malware, human error and more destroying data on both mirrored drives -- so you want to make sure you have a good backup system, too

Cooler: The guys over at Tom's thought my CPU cooler was underpowered for this CPU, especially if I plan on overclocking.

Nah.. that cooler has a very good reputation, and I just don't see where you'd need anything better.

There always seem to be issues fitting a cooler into a case with tall RAM sticks that have cooling fins. Any suggestions for a better cooler that will fit the 2011 socket? Should I go water-cooled? I have never done this... is it a PITA? Is it worth it? Is there continuing maintenance that has to happen with water-cooled systems?

1. Video card/GPU: Is the Nvidia GTX560Ti underpowered when you compare it to the specs of the rest of this system? Is it worth it to go up a notch in GPU power?

Nah. it should be more than enough for apps like Photoshop. I wouldn't upgrade it unless you plan on doing some serious gaming at higher resolutions using ultra settings (and even then, that card should be acceptable)

You'll get diminishing returns with faster cards for image editing purposes with apps like CS6. IOW, anything much faster than a GT 640 is going to be wasted (and your card is faster than that). IOW, you may buy a card that's twice as fast and only see 1 or 2 percent increase in performance for image editing features that use the GPU.

Save your money. If at some point down the road you end up with software that takes better advantage of a newer GPU, upgrade then (as you'll probably be able to get a faster card for less money later on, versus wasting money on a card that's not going to help anything right now, as each newer generation of cards is going to offer a better price/performance ratio.

--
JimC
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[SushiEater]

Also in 30 years and building many thousands computers for a living (but many times people went and bought another name brand once their computer became obsolete so I have no data on failures) I had 2 MB fail after long use (probably because of capacitors) not counting defective MBs right from the start. 1 RAID 0 failure because stupid Seagate did not install proper firmware on both drives. Disk were just falling out of RAID. I am still using this RAID 0 in one of my external enclosures.
One WD Raptor electronically failed but not crashed. I don't exactly remember but I had very few disk crashed because I was always buying quality HDs after extensive research and never something that just came on the market. Especially I stayed away from Maxtor drives.

And I burnt 2 PSUs myself due to overclocking.

 

[SushiEater]

On a home PC and sticking to reasonable level of complexity, I would suggest a Raid0 could be the most cost effective.

With the failure rate of consumer hard disks, I would suggest that solution is insane!

Jesper

I have been running RAID 0 for many years, ever since WD 150gb Raptors came out. Only had one failure using Seagate drives because of the firmware issue. Still using those HDs in RAID in external enclosure.

Have 3 RAIDs 0 now.

So it is not as insane as you think. In fact the other 2 RAIDs 0 are my 3TB and 6TB external backups.

 

[Jim Cockfield]

BTW, if it were my money, I'd probably stick with set of 4x8GB of 1.5 Volt, 1600Mhz DDR3, using something like 9-9-9-24 timing if it's available at a better price.

I wouldn't spend any extra to get 1866Mhz or faster memory (as in your original specs), as you're just not going to see any benefit with faster speeds in real world use. For some memory benchmarks so you'd have "bragging rights", maybe.

For any increase in speed using real world apps, nope. There have been many articles on that subject (much faster speeds may only give you a one or two percent increase in speed with some apps, and no increase in speed with most apps using setups with dual channel addressing (for example, systems running Sandy Bridge Core i7 3xxx models).

With your chipset, any benefit of faster memory would be even less than the negligible increase you'd see with setups using dual channel addressing (since the Socket 2011 chipsets have even faster quad channel addressing with loads of bandwidth to the memory).

IOW, I wouldn't spend anything extra to get faster memory speed if you can find 1600Mhz memory at a good price.

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JimC
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[Doublehelix]

SushiEater wrote:

I think you need to install RAID driver during OS installation for x79.

Intel Rapid Storage Technology driver software V11.7.0.1030 for Windows 7/8 32bit & 64bit.(WHQL)

Thanks. I am going to use the RAID1 array for the data storage only, not the OS drive. I am assuming I can install this later, right? Is it an option during install, or something I need to download separately?

 

[SushiEater]

Are you planing on overclocking?

If you are return Patriot memory and get Corsair. I am not talking memory overclocking either.
I had problems with Patriot even though the tests were showing everything is OK. Right now those memory sticks are in my wife's computer because it is not overclocked.

32GB is more than enough. Don't waste you money. And don't overclock your memory either.

Go for liquid cooling!!!!

Yes there is a maintenance. Once every two years (but I only done it once) I flush the system without even disassembling it. My expansion tank is mounted away from components so I disconnect both hoses and connect one of them to a faucet. I have fish tanks so I have connector for cleaning/siphoning the tanks. I run it for few minutes and that is it. And I use regular car diluted antifreeze (no internal lights so no algae) for liquid. Once a year I add a little liquid to the tank. I keep a very small bottle (2 oz from the ink refill) in the house. I mounted the tank on the other side of the drives and back cover. I remove the cover, unscrew the plug and pour the antifreeze in. It only needs like an ounce or so.

As far as your video card as long as you are gaming it does not matter what video card you have.

 

[SushiEater]

I believe you have to install it during the installation of OS for x79 otherwise it will not recognize RAID.

I made that mistake myself and now I can't attach 2 drives to Intel side. I am running RAID on Marvel.

 

[Jim Cockfield]

IRT your GPU
Note the tests at Puget for GPU accelerated features using CS6. Once you get to a card as fast as the GTX 650, any increase in speed is negligible, even going with a card that's dramatically faster:

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Photoshop-CS6-GPU-Acceleration-161/

Your GTX 560 Ti is roughly twice as fast as the GTX 650 you'll see in their charts:

Passmark Benchmarks for GTX 650 (score of 1829):

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+650

Passmark Benchmarks for your GTX 560 Ti (score of 3532):

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+560+Ti&id=18

IOW, you'd be wasting your money on a card that's faster than you have now for image editing purposes (as you'll see virtually no benefit to a faster card once you get to one that's about half as fast as the card you're already using).

--
JimC
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[Doublehelix]

Thanks very much for the heads up!

 

[Jim Cockfield]

Here's one example of an article testing different types of memory:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4503/sandy-bridge-memory-scaling-choosing-the-best-ddr3/1

Here's another article with lots of tests using Sandy Bridge chipsets:

http://techreport.com/articles.x/20377

Gotta love some of the conclusion page.

"If you're looking to set benchmarking records or to compensate for personal shortcomings, K-series Sandy Bridge CPUs at least make it easy to run exotic DIMMs at blistering speeds. Everyone else can rest assured that using relatively inexpensive DDR3-1333 memory won't cost them much performance in the real world"

Your system with a Core i7 3930K Sandy Bridge "E" CPU and Socket 2011 (X79) chipset uses even faster Quad Channel Addressing (versus the dual channel addressing used by systems tested in those articles), so memory speed is even less important as far as performance using real world apps

So, as mentioned in previous posts, if it was less expensive, I'd just go with 4x8GB of 1600Mhz DDR3 using reasonable timing (CL9, CL10 or even CL 11 should be fine), and I would not spend any extra to get faster sticks (as you're just not going to see any benefit to them for use with real world apps, especially in a system using a Socket 2011 chipset, since you'll have *loads" of bandwidth to memory due to quad channel versus dual channel addressing)

--
JimC
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[Doublehelix]

Thanks as always Jim. I already have the memory, and it is 4 of the Patriot 8GB quad channel sticks (1866). I think it is CAS 9-9-9-24 (from memory). In fact, it is already installed on the mobo.

Sounds like the GPU is sufficient along with the 32 GB of RAM.

Now I just need to sit down and finish the build.

 

[SushiEater]

Jim Cockfield wrote:

Doublehelix wrote:

• Win 8 Pro (Yes! Win 8!)

Your funeral! ( just kidding )

I almost returned it yesterday in favor of a Win 7 install disk... still on the fence here...

Note that Win 8 Pro doesn't even include codecs for playing DVDs.

You'd need to buy Microsoft's optional Media Center pack for that purpose.

Of course, you can use third party products like VLC (free) to decode DVDs. But, it's nuts that Microsoft doesn't include that ability in Win 8 Pro (as even Win 7 Home Premium had that feature built in by default).

Basically, they're being "cheap" (trying to avoid paying license fees for codecs with the Win 8 releases).

If you're using Win 8 Home Premium, you'd need to upgrade to Win 8 Pro to even have the option of playing DVDs. If you're using Win 8 Pro, the cost isn't as high ($9.99 to get the Media Center Pack). See this page:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/feature-packs

But, that's still pretty greedy (requiring users to have Win 8 Pro *and* the optional Media Center Pack to watch commercial DVDs), when even Win 7 Home Premium had the codecs for DVD Playback included by default.

You are being silly here. If Microsoft included this option and increased the price $10 they would be making $10 more per install no matter you needed it or not. I don't play DVDs on the regular bases on my computer so I don't need the option. I play DVD on DVD player and watch it on 65" TV.

Another thing you're missing is XP Mode. With Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, you can download a copy of XP in the form of XP Mode (which was basically a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine) at no extra charge. That way, you could easily run software that wouldn't work on Win 7 (as you'd be running it in a copy of XP running in a Virtual Machine (Microsoft Virtual PC), well integrated into the Win 7 environment).

But, with Windows 8 (even the Pro or Ultimate versions), sorry, you're out of luck; as Microsoft no longer offers XP mode with Windows 8.

Again, most people don't need it.

Instead, you'd need your own legal copy of XP to install in a Virtual Machine with Win 8 Pro (versus being able to download one for free with Win 7 Pro). So, if you have any software that doesn't "play nice" with Windows 8, be prepared to have your own legal copy of XP that you can install in a VM to use that software.

I've also seen reports of issues with Win 8 recognizing network shares (NAS devices, etc.) that Windows 7 worked with just fine.

Some reports does not mean everybody. That would be a disaster for Microsoft. I am sure there are fixes.

 

[kelpdiver]

Doublehelix wrote:

Also note - the software that Samsung provides with the 840 pro will allow you to increase the percentage of blocks reserved. This lowers the total space available, but will improve performance as well as any longeavity concerns you may have. So consider upping it another 5 or 10%.

Not sure I get this (yet)... this is my first SSD drive. Blocks reserved for what? Are these blocks just reserved for non-use? I am not sure I am wrapping my mind around how that helps performance and longevity...

When you edit an existing file on an SSD, it reads an entire block at a time, and then rewrites it with the changes to a new block, then marks the old block as free. (greatly simplified) The trim functions, be it automatic, or run manually, does a lot of garbage collection around this. This practice also evens out the wearing of blocks. It's also done with CF and SD cards. It's not like hard disks where the blocks are in order based on their position.

The more blocks that remain free, the smoother this process is. So you see a lot of advice to try to keep the drive at under 90% (or 80 or 75) full. Most consumer drives reserve ~7% of the true capacity as spare blocks both for this purpose and to replace any that fail over time. Enterprise class units tend to up this to a higher level, some consumer ones have eliminated it entirely.

Samsung's software will let you increase the reserved portion to any percentage you like and take those [logical] blocks out of the drive partition. So instead of having 220gb total capacity, you might have 190, but with 4x the number of spare blocks. This is unnecessary on your OS drive, but may be beneficial on the data drive. Though as we've covered, the fear about write cycles is overstated. The Samsung software will also tell you the number of bytes written to the drives - you'll probably find that the daily writes are not that great.

 

[Doublehelix]

I returned the Win 8 today and ordered Win 7 Pro from Amazon.